Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Maybe the second part of this http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...74&postcount=9 answer explains reasoning behind Cordia a bit better.

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

So maemo has following problems:

• limited number of developers for obsolete devices (770, N800, N810, N900) thanks to developer devices. :mad:
• no active device (well that actually depends on the fate of N9, but it seems Nokia does not want to associate it with maemo.org),
• uncertain future for infrastructure after one year,
• orphaned by Nokia.
• closed sourced binaries for drivers and other stuff, which effectively prevent creation of modern alternative for obsoleted devices. (this actually my main rant for some time) :mad:

What next:

1. Find new sponsors?
2. Find new devices?
3. Merge with meego?
4. Merge with ubuntu/debian/angstrom/gentoo (difficult thanks to binary blobs)?
5. Simply die in one year?

At the moment angstrom has far lesser community, but unlike maemo, it's still active.

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

This is all wrong and i can prove it for sure if people stop branding me a TROLL.

First and formost the council of this community with all dues respect need to START listening to its members and IF it ever has to report anything in quiestion.

It repeatedly fails to do this !.

This community has not really achieved the goal of what it should be all about The Progession of Maemo.

I personally do not see any movement at all that will or could happen now or in the future with LF, there are things wrong and the council need to address the problems and NOT go quiet which is the case.

Your all at the wrong gate and addressing the wrong problems IF it is indeed to progress Maemo.

PLEASE start listening to your members.... PLEASE !!!!.

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

Your getting very close and i agree with what you have just said BUT this community has got to start being active in the right area's instead of sinking in litigation and legalities.

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

SD69 you think i am talking in the wrong subject of your opening post but what i am in fact telling you and everyone is your all wrong and have been from day one !.

This community is sinking simply because it has not done what it should have done to progress Maemo.

It is going to take some explaining because no one seeems to want to see the light.

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

I am appalled at this community sometimes and frustration is not the word i tell you.

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

abill,

with all due respect, i think you are missing a couple important points

1st, as Daneel pointed out, the council hasn't any power; they can ask, they may suggest. that's about it.
in a way you are right in saying that the community has been sitting on its @$$ and was simply coding along. they got and they still get a new device every now & then, sometimes w/ hw keyboard, sometimes without. nothing new under the sun, sorry :(
is it time for a change? see

2nd, which nobody seems to want to realise; NOKIA has stopped developing pure Maemo devices, true. have they completely abandoned Maemo? i don't think so. we can still download firmwares & install all the software we want from repositories or even OVI.
& if they are willing to fund formeego.org/com, this seems to indicate that they are still behind the community.
sure, you can blame them for having split the development community, but, honestly, what is the difference between OS2008 vs. OS2010 and fremantle vs. harmattan?
developers who started to be busy w/ OS2009 weren't busy w/ OS2008 any more, were they?
and even now, installing packages from extra-dev or testing. means you can't run certain apps from extra any more.

yes, the community has been careless. who isn't?
repeating it over & over again isn't bringing anything new, is it?

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

I don't think anyone here still thinks Nokia is developing Maemo devices.
I will go so far to say that I am pretty sure everyone is firmly aware of the commercial death of Maemo, hence community led projects to FIX whats left of it and make it more usable - CSSU.

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

that's where i can completely sympathize w/ abill get nuts about this community :mad:

sorry to spill the beans, but...
Maemo never was a commercially viable project. it has been kept alive by NOKIA since day one.
a year and a 1/2 ago, the support got less active, that's all.
are they still paying the bills YES or NO?

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

Ok i will answer you one by one,

1, A council should be there to represent and help the organisation they are council of and even to this day they are very silent and i am not suprised because in my opion it is made up of the wrong kind of people, by that i mean they do not communicate with us as members and when they do it is there way or no way.
Many experianced people are members of this community , what is left of them of course !, and i feel strongly that the council should be replaced with some people with attitude rather than what we have right now.

2, I am not really interested in the legalities or troubles of LF simply because i am not an avid supporter of them, i do not run linux as an os anyhow because of it's limitations, never have done never will do.
What i AM interested in is a road to progression of Maemo and that is where this community should be at, who the hell is interested in LF if they do not achieve even a fraction of what members of this community really want ?.
Am not interested in the sob story of LF, i just see it as time wasting on a community that has not really benefited from them at all.

This is Maemo.org and the sole purpose of it's exsistance was to make Maemo the os a much better place to thrive in the N900.

It is now at the point of closing down on Maemo and reverting to MeeGo and for what? for the very same thing to happen yet again !, have people never learned anything from the Nokia experiance?.

What has to happen is not a decision one person can make but hell at least try before it finally sinks, time is our enemy right now and i feel enough time has already been wasted, the reason i am trying to wake everyone up in the area's of importance to Maemo.org.

MeeGo was supposed to have been advanced as an os for the N900 and quite frankly dont hold your breath waiting for that to happen !!!.

We really do need to get a grip and realise what has happened within this community because where i stand it is no further forward that day one in many respects.

Many of the talent has left and will continue to do so unless something can be done to keep what is here and possible attract some and more back.

THIS THREAD will no way do that as it is so off track to the REAL problems it is unreal.

All i want to see is progression of an os that has been totally dumped and looks like being dumped by this community now because of lack of the right kind of people within it.

I can be sarcastic and deliberatly off topic and have done so on this thread but i am doing so in an attempt to stop a closure of Maemo from Maemo.org.

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

if this maemo.org dies one day (i hope it doesnt), there will be two contenders for the top reason...


1. Corporate world (Nokia, Intel, and whoever sucks its balls, aka LF)

2. you_know_the_troll

I really hope it is not #1

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Could you all please stop derailing yet another thread?




Unfed troll is a dead troll.

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

The difference to Debian, Angstrom etc. communities is, that they are focused on the software and are working on the software. The hardware is only a mean to run the software and they embrace and welcome every single one able to.

This community is focusing on hardware. The software (Maemo OS) is only a mean to enable the hardware, which noone really cares of and accepts whatever the manufacturer of the device throws at.
With the presence of new hardware, the older hardware is abandoned en-masse.
With the absence of hardware, the community is dying or jumping ships.


Without changing the focus, this community won't survive.

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

This community should have been focusing mainly on the software side and its problems to do with Maemo.

Yes your right if it does not focus on the software issue then it will die i feel.

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

smoku,

i think it was somewhere on the Cordia thread that you pointed out the difficulty of building (& after that maintain) a distribution.
are you now suggesting that we should do that, nonetheless?
i think i have to comply with abill's doubt that the community right now is in any shape or form to pull off such a feat :o

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

funny we are back on this very thread were we already had this discussion, in a way....
what's needed here is leadership, not management, right?
(doing the right thing versus doing things right)

unfortunately, very few leaders are also good managers, so, starting with a a community like this one where there is no management to speak of (sorry, no offence to the council, but like Texrat pointed out on his performance sheet beginning of last year, the council doesn't even have a mission statement (i.e. manage Maemo.org ?))

@ Texrat: any improvement on that in, what, 20 months?

one could of course lead away & hope that the community will manage itself, but... let's be honest, it simply won't work.

two problems;

one, developers don't really care about administrative issues, as long as they can code away; as you pointed out yourself, the best coders already left b/c they don't want to invest in "govern" the ship out of this troubled situation; they prefer to go code somewhere else... :(

those who are not here to code, well, look around... flame wars, insults, anything goes. you'll never get a consensus out of this.
@ best agree to disagree :rolleyes:

might save a new born with that approach ¦-)))))))))))
might :|

EDIT: like i concluded last time, maybe NOKIA got to the same conclusion a year & 1/2 ago and decided to leave Maemo to its own device and give it a new try with MeeGo
one may wonder what management NOKIA has right now, but leadership obviously couldn't care less about Maemo :(
or whether Intel provides more leadership? possibly for tablets, but obviously not for mobiles.
let's not even talk about LF, right?

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

Yup. Unfortunately I cannot offer a solution or direction for this community, as I don't have a clue.

All I can offer is a point of view and a hope that it may nudge someone to come up with a solution, idea, direction... anything.

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

Please put aside differences between communities, I did not propose any detailed plan, just some very, very rough ideas.

Your last statement is excellent description of the current situation.

So what now?

I have a strong feeling Council is unsure on how to proceed.

Now is the time for every clever boy and girl to show what they are really made of.

This is the real challenge, not the stupid code guessing game some/most of us were wasting time.

Do we fight for survival, or just change habitat?

Anyone got some bright ideas?

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

As sjgadsby has so clearly and patiently explained the Community Council has two roles:

• a representative body to facilitate communications between Nokia (and, I guess, other stakeholders) and "the community"[1]
• a facilitating entity within the community to ensure that people know what other people are doing (e.g. to prevent duplication of work) and help people find resources for big projects like CSSU.[2]

The Community Council is empowered to speak on the community's behalf when Nokia ask something like "who should we sponsor to the next Maemo/MeeGo summit/conference?" It was devised when Nokia were asking many questions on maemo-developers@ and maemo-community@ which no-one felt empowered to answer on behalf of everyone else. The Community Council is therefore a set of people selected from within the community who the community say "these people can speak for us" and largely meant that members like Texrat, javispedro, myself, timsamoff, GeneralAntilles, lardman, gcobb, achipa and the (grossly unfairly) unelected sjgadsby continue to do their normal behaviour and offer their usual opinions but with the collective voice of the community behind us.

However, the Maemo community has recently been facing issues which the background and ongoing activities of the council members was not sufficient. This is where the facilitation role comes into it. MohammadAG wants to spearhead the creation of a Fremantle Community SSU? The council helps with whatever he needs.

So, with the topic being the future of *.maemo.org (and as lma noted, maemo.org is far more than just another vBulletin instance), there are two concerns:

• What do we do about funding, infrastructure, resourcing of the websites & services on maemo.org?
• What are the possible futures of Maemo, and how can we achieve them?

Saying "the Council needs to lead us" is entirely missing the point. Someone needs to come up with concrete, viable proposals which can be discussed. The council can assist with the publication and collaboration of that, as - I'm sure - anyone vested in Maemo will also publicise.

Once there is a popular, actionable plan for either of these two items, the council's power is to say "this is the roadmap" and then assist with the publication and collaboration of that, as - I'm sure - anyone vested in Maemo will also publicise.

The big "but" is, as smoku alluded to, no-one has come forward with a plan, nor even a plan to have a plan. It's unrealistic to expect five volunteers to be super CEOs of an amorphous, unruly and - if this, and so many other, threads are anything to go by - increasingly ungrateful mob.

The sad fact is that there may not be an ultimate end-game beyond "let's move to COBS for autobuilder, consolidate and reduce infrastructure costs as much as possible; have funding drives; introduce adverts and assist the CSSU as much as possible". That's still a lot of work, a lot of planning, and a lot of coordination. Who's volunteering to do it?



[1] The definition of "the community" has always been a little contentious, but my definition is "if you think you're in it, you're in it". Admittedly, this makes external definitions hard which is why we fall back on maemo.org accounts.

[2] Of course, one doesn't need to be on the Community Council to do that, but one doesn't need to be on the Community Council to do anything. You don't need its permission. You don't need its sanction. If you have a good idea, JFDI.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Nice "ungrateful mob" jibe--because I'm sure people LOVE planned obsolescence, abandonment and secrecy.

This is just sad. After reading up to this point.. I'm just left crestfallen and hopeless about Maemo and even MeeGo now.

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

Future of Maemo 5 Fremantle

Pali made a list of the closed packages and provided scripts to backup repositories. based on this, two posters offered hardware they had @ home (SANs) to make a repository.
if there is interest, i'm willing to contact a UNIX User Group and ask what the conditions are for them to mirror a repository.
problem we have completely unsolved is the closed packages.
could the council "direct" ppl to work on those? or facilitate a collaboration with the CSSU team?

i leave the rest of your post rather then replacing it with my usual [...]
can't think of any comment about how enthusiastic you seem to be :(
did anyone ask you to be a superhero?
i wonder in how far your lack of enthusiasm is what makes the mob... "so ungrateful"

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

What... The... Hell... does "obsolesence, abandonment and secrecy" have to do with the Maemo Community Council? I've no idea to what you're even referring anymore.

Yes it is sad. Have you a plan to solve it, or do you disagree with my assessment?

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

I'm not enthusiastic about Maemo or maemo.org!? That's a new one - thanks, I'll stop reading this thread with a smile on my face :-)

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

this is not about Meamo anymore.
this is about saving it after NOKIA decided to move on.
rather then gloomy posts (which abill or myself certainly already provided more then enough, right?) or promises of help & guidance, what's needed from a council would be concrete steps.
you are supposed to coordinate and facilitate?
maybe there's a little bit more needed.

clear and spontaneous communication would be a good start.
you want to hear ppl's ideas, being open to initiatives?
really?

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

I'm not currently on the council, but I tried to explain why the council shouldn't be expected to do the heavy lifting of coming up with the concrete steps to "save" Maemo.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

If I was a councile member I had actually not answered this thread thats for sure its just whine over and over and olvfer again.

People want councile to "listen to the members" but its seems the members doesnt want to listen to the councile.

and about this maemo dead thuingy. last year people was angry cause Nokia did say maemo5 will not be upgarde to meego now we have an open meego projec but now all people here see doesnt want it? want the hell is wrong with you people?

I just wonder is there none of you whiners that actully has ontibuted to Maemo in some way!?

I am not that good myself in contributing but atleast I have tried..

and this dicussion about free devices first of they are not free. next dont you think it important the best devs get an device to start develop new apps? Ohh I forgot, dumb me, if they dont get a device there will no be apps so then people can start complain about lack of apps instead :mad:

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

maybe you should leave to the council the decision and assessment of what they want to or won't do?

or are you telling the council what it should or shouldn't do?

Re: A significant day in community governance?
 

I'm real late to the game today... but as it stands, it's sorta odd that people like Jaffa have to explain themselves over and over and it doesn't seem to make a difference.

So let's go down the line.

The council isn't being silent. They're speaking on the community's behalf. If anything, we need to find ways to be more constructive than ever before.

The assessments, they're just starting to come in. Nobody knows what's next, so passing judgement on incomplete data is rather foolhardy.

I'm not seeing anybody come down and say horrible **** to the community. The fact that it was the Linux Foundation that's created this situation is as much of a surprise as anybody else. So give it time... who knows. Maybe somebody will come up with a solution that avoids the fears of patent trolling as well as other concerns.

Now... what I find real ****ing weird... is that I'm all of the sudden a voice of reason...

Commentary will invariably happen. But if it doesn't resolve or add to the solutions, we might not be commiserating here for long.

And no... I have no clue to any idea that would even help out. So I'm just trying to calm down the negative chatter, see if somebody actually can do something...

For me, it's all about Maemo. It was the little mobile OS that "could". Now? It's becoming the little mobile OS that never got a chance to shine. MeeGo, same thing.

I'll hush up now. Just thought I'd chime in, shine some uncharacteristic positivity, share my lovely smile... toodles for now.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

There are three routes to chose from.. a single enthusiast, a new leader body or extending the mandate the council has. Somehow we need to organize something that now mostly function as in anarchy. There is no clear leader or body of leaders. I am not aware of any organization which can function without any type of leadership. So that need to be sorted out first. When it is done that new body could later organize how everything should be done.

A singular enthusiast is something anybody can be. It just needs to be somebody who is committed enough. The downside is if that enthusiast later loses interest. It would be preferable if the enthusiast also knew how to make a home page, register a domain name and administrate the services. Though the community could help with parts of this. This would be the easiest route for funding as well. It wouldl be up to that enthusiast how to sort it out. Best would be if it was a trusted member of this community. The community would pretty much build up around this person and this persons word would be law.

A new leader body could be chosen for the task. An election could even be held and administrated here at TMO with the help of the council. This election would also need some charts (rules) on how the board/organization should operate and how the board later will be replaced annually. The main obstacle here would be legal issues. This would need more than one enthusiast and preferable from the same country. Funding would rely on those enthusiast and their intentions. Trust could become an issue here. They would need to register as an organization in their country. This is also how the councils mandate could be extended. But this would mean that an re-election should be held for the council as the current members did not sign up for this.

The best and democratic solution in my mind would be a leader board but which would also be the most difficult to accomplice. It would need the most work. It would mean more than one need commitment and has enough trust from the rest of us. It would need someone to take the initial plunch and be extra committed. A very unlikely scenario in other word.

The easiest way would be if someone registered a domain and then let everyone pinch in. Growing it gradually. Managing a repository would not be too demanding. The rest of the services could though. Like the auto builder. It would be a lot of work initially. This could build and eventually become a leader board and body.

Another obstacle is hardware. If we can't find new hardware to exist on this is futile. I think the Cordia project are interesting in this regard. It shows that parts of Maemo is not locked to one device. It might be possible to put Maemo on an Adroid or WebOS device too. But is it worth it? Well, that question is something someone need to decide upon and then go to work. Without that person this discussion is pointless. Someone need to step up and take the lead.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

The way i see it, this community needs a council that is actually capable of listening to it's members and have the knowledge and determination to go forward in the area it's members want them to go NOT where they think they should go.

Nobobdy on the current council either has the determination or the will to move in a positive direction towards Maemo simply because they feel it is a lost cause i am sure.

I have said my piece many times on here to know from the responses i get it is full of gutless people who lack determination and the ability to pull Maemo from a dying situation to a living one.

Maemo will die under these circumstances and as for Maemo.org, it will change name for sure obviously so all in all this has been a totall waste of peoples time and energy especially when bridges have not been crossed.

LF is a waste of time and of no use to Maemo at all in my opinion, so either find someone who has ability or give it all up.

Unless i see something positive i am done with all this now.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

The sources of this project are being released open, but please - it's not an open project...

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

I think first step should be to secure the current resources:

• repositories
• stock firmware
• documentation
• forum
• anything that is significant

This should include all devices in maemo program.

This must be done without antagonising Nokia. Securing the permission to replicate the content is a possible task for the council.

At the same time, the funding and governing of the future project is also a big issue (donations by members, companies, open source organizations...).

The future development pretty much depends on the number of people willing to maintain/develop each obsolete device.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

It is not within the cpabilities of the current council and as for "antagonising Nokia" Nokia have ditched this community and Maemo so the only thing that can be done now is to either rip Maemo and completely re-write making all the closed components open like it has been suggested on here countless many times before and one the council ignore beacuse they do not have the ability to follow this up.

The time has really come to stop beating about the bush using "gentle" words and get to the point IF Maemo is to be saved.

;)

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Abill, all know that. But in order to replicate everything we have to secure the permission from Nokia.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

This is the problem, getting permission from Nokia is just NOT going to happen, for one they are too wrapped up in there own grave and secondly the closed pakages are not down to Nokia.

"ripping" means that and is basically what many people have said on here to write new drivers for the components in the N900.

Ask your self a question.... is the current council capable of doing this? NO, BUT they are capable of starting the ball rolling and that is something they refuse to do.

EDIT REPLICATE is not what needs to happen, writing new drivers IS.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Look at the CSSU for instance that is or should i say WAS a huge project onhere, look at the mess it is in because of dev's leaving and the work not going in the right direction.

This is where the council should have concentrated and where the most important part of the Maemo prgression is.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

CSSU is a mess????

Please, if you are so smart and know so much about development, give some of your precious time to MAG, Pali, CepiPerez, Arcean, Freemangordon and all of those that are "clearly" going in the wrong direction.

This was just enough for me from this guy, thanks to the Ignore option.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Boy, will you be more specific on left devs, mess and wrong direction. Maybe I am missing something, but I was under the impression that last few weeks several devs actually JOINED (arcean, CepiPerez, ... ), new update is expected once last changes are ironed, etc. Please enlighten us mortals.

If you are correct in what you say it is a MUST to share it with general public, ain't ?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

WHEN cssu can take over the os in it's own right and NOT from an sd card then i will say it is getting somewhere, untill then it is just a mess.

We want this to happen so much and now it seems it will not because of little or no dev's left to accomplish this. :(

Share with this community not the "general public".

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

CSSU in a SD card? You really have no idea what you are talking about.