Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Noticed that hat full of money, close to his left feet? ;)

Because if I/You/everyone want to talk about other tablet systems, me/you/they can go to 34632432456 places around net? And, many people - me including - are interested in Maemo, not other systems, so we are here, not there? And we don't want "here" to become "there?" ;)

Sorry for playing with language, but i think it was explained so much times in this sole thread... We need to focus on some thing, not to get "under our wings" everything. We can as good talk here about Desktop systems too, why not? Or better any operating system, or even better any software released anywhere? Can You imagine Wine guys with forum "focused" on talking about all operating systems? Or Debian guys with forum for Apple Mac/Ipods?

Anyway, as I said before - I can't care less for name, as long as main goal - developing Open Source mobile system - is achieved.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Too bad some corporation keeps coming along and taking wads of it and promising I bought something I don't really own. :P ...and I don't necessarily mean just Nokia, here. I just wish they had been better than that.

That's very witty. Indeed! ...except, I'm not sure that THEY, whomever they are at any given site and moment in time, had been here when THIS was originally started by people interested in TALKING... about TABLETS... that were made for the INTERNET... as opposed to the various tablet devices that were mostly being used as PDA's or overly power-hungry laptops missing a keyboard. This site has a certain amount of legacy those 34632432456 sites never had and we've already begun losing good people to said sites. It would be an incredible gain to win some, all or even MORE of those people back and their associates and friends. Savvy?

Because WINE is in threat of becoming irrelevant? Maemo is, and certainly will be, now that MeeGo was spun up and Nokia decided to put their NOKIA branded boots on Maemo's throat. Welcome to the orphaned OS fold.. right alongside the focused forums for old Atari, Commodore, TI (99/4A), Timex (Sinclair), etc. ...or should this forum proceed beyond the orphaned and remain relevant by reverting back to the much smarter original Internet Tablet Talk? I should prefer the latter. It would appear you never really understood the repeated replies to those "explanations" you speak of.

It seems ironic that you're in agreement with me there, but Maemo isn't the most open, nor the only "kinda-sorta open", and not even the best or most well supported by its own creators, out of all of them.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Hey, to be honest, I think that Maemo was "orphaned" by Nokia long time ago. And it seems to manage quite well, even better than with Nokia *very* limited support (cause now You know, that if You want something fixed/added, You must do it Yourself - Nokia won't, so don't even try waiting for them). sorry, but 99% of enhancements, were done by community. Yea, Nokia released PR's, but comparing it to community-driver projects...

BTW, don't use almost-dead *closed* (or open now, but with source code releases ~10 years after becoming officially dead) source systems as argument why our forum shouldn't be focused only on *open* system...

I totally agree with it. Still, Maemo is *most* open from existing mobile systems, and ones supported by manufacturers (Android) aren't even a fraction of such openness. So, despite irritating closed parts, it's logical decision to build totally Open System based on existing one with most Open'ish % of content - Maemo.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Ok now you have your Open Source Mobile System all figured out and well into development..... what device will you apply it too?.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

I am beggining to realise this forum is full of dreamers that do not see reality for what it is.

Reading Estel's last post makes me wonder what planet he is on lol as he still thinks Maemo is the way to go.... oh well.

If maemo dies a death because of whatever reason then where does that leave this community?, as much as i read on here all i see is endless talk about developing this and that but just where is this development meant for and for what device?.

If this community is winding down then to be honest i am not suprised looking at the way it operates but hey prove me wrong here.

The community is looking for new direction ok but where? when? what has to happen to move it to another light ? any idea's?.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

If this community dies, so will maemo.
Not the other way around.

And for crying out loud, read up a little about GPL and copyleft.
They're pretty much immortal.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

You don't get it do you? and you think aimless software development will go somewhere if not directed at a specific area or device? and who would be part of this if there is no goals or targets to reach?.

Or is this community going to be a co-op for any louse that comes along that need hibernation lol.

Like i do not know about GNU/gpl or copyleft?, all i am trying to establish here is where the community will or can go if it pulls away from Nokia, simple as that really.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Welcome to world of free open source development. It´s just living organism that goes _somewhere_ depending on individuals and most importantly it stays alive "forever". If you want effective, streamlined and tightly managed software development then this is probably wrong place.^

Everything here depends on free will of people and their willingness to collaborate and self organize to groups. Just meeting place for people a like. This place has not been nor it will be some developing organization that governs app developing or maemo CSSU developing. If people choose to leave this place then they leave. Currently 1 million downloads per week tells of course totally different story. I would like to see page loads for different areas also. Any historical graphs that some geek can search for us?

It´s good to have plans. But by being drama queen (Sorry but to me your text is just too aggressive) doesn´t get anything done nor has any positive effect on anyone so calm down couple of notches.

ps.
I have had constant stream of patches, tweaks, fixes and apps to my system :| On the other hand I use devel.repo and read constantly TMO/MWKN/Twitter/Maemo-news to cherry pick all the good stuff. It´s bit of work but pays back.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Your forgetting that this is a PUBLIC community and will not be anything as popular if you had your way because the people on here are dealing with real devices that have problems one way or another so you need to look at the kind of talk conducted on here and you will soon realise people are far more "dramatic" than i can ever be.

If your dealing with the general public then you need to keep the interest going and i do not see software development without a specific aim at a specific device being very popular at all, rather it would turn into a specialised dev's community with no specific aim at all.

"This place has not been nor it will be some developing organization that governs app developing or maemo CSSU developing."

Do you realise what your saying here?, if it was not for the N900 and Maemo this community would not have the name it has and non of the above would have happened in any way or form so you kind of reversed everything there as it IS a community that governs apps etc etc.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

I have seen very little "General" public here (Not sure if I understood you correctly). I have met some of this "general" public face to face and they do not even know that they were are able to update their system or add magic items like "repositories" to their system. After all since from beginning line up to N900 has been for quite strictly for (in good and bad) tinkers.

Even thought this is PUBLIC this is still very very niche forum. Remember that!

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

I can tell you from what i hear and talk to different people this forum is a "meeting place" for any of the top end Nokia device owners and certainly for getting answers to problems when Nokia care fail also for modding and tweaking alike, then you get the serious dev's here who really give everything they have to give and this all happens because of specific devices manufactured from Nokia.

You take Nokia out of the equation then what you are left with is pure software litigation aimed at what? so i can not see a community based on the latter in any size because the interest would not be there if development was not aimed specifically.

I think the area your wanting to go would not be the area currently being dealt with on this community today but rather a select group of developers that would take out the agro factor as the noise levels on here can be somewhat deafening sometimes i have to say.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Having just scrolled through two pages of non-productive crap, I suggest such discussions don't a) occur on this thread and b) maybe not even on this forum. Wherever you, lma and whoever else is adding value is.

People have had actions to come up with a suggested suite of tools as part of deprecating Garage for ages. Some features:

• Downloads - mostly dealt with my the repos, but some things aren't actually software for tablets (e.g. tablet-encode)
• Bug tracking - actively discouraged for a while, people should use bugs.maemo.org
• News - poorly used, people's own blogs are better bets; but is there a good service for that? (I use madler's maemopeople.org myself)
• VCS - gitorious or github, but what if people prefer svn rather than the load-your-water-pistol-with-nitroglycerine of git?
• Documents - transition to MediaWiki?
• Forums - poorly used, AFAICT.
• Mailing lists - no obvious replacement. Is there an open equivalent? Google Groups maybe?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Got it.

May as well shutdown the forums now then. Maybe whatever money "the community" can save Nokia on the hosting costs can be applied to other essential items to keep them going a little longer.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Sorry, but i wonder if this was pure sarcasm, or You actually believe in what You've just said?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Mailing lists are the easiest things to replicate...stick mailman on the new server (I'm fairly sure this is what's running already) and job done! ;)

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Don't ask me, ask Jaffa. Seems pretty straightforward to me. If we shouldn't continue discussions on the future of the community on tmo, as it is "poorly used AFAICT" per Jaffa, tmo is obviously expendable.

For the record, I believe ITT contributed significantly to the "community" despite the snr. TMO did as well. After the N900 was released, a lot of new people found their way to tmo. Unfortunately, this decreased the snr (the price of being less of a niche).

Oddly, it seems to me, the people who wanted maemo/meego to succeed the most, are those who despise the additional noise (consumers) that same popularity brings. Fortunately, Nokia has solved that problem for them.

And yes that was pure sarcasm. Get rid of tmo, and you would lose a whole lot of talent. That's ok though, it was routinely preached that the only people the "community" couldn't live without avoided the forums, and only could be found on the mailing lists. I'm guessing the only people this "community" can't live without is Nokia.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

You just aint got a clue have you !!!.

You rabbit on about "non-productive crap" while you seem totally blind to the situation, for gods sake man get a grip !.

knock knock hello is there anyone in there??????.
yes it is YOU i am knocking jaffaa because your now making yourself look very stupid indeed sorry to say.

I give up with this so called "council" i really do.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

MANY dev's have now left this what used to be a really good forum and people are leaving Nokia and TMO by the streamload so yes i agree with your points totally whilst others seem to be blinkered.

"Having just scrolled through two pages of non-productive crap, I suggest such discussions don't a) occur on this thread and b) maybe not even on this forum. Wherever you, lma and whoever else is adding value is."

This totally shocked me when i read it, what the hell.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

As it's been said before, I think the technical parts are simpler to take care of. (note that I did not say easy, nor cheap, nor quick).

But what will be the unifying force and the draw for this site past maemo?

ITT era: NIT users looking for a forum. Nokia churns out the hardware and they fund core development of subsequent OS, frameworks and other software components to draw developers, potential integrators and whatnot.

maemo era: similar, except the users part is disproportionately more than the devs. The opposition platforms have grown and matured as well, sucking away some of our devs and users to migrate to them. (Note that the opposite migration happens in much much less quantity).

meego era:
- no new hardware on maemo
- no corp funded software development on maemo
- no new users to draw when the 2 points above stops (well this could be seen as a plus for some, heh).

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

And your making about as much sense as mud so please stop trolling will you !.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

I may be wrong, but I think Jaffa mean app forum-like part of garage, not TMO. If he *really* mean TMO, that would be absurd, of course. Still, this may be big misunderstanding, so make it clear, before You (two) start catfight, please ;)

Don't feed the troll pls.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Take a look at ysss public profile and you will see all he has ever done from day one in my opinion is TROLL and that is very clear to see when you read his posts, he has started 7 threads from day one and often deletes his posts when he realises it stands out too much as trolling.

Many of his posts are crytical of other users on here and he is a classic flamebait starter as i have often found out with him in the past.
He is obnoxious, rude and is neither a developer or an engineer in any way or form and has never contributed anything but the latter so please spare me your ctitisism as you are no better in my opinion then he.

I am being realistic of this forum and its troubled future, trying to make suggestions for the good so at least be thankfull for that.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Guys, chill. This isn't the place for fighting.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Can we please dispense labeling opposing viewpoints with the "troll" label and instead offer constructive debate and arguments? I'd like to see some genuine answers to these questions instead of seeing people getting shunned.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Err, I was talking about features of garage.maemo.org. It provides a GForge implementation of forums for each project. That you didn't know this proves my point they are poorly used.

Please reread my post in light of the fact that I had quoted sjgadsby talking about Garage's features. I then expect an apology.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Apology not likely mate because your words were

"Having just scrolled through two pages of non-productive crap, I suggest such discussions don't a) occur on this thread and b) maybe not even on this forum. Wherever you, lma and whoever else is adding value is."

and as your reffering to THIS thread it means your downing everyones words that you disagree with and not allowing people to freedom of speech.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

To be honest - the flying-off-the-handle which followed on from a critique of the GForge features which are relevant to developers and users of Garage proves that constructive conversations in this thread are drowned out by people who are more interested in revisiting the same points again and again, and talking more than actually coming up with a plan or a way forward.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

And if you read my posts you will see i was not only concerned but giving some thoughts on the way forward for this community.

As this is a Council thread then anything to do with this community will be posted here obviously unless you can let everyone know where to post what?.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

In all fairness, I was confused and thought you meant this forum as well.

The interesting thing is that all the features in garage are great for getting new projects with no resources off the ground...but in my experience you get exactly the same problems with SourceForge - hardly anyone uses the features available because the devs don't use them and the devs don't use them because the users don't use them.

If the desire is indeed to do away with garage, then I guess if you could automate our "new project system" to create a new forum for each project here that could work (and you'd probably want something similar for mailing lists)...but I'd worry about the main page becoming unmanageable. I'm not sure if TMO's forum software can handle another layer of depth either. The generic forums (applications/games/etc) have a lot of noise too, it's almost as if they should be nested underneath the OS platform they apply to.

..or look at how other large multi-project organisations handle this and mimic their infrastructure. Getting the software infrastructure is usually easy - it's all OSS after all. The difficulty comes from handling the load.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Can I ask a potentially stupid question?

Why is all of this being decided in such a vague way so close to the release of Harmattan and was not discussed after the release (and downtrend) of Fremantle?

What was the prior contingency plan?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

I'll apologize for missing the garage part. Perhaps in the future it would be best to separate widely divergent ideas into separate posts for clarity. Apparently, I wasn't the only one who was confused by your post.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

The release of Harmattan has brought Nokia's maemo/MeeGo device strategy into sharp relief. Previously there was a possibility that Nokia might continue using maemo.org for it's community infrastructure. This is now definitely not the case.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Do you know why they will not use this community no more?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Yes, abill_uk, this is a good question. Seems like after investing in nurturing a community, to the point they paid for its meeting place and for people and machines assisting its thriving, they thought this very community might be unfit for the new marketing mission.

The devs, at least part of them, have been attracted towards FMC also through the deployment of the N950 DDP.
I think that [high or low power]-users and power-lusers like me, simple enthusiasts or evangelists, generic vanilla-type geeks have been kept back or counted as unproductive at all. All in all, the N9 is a much more mainstream device than the NITs or the N900, and given there are devs enough to make an app store flourish, it will sell by itself, without the need for a bunch of unproductive geeks chanting its merits.


So, bye bye TMO :) you did the best you could do, but times they are a-changing

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Not to be anti-council or to introduce facts that no one wants to recognize, but the current council wasn't elected, but nominated by acclaim, right?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Yes i agree but you know i seen this coming long time back when i argued what the hell is a dev to do with a closed device just WHERE is the sense in giving a device to a community that was not 100% open is beyond my thinking and the very reason it was doomed before it got started.

Nokia had complete control over the software development for the N900 and it knew it ! so what expectations could they realistically have from developers?.

I have seen some blunders in my time but i can not even hazard a guess as to why this blatant pisstaking took place from Nokia :confused::confused:.

Yes i agree the N9 and as many have said on here, it should have been released long time ago but obviously the reason it was not released was because of the software side and the reason MeeGo was pushed, as hard as it could be, on this community to draw in the dev's, as successful as it was is the reason we have the N9 as advanced as it is with a MeeGo os.

Look to the top right corner of this screen and you will see what i mean ;) so many people are not only confused but when it all comes out in the wash they will feel somewhat used and abused by Nokia.

For Maemo to be scrapped in favour of MeeGo after punishing them with closed components to work around, making the task a thousand times worse than it should have been to write software for further development of the os of the N900, is no wonder it has crashed flat on its face !.

You can not write anything to a closed component !.

Now i see why the dev's started to leave long time ago and some of the best have been here too i might add ! but if you look at my history you will see why i complained and argued with many people on here and why i started the poll to attempt to get feedback from everyone regarding the release of the much needed code from Nokia for the N900, THAT thread was closed by a well though out moderator's decision :confused::confused::confused::confused:.

So yes i agree with you and say for sure we have all been hoodwinked by Nokia :(.

Hence why they have gone down the pan, they are paying for there mistakes and have this community to prove just how loyal there fans and dev's were and could have stayed if not for bad decision making on Nokia's part.

The BIG question is.... WHAT NOW for Maemo.org? and as Maemo is dead.................. or has Maemo.org also used everyone?.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

I wouldn't say "acclaim" is the right word (in the most common meaning); maybe "selected because no-one else would get off their arse and volunteer [and thus give 6 or more candidates for 5 positions, meaning an election is required]".

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

That kind of figures !.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

And another thing i would like to point out and is also a big question mark.....

The N900 code could not be released to this community for what everyone said was LEGAL reasons, so how come it was released to stskeeps for the development of MeeGo?.

Now we see MeeGo taking off as it has stolen all the dev's that were working on Maemo leaving Maemo dead as a doornail, why has this happened ask yourselves!.

I forgot to add.... IF Nokia had released all the needed Maemo code to this community for the N900 then Maemo.org would have been completely different with much success to show ! think about that ok.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Who would want to be on a council of a dead end forum? sorry to say but true as everyone will find out soon no doubt.