Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

I think securing the existing resources is priority before we move to other topics.

I agree council should made another requests for opening of the binaries for power management (dsme, mce), battery charging(bme).

It would be nice if they could open power management parts, but I think that might not be necessary, as long as we can interface with the hardware, we can develop our own.

As for bme, charging a battery is a critical blocker. We need interface specification as a minimum. Charging batteries is not that magical as they claim. I can understand they don't want to disclose their secrets, but would settle even for the less efficient simpler but safe charging algorithm. Any chance of Nokia assisting in that?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

@momcilo - agree, having permission to host firmware and closed component binaries outside of nokia should be priority no 1.

Again - do we have a clue what nokia is thinking about that. If not, let council ask them

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

What we also need is a member of the council here talking with us !.

NO we need ALL the council here talking with us !

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by abill_uk (Post 1064526) ...quote removed, as unwanted and avoidable...

Oh my God, man! You are not even willing to make a single wiki page, and yet you critisise the devs working on CSSU.

Ok, we all have understood and noted that you are all for the continuing development of Maemo and donot want it to see it die. We have also noted your repeated point that Meego is not Maemo.

Now my question is, what are you willing to do personally about this apart from posting here at TMO? You're not a coder, so we dont expect anything in that line.

1. How about testing and reporting bugs and help maemo move forward (with CSSU)? As far as i can see, you have not even installed CSSu till now, fearing instability. So, thats a No.

2. Make donations, or help in other monetary ways. Again, have you donated anything so far? No?

3. Make a wiki page to organise information and as a starting point. You have refused.

So, let me ask again, what exactly are you willing to do, to help the "progression" of Maemo?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Instead of being sarcastic why dont you join in and be helpfull instead of try to be-little people ?.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

a. I am not joining in as I do not have enough knowledge about the workings of Nokia/Maemo Council to give them unsolicited advice and nor do I understand the issue at hand in detail. And I do not open my mouth unless I understand what I am talking about.
b. I try to do my part by testing out softwares, reporting bugs, helping in brainstorming, mockups, creating/maintaining wiki pages and occassionally creating and releasing scripts that others may find useful.

c. And finally I was not being sarcastic. It was/is a serious question: What are you willing to do?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Could people please stop quoting abill_uk in these important and interesting community threads? It always leads only to massive amounts of unconstructive noise that buries underneath it all that is worth reading and discussing.

abill_uk has his own community thread. Move it there.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Short answer to that is when i see an opening i will go for it, untill then i throw idea's is that ok SIR ? ;)

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Abill once again, step back and eat criticism as it is true. Don't fight back in a childish way. Be productive yourself and create the wikipage as you were asked for. You repeat yourself it makes me think you like to read yourself again and again or got some sort of dislexia.

Don't refuse! Start doing!

And do not tell that you have done anything (pictures or it never happened).


For all of you.

Thread cleansing kind of successful.

Please stop fighting - you are wasting your time as there will be someone wrong in the internets any time you check!

This thread holds some good ideas and needs some progress outside of the thread or nothing will happen.

Bring your own effort to the wiki yourself, send the link to counsellors. Join the cssu conversations on freenet and ask what you can do outside of coding to get some progress. Be helpful instead of a pain for forum moderators, please.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Well well well we ask for members of council and what do we get? a moderator instead but at least he gave us some idea's.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

it takes two to tango...
true, abill seems to miss the "internet (chat / forum) etiquette"
(basically, it's a wild wild world and nobody cares. the only thing browsers are certainly interested in is a good argument (aka flame war))
nonetheless, for the last 20+ posts many are personal attacks on abill. an internaut would just hit the ignore button
(i have six ppl on my list that for too many posts didn't post anything but insults & personal attacks)
or ignore a single post "out of line".
abill doesn't seem to have that sensibility, but in this very case, he has been picked on.
and has @ least behaved by not leaching back.
even against poster who kept coming back with unsolicited and unwarranted insults.

EDIT: ups, sorry, seven now :D

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Actually my ignore list is growing by the way but it takes a lot for me to put someone on it just in case they could even be half sensible :(.

I really do feel the way forward is via the council of this community and as many have already said i will only repeat by saying again that they need to make contact with Nokia and see what the latest situation is regarding any hope of release for the Maemo code soo much wanted here.

As for my contribution i will make every effort to to post pics of a more suitable usb fix than anyone has ever posted before on here but that is not on topic with this thread.

The main reason i never got involved with testing cssu was the battery problem and untill bme is solved in a proper way it is pointless to install.

The other problem is the overwriting of important emmc structure making it near on impossible for the noob to re-flash.

I am not a linux coder and never will be now but i know these guys are working very hard indeed when they were active and i fully support in words any further progress on cssu in any way or form as long as it is a forward movement and not one that creates even more problems elsewhere on the os.

Sorry to be off topic a little please resume.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

abill, sorry for the flame wars, i do understand you are a genuine person, with lots of knowledge in hardware, and genuinely concerned about maemo etc.

could you please mind sharing your background a bit to help us know you (and appreciate) you better. Things like age, history with mobiles, what do you do for a living, etc... you can anonymise your background as far as you wish...

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

about open source...
(possibly the source of all the buzz about Android's lack of openness)

A new way of measuring Openness, from Android to WebKit: The Open Governance Index
Maemo isn't even on it, of course but MeeGo is, fifth, three up from Android.

off topic as far as CSSU & open sourcing is concerned but maybe of more interest for the Council...
Open Source community building: a guide to getting it right ;)

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Oh please! Abill was criticising the CSSU and he DID NOT KNOW WHAT IT WAS. He argues just for the sake of arguing.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

that was the biggest joke of T.M.O.... + the fact that he didnt install a single application from extras till date... fearing that he might need to reflash..

But still Acidspunk, others, Abill is a member of our community, lets try to talk him through this (understand him and make t.m.o a better place)... (no other option)

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

This is one of the posts i was reffering too and is the reason the debate goes on.

Sad even if it could be true.

No dis-respect to lma by the way !.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Really, guys, the reported post messages I'm seeing are unbelievable. You would think I was a kindergarten teacher.

What's so hard about chilling out? I enjoy an occasional heated exchange myself but this is beyond nuts.

abill_uk, as usual you're at the center of it. Guess what I see in your future.

Give it a rest, guys. I hate heavy-handed moderation, but it's coming...

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

OK enough is enough i guess so if thay is a threat then bann me now and make sure it is permanent ok.

This community is going nowhere with all the rants and bad talk and i want no part of this.

Genuine for the survival of Maemo here !.

Please read the post in reply to yours on my thread ok.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Pot. Kettle.

abill_uk, I kindly request that you relax a bit and let the folks do some discussion about what options are available, not about what's a mess, or what you see.

Keep this up, you're adding to the problems, not assisting. You cannot learn when all you're doing is responding.

Pull back. Please. Even if for just a couple of days.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Point taken gerbick and out of respect i will do what you just said.

One point i want to make though is that many asked where the poll was going to get Nokia to release the code and i say a poll presented from joe bloggs will have far less impact than that of a representation from Maemo.org.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

OK now ;) .

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

Back from a four day trip. Ironically, those people who have talked in the interim about the inattention, etc., of council are the same ones who make reading the thread extra work for council and others. Anyway here are a few nuggets for me amongst the noise -

I agree it is bad for the community to cycle their attention according to the hw models. We should focus on the continuation of (maemo-based or maemo-derived) open source software as an alternative for those who want it.

I have to humbly suggest that the community has been led by several recent council postings to the mindset that we need to prepare for the future and most likely be self-sustaining even though the point of independence is approx. one year away. There can be no plan in a community governed community until there is agreement in the community. This and other recent threads were important hurdles for the community. Step back and compare the attention to the community aspects and future planning today to where we were one year ago. I think we have reached the point, even though there may not yet be agreement on what the plan should be, where the community is ready to move forward. Although criticized for inaction, it is appropriate that this step has been taken without a declaration by council.

No doubt five council members can't be expected to initiate and manage everything that needs to be done. We need people to lend their skills to the community - volunteer to manage the repos, etc. Council can only address the framework of things.

Perhaps we become the Maemo Foundation or similar. A decision as important as this needs an election. We will have one in about a month or so. The community will decide what it needs to do. A change in organizational structure and role of Council will probably be part of the decision. The community will probably also have to decide its general mission and activities.

For me, I think the mission should be to foster support of maemo-based or derived OSS for cellphones and tablets. The initial focus should be the CSSU and Cordia, but retain flexibility to work with MeeGo project and/or apps.formeego.org if doing so help accomplishes the mission. Hopefully, these things will be debated in the context of the election.

Council is scheduled to have a meeting with Nokia tomorrow. Will be back after that. ;)

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Good to read your post SD69 and as much as i want to comment i am going to hold back untill you inform everyone what happened at this scheduled meeting tomorrow with Nokia.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Ah i forgot to mention that i started an ipetition and a thread regarding this on this community, as this is probably the best kind of petition that can be held i am suggesting the community uses this petition in any way it can be of use.

I am making a formal request to the commitee that they push this ipetition as much as possible for obvious reasons, even though i have started it does not matter what matters is the amount of signatures that can be collected.

Could i have an answer on this please?.

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

SD69, great post and great summary about what we are going to face in incoming months. It is not simple to explain thoughts in a foreign language, but I'll try it anyway.
My questions are: who are we? What does we want?
I second your opinion that our mission should be
If the goal is clear we could have a (little) chance to achieve it, otherwise no way. We already lost some great talented people (qwerty12, smoku...), but we still have lot of them (joerg_rw, shadowjk, mohammadag and many many more). I personally have no skills to steer such a project but I am ready to contribute as much as I can, both from an economical and/or working point of view, and I think this forum consist of a lot of people with some sentiments as mine.
What is needed now is some persons defining the most important steps to take now. If those are persons with a background in people organization and software engineering, better.
It won't be simple, and immediately a lot of questions arise to my mind which I am not able to reply to: deb vs rpm, gtk vs qt, maemo vs meego...
In the end my personal goal is to continue to use electronic gadgets that BELONGS TO ME and not to the corp. that are selling them. I hate to throw away working items, I hate to squander what life and mother Earth gives us, those are my principles, l am not a lemon to squeeze until it has some juice. I for one am very interested in Smoku idea for a "free" tablet also from an HW point of view.
But we cannot forget we live in a real world and compromises are part of that, we cannot live only following ideals.

Every long walk start with a small first step, a lot had already been done, it's time to start walking alone. IMHO We need:
- a name (if Nokia does not resign to every future right on Maemo)
- a goal/goals
- a path
- all of our enthusiasm and skills
- money

Phew!

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Just for clarification, we haven't lost Smoku. Unless someone never tried something bigger than psx emulation ;)

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

o0 smoku's gone bro!

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=303

Really?

(I recommend reading rest of the thread too, at least, after mentioned post.)

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

But if I understood correctly, a Cordiatab (in which I am interested in) should be meego+Hildon UI. Am I wrong?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

You're not wrong, if You keep in mind that running hildon-home and derrivatives, with it's dependencies, will allow most (?) applications written for maemo, to work flawlessly in CordiaTAB, keeping full Meego possibilities, mainstream kernel etc.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

Also, important thing - if not most important - is that Meego is open source "core" of system, where You also need user interface. Swipe UI in N9 is closed source. With Cordia, we have open source core with open source (as long as we don't need to run any closed source parts of Maemo on Cordia) UI.

With CordiaTAB, You can add fully compliant, quite modern hardware (with such missed things as HDMI output, multitouch, etc), that we can order without big companies involved.

Also, keep in mind, that *if* CordiaTAB project will suceed, next incarnation - after 2-3 years - is probably going to be device designed by us, so we can finally achieve goal of focusing on software, with hardware made especially for it (not grabbing every compliant hardware, that big companies are throwing @ us, no matter how flawed - like with N9 or N950).

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Sadly I will have to correct you.. the modified Hildon GTK+ will not transplant well to modern systems and there is a very high likelihood that all apps will have to be modded to run on top of stock GTK+ and Hildon. Stskeeps said once that MaemoPad had to be significantly modded.

There is significant amount of work to be done to replicate the Hildon stack. Just look at how much trouble the Mer project had. They even used a Hildon GTK+ (breaking most other gtk stuff and making it stuck at ancient gtk version)

I'm hearing around that MeeGo Community Edition is looking to transfer more governance roles to community. Maybe that is a direction people/maemo.org/maemo.org council should consider? Comes with people /team responsible to maintain the difficult hardware adaptation parts for N900/N950 and a basic working set of functionality/UI and already working app stack.

What are your thoughts?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

If we follow the legacy maemo path, we have somehow to harmonise with the official gtk/gnome project.

But do we really want to be Maemo devices hardware adaptation team for Meego, and how feasible that is given the relatively modest processing power of maemo devices, or should we follow our own path unrestricted by other entities?

More importantly:
Did Council meeting with Nokia occur?
What are the results?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Yep. pretty much except one has to understand that the governance model in MeeGo is based on meritocracy and people who *do* things tend to get recognized. For example: Stskeeps worked his *** off to enable MeeGo on ARM boards and now he's the MeeGo arm maintainer. Also Texrat worked hard on defining the MeeGo developer device loan program and now he's the man coordinating it (not in a sense that you can get devices from him). This is how one gets into "governance" roles in MeeGo.

This is what the N9x0 hardware adaptation team/Community Edition people are doing. Contributors are more than welcome.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

True, let us not forget the now abandoned Mer efforts before Meego happened.

But still, maemo.org is not part of the meego.

I mean, it is in a certain way, since most of the developers were recruited from maemo.org. So everyone who are able to run meego, have no issues with that.

Bear in mind that In a sense, the things that texrat and stskeeps have done for meego, are irrelevant for the fate of maemo.org. It seems the
N900 might get successful hardware adaptation for meego, which means n900 does not belong to maemo.org anymore. What about abandoned 770, N800, N810?

We have reached the point where there are possibly two branches:

1. Meego branch
2. Still undefined branch for legacy device.

The future of the first one is not threatened at the moment. The second one is uncertain.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

This was the main point I was referring to. HW is useless without SW, but SW cannot exist with no HW! I agree on the fact we have to concentrate on SW but without HW to play with everything we can do is without REAL goals.
So again, which is the direction we should go? The fact we have an HW adaption layer for the 900 is a good step for keeping devices up to date as much as possible. Are we ready to abandon our 770 and 800/810? I think Meego is the the right path to follow now (and a project like Cordia can keep going Hildon desktop for people who likes its interface), but I am reluctant to move on Meego.org (only a lurker there). I - as already said - have no enough skills to take a good decision because I cannot master 'the big picture', but I am ready to follow some (good) suggestion when they arrive and to support a path leading to a 'free' HW coupled with 'free' SW. I mean, not ideologically, but an HW with wich I decide want I want to do and WHEN to dismiss it, not the corp. who produced it.
Again, I am ready to go to a CordiaTab, but we already saw many 'open' projects to fail miserably because what is needed is something USEFUL and NOW. A nice piece of equipment just for the sake of it is totally useless, I have to browse with it, to make calculus, to fix my appointments, to save contacts and to take notes with. And perhaps to read a (free or paid) book when I have some time or to hear (free or paid - I am an old style man with 500+ vynils and 400+ cds, almost all ripped in .ogg) music with it. I don't care to show it to my friends and to say 'hey, look at it and see how cool is it, isn't it??? Nobody has a tablet like mine...'
No, I need something useful and with which I decide which contact had to be synced with my google contacts. I don't want everything of my life to published on Facebook, I decide what to share and what's mine.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Cordiatab looks like excellent point from the point of hardware openness (this still has to be proven). What ever happens with maemo distribution (translate to meego, or branch on its own), the most critical thing is providing hardware support.

For n900 that is done by stskeeps in the form of closed sourced binaries. That excludes maemo devices 770/N800/N810 pretty much. For maemo devices we might have following choices:

1. Nokia provides open source drivers or full hardware specification (meego plan A)
2. Nokia provides binaries through stskeeps as for N900 (meego plan B)
3. We try to work with what we have, backporting features to kernel and rest of open source pieces in order to maintain binary compatibility with existing binaries
4. simply let it die, and focus on projects like cordiatab, or any other where manufactorer is willing to provide open specification or OSS drivers.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

As hard as it can be, I am pro following this path. There's a lot of work already done on the software side, let's concentrate now on an open hardware... At least until we have the chance to buy it. Nokia tried to follow this path and had been squashed - and before somebody say something, I have
N770
N800
n900
PCs with W7, Mac and Linux (1 Debian + 1 Ubuntu) OS
XBOX
Nokia stocks (I am thinking to sell them but my loss is currently at 57%)
So it is not simple for me to accept to throw away all this stuff, but in the end I am at the point where I decided to be free. If this decision means to throw away all this stuff, be it!
But I am ready to take such a decision only if I am not alone in it. The other path could be to buy a small mountain shelter, to forget about tecnology and modern society and to live the rest of my days in peace...

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Sorry, although I am here for a long time, most of the time I've kept lurking occasionally: who and when has squashed Nokia?

Btw: I still own 770, thinking about repairing my N810, and I've signed up for Cordiatab.

I would prefer option 1, perhaps with addition of simplistic UI that can run nicely on those devices, and higher-end devices for those who would like to have better battery life.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

I wouldn't hold my breath on Nokia providing open source drivers for old devices. Especially if they've licensed the drivers themselves from another company.

But what they have done recently is that they relicensed e.g. BME as redistributable binary in non-commercial use to aid the CE effort.