Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

@abill_uk
didn't follow your poll / thread so can't talk about the specifics, but could it be that the thread was also in flame war with lots of insults & low flying arguments? if so, i noticed that the admins seem to have a very low latency for that :(

more generally, but also applicable to this thread, i feel, a lot of those fiery arguments could be avoided if ppl could agree to disagree.
of course, that requires above all respect for the other side's point of view.

and the willingness to formulate one's opinion in decent words.
which is useless if ppl don't want to invest the time to read the post but hit the quick reply button with some non-constructive remark
this may also help avoid that arguments become personal and insults start flying, but is of course not of any help with trolls.

just my 2 cents :D
have fun

EDIT: can i get a receipt for my tax declaration? :rolleyes:

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

You have summed that up just about perfect and i cannot agree more with your points !.

This community is accessed by the world and that means anyone and everyone can join with no qualifications whatsoever, now IF that was not the case then we would have had a community based purely on members with the right qualifications for the meaning of Maemo.org and what it stood for.

That in turn would have made Nokia make the decision much easier to release in full as any developer requires the needed code for the development of Maemo and because it is a PUBLIC community, Nokia would have had problems from the off to open Maemo.

This community was wrong from the start being open as it is allowing anyone access and the very reason it has failed, the noise on here is astoundingly LOUD.

I was never prepared for the childish and humiliating backstabbing that goes on on here and could never really come to terms with it even to date, i hate it.

I held back on anything i could have done in full because of this and would have given much more than i have to help the dev's do there work but i felt it was pointless not long after i joined in feb last year.

The whole community is wrong from the top to the bottom, i feel it could have been thought out and put together lot lot more professionally.

Far too many people with varied interests beliefs and goals to unite any kind of organisation and that shows in the threads on here, instead of a common interest = the development of Maemo.

It is nothing more than a horrible battleground sometimes.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

can't help comparing it with Linux/GNU distributions for computers.
the proprietary packages are NEVER provided in the distro's repositories; NVidia, ATI (/AMD), Broadcom and many others have been providing proprietary drivers for their products for years.
of course, if NOKIA (or even TI?) don't want to support their products / chips in this way, this can't work for Maemo :(

EDIT: thinking of it, the kernel (provided by the Linux Foundation........) does include proprietary elements, such as network drivers aso; not sure however in how far those are reverse engineered code :confused:
EDIT+: i read somewhere that Google was in conflict with L.F. because they wanted drivers included in the general kernel that are specific to Android devices (mostly wireless drivers, if memory serves well)
where does one draw the line between OSS and... plain dumb functionality? obviously L.F. wants to stay OS compliant.

MeeGo taping into the "computer" side of (NON-)OSS etc. could benefit from that.
but that still wouldn't help us with OMAP now, would it?

as to the potential future...
i wonder in how far being more professional is what Intel is trying to achieve on MeeGo.com?
and (maybe?) the Linux Foundation providing a more professional site adminitration :eek:

copy that, alas :(

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Your points are indeed very valid and actually very simple to understand and whilst others do not conduct business in the same way as Nokia i feel a lot will be learned from Maemo, the way it was put together and the way it was presented to the field of development.

As you can see my posts on this thread are written in a different context simply because, and i have to say this, i am not dealing with idiots as the majority of threads on this forum seem to be abundunt with.

EDIT "but that still wouldn't help us with OMAP now, would it?"
What should have happened that clearly did not was the intergration between Intel - Nokia and public development thus the reason it all fell apart.

You know the old saying, when in rome etc.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

you know the old Roman motto, right?
bread, wine and... games
a political device based on human nature...
too often threads degenerate into gladiator fights 'cuz some of the ppl that come here are only looking for entertainment, not development of any sort :|
once the fight has started, ppl take sides and quickly...
but we are not adding psychoanalysis to the topics of this thread, are we? :rolleyes:

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

And we have the perfect example right on this thread on the tags !, i made a typo and it has been posted as a tag, your point proven !.

PS NO i will not correct my typo because i am human and we all make mistakes, only some do not feel the need to pick them up and throw them !.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

maybe MeeGo was NOKIA's conclusion that Maemo was a business failure?
over a year ago they already had concluded that there is no way (for NOKIA) to salvage Maemo, thus they left it & took anything they could save to MeeGo & are now making a new start there?

"FIRE IN THE HALL!!!" ¦-))))))))))

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Then stupid decision simply because devs available on here are far more capable than Nokia could ever be so why be greedy for whatever reasoning and hold on to something your never going to further develop, holding the rights and giving it away for further FREE development is the way to go.

stskeeps was clever in that he knew devs would follow him from Maemo.org knowing full well he needed them,that is the reason for his "leaving thread" THAT is a clever move lol.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

not greedy, simply (business) rational.
they have invested for about 5 years in Maemo.org
now they have moved on and have closed the case.
remains to be seen for how long they will still support Maemo.org; possibly an open question, depending on how the community continues supporting "dumb" 770, N8x0 and N900 users and thus providing NOKIA a service (indirectly)?
but they don't want to have an OSS Maemo 5.5 / 2011.x competing with their new development & thus spreading dev ressources, maybe?

why
well, like you concluded too, there is a lesson to be learned from the Maemo.org business case; NOKIA learned it and decided that it was easier to make a new start then to try to fix it.
can't blame them on that, now, can you?


can't comment on that per se, think it was before "my time"
i finally bought my 1st N900/MID barely a year ago, even after NOKIA had already left it :eek:
but maybe you weren't the only who "hold back" because of the "" atmosphere"" (or whatever you want to call it...)
maybe stskeeps felt the same & agreed with NOKIA that it was easier / more effective to make a new start then trying to fix "old stuff" (no offence)?

EDIT: if you think of it, what NOKIA is doing is that not much different from what RedHat is doing.
support the OSS community (sort of, @ least with devices & apparently some infrastructure @ MeeGo (?)) but then using that for a devices they sell, with parts of code which are #NOT# open-source.
RH wouldn't be able to sell many server boxes if companies could get exactly the same stuff from CentOS (or Oracle w/ unbreakable Linux)
actually Oracle is becoming a problem (they have the money to replace the parts RH doesn't want to share & compete on the same market, (database) server market)
thus RH tried to tighten their grip on "their code"
maybe, NOKIA is getting dead serious about MeeGo devices?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

There was something wrong in the creation of Maemo.org right from the beggining and i will try to explain why i say this,

if Maemo.org was to be the official "further" development of Maemo then why was it not seen that closed components were going to create massive problems right from the off so why was it allowed to go from there?.

Many people do not realise that to write an os or implement changes to an os the developer(s) MUST have access to source otherwise it is a pointless excersize, so what happened ? i will explain very easily,

developers set to work on apps etc and then submitted them for approval but what level of approval? to see if the app actually run without conflicts?
whilst all this was going on Nokia must have realised just how this was going to end up especially when it seen all the conflicts and problems occuring due to conflicting code that just did not fit in with the os, and in some cases so serious the device would shut down due to overwriting of critical code.

Now realise Nokia or someone responsible for the creation of Maemo.org made a huge mistake in allowing it to function as it did knowing full well the consequences of holding back essential component drivers which has been explained away as legal crap, not allowed to reverse engineer?, it got to a point when i thought oh my god this is going bad very bad, this was round about a month or so before the last Maemo update from Nokia PR1.3.
At that point there was a multitude of NOFIX and looking within the threads reading all the software conflicts occuring i just knew it was bound for disaster but for some strange reason everyone carried on battling with closed source.

At this point after trying to point out on here the problems, all i got was shot down in flames as if i was insane (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=52788) this is just one of the threads i started way back over a year ago ! and if you look at my history you will see many, all to do with the problems of the N900.

Now we are at the gate of closure and all because the wrong people dealt with the opening of Maemo.org in my opinion because not one was obviously a software or hardware engineer who could visulise what would happen because of closed components.

It is therefore my opinion Nokia never supported Maemo.org at all but in fact made sure it would bring huge problems for Maemo.

Now i would love to know from the council just what will happen to Maemo.org, is it to stay open ? is it to change name or is it to be shut down?.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

If you like, you, and anyone else who is interested, can go back and read the thread in which the maemo.org community decided on the creation of a new, independent MeeGo.com forum rather than a rebranding of Talk.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

There are many pages to that thread and yes i did start to read it some time back and will read the rest but when will we get an official explanation as to what happens? and where will that explanation be? Thankyou in advance.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Sorry, but you've run in so many directions:

• About which "happening" specifically are you asking right now?
• Who would you consider official enough to provide your desired, definitive answer?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Maemo.org of course :confused:.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

i agree with your impression that Maemo was flawed from the beginning, but i don't think it was sabotage on NOKIA's part.
i remember reading an article a few weeks ago explaining the evolution of NOKIA & NOKIA's management; one of the key moment (the beginning of the end, so to speak) was about ten yrs ago when the company turned from "technology oriented" with engineers crawling all over the place to a... PROFITABLE company where a lawyer or MBA could become manager.
i think Maemo's failure is plain dumb incompetency due, like you point out to lack of technological understanding :(

already reflected about that...
if the Maemo community keeps supporting the Maemo customers, maybe NOKIA will keep financing it?

is there right now a need to change the name?

Maemo is not going to get any new devices (running on real Maemo code), but maybe it is possible to ease the transition by porting as many apps to MeeGo / Harmatan and maybe some new stuff back?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

This thread was created to discuss the future of maemo.org and possibly decide on actions that should be taken to prepare for the chosen path. Unfortunately, your rants regarding Maemo source code and other peripheral matters have repeatedly derailed discussion.

As for officialness, we're a community. Nokia won't be providing us with an official direction. They currently provide money. Inevitably though, that money will stop flowing. That's about the limit of their involvement in this discussion.

The maemo.org Community Council is a representative and coordinating body, not a governing one. They'll have an official answer to provide once the greater community determines that answer.

At times such as this, open source communities shift even more toward meritocracies. Our decisions for the future are bounded by resource limitations. Money is certainly key, but skill and time investment are at least as critical. Should we find funding for a repository server, but lose everyone with knowledge of, and willingness to work with, the autobuilder and other related key tools, that limits our choices.

So, in the end, everyone in the community is welcome to have his or her say in the matter. However, those who back proposals not just with votes, but also commitments to, and proven track records of, helping with the actual work, will have greater influence than those who simply talk.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

AHA ok please do forgive my misunderstanding here as i thought Maemo.org would either be shut down or re-named, if it is the case it carries on then ok so be it but that means we still have all the troubles on the threads we have now?.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

apologises accepted ;)
it was nice throwing around ideas for the last few hours with you, but you know what?

i think they don't merit (that much) of our talk time :rolleyes:
i can't help feeling they'd rather stumble around in the dark then get even only a candle.
as the song goes
i think i'll get out enjoy some sunshine :D

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

How could a device that was limited via community accepted microeconomics be considered a failure?

I'd be more willing to state that the intended handoff of the assets from Nokia to the community and the communication of how it was going to happen has been the failure.

The devices are basically dead. Nokia sold them, no longer supports them, no longer builds them (all but the N9 that is). It's now a fight over the software, OS, the closed bits (losing battle there) and how this community would be able to update, continue support that's in question now.

And it's not looking too well.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Then the answer is clear ... get Maemo released to this community then it can really come into the limelight and show the world what can be done with Maemo.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

It's not that easy. My personal take (likely wrong) is first, the community needs infrastructure in place with either the understanding that Maemo still belongs to Nokia, the closed bits need workarounds, and the supporting bits from repositories, garage, need to have their level(s) of priority sorted and then the OS handed over to a willing and active committee and developers.

The disputes range from where should this happen, what should continue forward - I see no reason for Brain Storm for instance - and so forth.

Were it so easy as you had described, this thread would be 1 page long.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

This is also the bit i fail to understand... why did Nokia give this to stskeeps and neither he nor Nokia will as yet give to this community in any way or form?.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Where did you hear that Nokia gave access to the entire Maemo source code to stskeeps? Large chunks of Maemo are open and available (or superceded by the updated Meego versions), but other parts remain closed (whether due to 3rd party restrictions, or Nokia not wanting to spend the time/money required to clean up & vet code) and require working around. I've not heard of any of these being made accessible to anyone outside Nokia though (and if they were, they'd almost certainly only be made so under stringent NDA conditions).

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

He told me so himself on this forum, go look on the poll thread i did as i think it was on there.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

I'm happy to see abill learning the past few pages. It would've been better if you came in with less abrasive tones and entitlement issues and just ask nicely for questions about maemo's history.

1. Why did the community gather around NIT and maemo, -knowing- it's not perfect and fully open?
- Was there any better alternatives back then?
- Were you in a position to bargain back then?
- It was the leading FOSS mobile development platform with very high market potential, coming from the #1 mobile device producer brand.
- Did you know MeeGo was coming back then? Android would be as big as it is now, etc?

Hindsight is 20/20.

2. Why doesn't Nokia release the sourcecode to the community?
- Maybe it's due to licensing issues from the components used inside.
- Maybe it's due to legal issues, being that maemo is not only a project name but a commercial brandname associated exclusively to Nokia devices.
- Maybe they don't want chinese KIRFs to show up and make use of their investments and make up news headlines.
- Did you EVER ask anyone from Nokia about this or did you just whine whine whine against the community about this, which essentially and obviously wanting the same thing (but seems to understand the subtleties and sophistication of the matter more than you have).

3. Did Nokia gave access to the entire Maemo source code to stskeeps?
- Here is your giant whine thread: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=73419 and it's a pretty painful memory seeing as it was a big reason that stskeeps left. He tried to communicate with you but you've managed to resist understanding somehow.

I don't know how old you are, but please think twice, thrice before posting undigested questions and comments in public forums. Especially when you're about to make an assumption that everyone in this community are idiots by doing so.

Heck, you may be the biggest one.

ps: no, those are not official answers from anywhere. those are just reasonable line of thoughts to follow, imo.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Don't forget that STSkeeps had done work for Nokia.

Edit: STSKeeps hit me up via Twitter to correct me. He had been doing work for Nokia with the hw adaptation people.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

the devices limited sales number were not failures, but more or less intended outcome.
just like the N9 is only going to be available in limited quantities;
thus, if ppl are getting all excited about it, there won't be enough for everybody, so they have to limit the number of markets where the device will be sold.
eh?
that's macro-microeconomics ;)
¦-))))

the failure i was alluding to in this case is the fact that Maemo's development always got hampered by those closed components, indeed but that the community's structure did not allow for release of closed components.
see your discussion about what if anything stskeeps got and under what terms if any :confused: :rolleyes:
thus the structure respectively the lack thereof of the Maemo community is the failure. like we discussed w/ abill, this probably wasn't malevolence of NOKIA but merely lack of insight into SW vs. HW development (in OSS e-c-o-s-y-s-t-e-m :eek: )

not a failure, not possible under profitable terms for NOKIA, thus Maemo became a collateral :(

none of the Maemo devices was ever intended to be a commercial success, alas.
not even the N9 (see 1st §)

EDIT: however, that doesn't mean there won't be any more MeeGo devices from NOKIA :cool:
huh?
remember, Elop doesn't know the difference between Maemo and MeeGo; thus even though they told him / his notes said "there won't be anymore Maemo devices..." he said "the N9 is the last MeeGo device"
aaaa, whatever... am i the boss here?!?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

The more i read on here the more it stands out as a complete and utter shambles, it exasperates me how and why Maemo.org was started with no access to the Maemo source code.

Probably the most usefull thread ever started on this forum was my poll to get Maemo released to this community and many people say it was a huge rant and whine yet look at what is happening before your very eyes right now on this community ? it is grinding to a halt, dev's have left and now Maemo is a fraction away from being totally forgotton.

But i know nothing i am a meager morcel that simply said something is very wrong a long time back.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Way to over-dramatize things a bit. Maemo.org was started to give Maemo device owners access to news, code, friendly talk and a continuance of the spirit that was prevalent at ITT.

The dealings around the source code was tacked on later. If it was ever brought up during the transition from ITT to TMO, I would be surprised.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Well it should have been brought up because without it no real advancement could happen on Maemo as it is now being proved on this forum.

Maemo could take on a new lease of life IF the source was readily available dont you think?.

MeeGo will never work efficiently on the N900 because of lack of ram and cpu speed.

What do we do with all the 900's now?, put them in a draw to gather dust lol or do we do something constructive with them?.

"Maemo.org was started to give Maemo device owners access to news, code, friendly talk"

Dont you mean code that crashes the N900 lol and as for friendly talk, do you really mean that lol.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Could have, should have, would have... neither are relevant now.

And no... it should have been brought up when it was, when Nokia abandoned it.

No. So far, the key people that could have given Maemo a better lease on life have been either systematically run off by folks that constantly antagonized them or the delays for such decisions like now. It would take a developers program and/or community incentive to make folks stay.

And right now, 200+ of the better developers have N950's in their hand. New shiny-shiny things in their hand with new technology and they more than likely aren't coming back.

Even I got rid of my N810 and N900.

Then show your anger at Nokia. They decided on that hardware, input method and RAM amount.

Do something constructive. Have at it. And let the folks that are trying to create something to come back to (read: community) do their part. Simply stated, don't run anybody else away.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

After scrolling through 4 pages of quite useless repeating all-over-again the same thing in different words, I suddenly lost interest in this thread ;) I think all important things were said on pages *max* up to 10, and we're not going to achieve anything by just chatting here, until time for real decisions/voting come.

Also, I start to understand why council/volunteers prefer to talk about important things on IRC/mail/whatever. Unless thread is titled "[Development] Question about parsing database data from sql3 lite to R&D mystic geeck gauge" (i.e. it require knowledge, instead of pure flamewar/sophism/whatever "skillz"), it get overrun by our main troll, "council haters", and guys-who-just-like-to-talk in few moments.

So, happy talking in upcoming 493 pages of another epic thread. Hope to *not* see some of You in new one, ~A.D 2012 ;)

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

*raises hand*

Guilty.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Me too :D.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Now your dreaming :p

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Then you know absolutely nothing about what this community needs at this period of time.

I'll go out on a limb and say whatever the council needs from me and I can do it, it'll be done.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

All this community needs is the Maemo source code simple as that really.

But to say i know absolutely nothing? OK.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Holy **** you're dense. If they have the source code... then they will need repositories. Some of the repositories have code that does not belong to anybody but Nokia or third parties that might not like that stuff out there. They will need people to support the code, further the code, put the code together. You need developers. People that understand the drivers. People that are willing to workaround the closed bits.

And the stuff that's in the OS, not all of it can be open sourced for various reasons.

So as it stands, what you're asking for just won't happen. So instead of asking the impossible, why don't you ask what is possible instead. And for once, ask then silence yourself for a qualified answer that's seemingly going to have to be put together for you in one simple sentence since you have yet to piece it together for yourself from this entire thread, and learn from it.

You cannot learn while typing or talking. You have to actually read or listen. I doubt you're willing.

Yep. Said it. Meant it.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

"It would take a developers program and/or community incentive to make folks stay."

Your words not mine and this is what should have happened from day one WITH the source code because without it it does not work hence why this community is now winding down...... but like you said.... i know nothing.