Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Ok so what your saying is the cssu version of the Maemo os for the N900 is downloadable as an image to flash over the emmc ?.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

abill

CSSU is not MeeGo. It is the application of fixes to things like the mail and camera and other applications and packages that are core to maemo. You do not install it onto an SD card, it is an update like the OTA PR1.3.

There is a proverb that I think you should take to heart because you're embarrassing yourself time and again on here:
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Oh then i have missed something here, please explain to me more.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

You have no idea what CSSU is, right? And you are not using it, right? And you are thinking of n900 Meego CE when writing for CSSU, right?

Boy, I see you have a burning desire to help and lead community, but trust me, that is not the way. It is always a good think to have an idea of matter you're trying to discuss.

So, I will recommend you to skip your every third post and to use the time you would spend for writing it to make yourself a favor - READ AND EDUCATE yourself. You can start from here http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU

Enough trollfood from me, sorry for being OT

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

I read of the many problems it has and have never installed it on any of the devices i have so you will just have to excuse my ignorance !.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

You know, you're right. It's a MAEMO problem, not a Maemo Community Council problem. My mistake.

Plan to solve it? I could whip up several plans--who knows what might work, everything would hinge on Nokia and whether the gutless, eunuchs at Nokia's executive level would ever grant any of it (or even at least press their suppliers)--mainly ACTUALLY opening up code and allowing a community distribution, but we know how that's worked out already. Naw--on second thought, I guess I have no realistic plans. Same as you and everyone else. :( So much for Maemo and Maemo devices.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

No, I won't, neither the others (methinks). There is no excuse for hijacking every possible thread where someone (not you) is trying to make something positive and constructive. Because it seems it is easier for you to withdraw ******** out of the air with absolutely no background knowledge and to throw it here, cursing every possible project, initiative or whatever.

Still, just follow my advice.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

When it is in a position to take over the os we currently have i will do but not when it is at this stage as it has many problems as yet.

I will not install cssu in this way.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Completely agree with this and the reason i have asked so many times on here for some movement from the council but we never get anything back but NO this is not possible.

I am not a dev and i will not be pushed into installing anything in extra's because i do not want the pain of re-flashing all the time.

Please remember cssu is NOT for me as i am hardware not software, please try to remember that as i have never held any secrets from not being a software developer !.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

What we are fighting here is the survival of Maemo and although cssu has made a stab at it, in my opinion it has much more work to be accomplished before it can be classed as a working os.

NO disrespect to anyne who has either worked on or is still working on cssu.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Back to the topic.

We all know we can replicate privately some of the maemo content. That is a reasonable precaution for each individual member.

What about replicating the content outside the Nokia's infrastructure?

I would appreciate if we could avoid following situations within this topic:

• "I've told you so, now we are all doomed"
• Announcing dead-end, without exploring the options, or contacting entities that may have power to help.
• Troll and anti-troll remarks (try to think about it as a static noise)
• Instructions on how to add member to ignore list
• Pointless remarks toward Nokia, no matter how we feel, what is done is done.

Complaining about things that don't/won't work is useless. Let's focus on what can be done in:

• short term - securing the resources, infrastructure, founding...
• long term - future development: define what that would be...

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

smoku,

pls, don't be so sarcastic
that thread is the mega phoenix of all threads.
abill & me have (partly in overtime & over boost) been busy trying to lose this thread for so long, can't be bothered to count them anymore :rolleyes:

this being said, this thread is far from lost.
i'd even go a step further... it is in my opinion the 1st thread ever to get somewhere :eek:

namely:
are you, freemangordon and whoever else is working on CSSU:
-a- willing
-b- technically in a state
to provide open source alternatives to the closed components of Maemo?
it's nice to tweak fremantle, but what's the point if it ceases to be possible to download official firmwares?

so, my list of priorities...

• gather all the open sourced code

• create open sourced alternatives to the closed sourced components

• generated a open source firmware

once we got that, it will be down to practical details to see how or where we can set up a primary repository and mirror it, if need be (that is, if there is enough interest justifying the costs involved)

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

My understanding is that situation with binary blobs/closed source components should be cleared first. May I ask the council to contact Nokia on that regard. Maybe they (Nokia) have an option none of us has tought about.

Once we have clear picture on the above it will be much easier to find the correct further direction.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

thank you for this.
looking forward to your feedback (even if it isn't Go! Go! Go!)

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

You do realise that THIS is exactly what we are trying to make happen , why we are all seemingly arguing on here and seemingly we ALL want the same thing to happen?????.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

That will hold the water until we encounter problem with closed-source drivers.
Any suggestions on how to do this?

• Negotiating with Nokia to open the source (probably will not work)
• Legally obtain technical documentation from Nokia/other vendors and implement open source alternatives.
• Reverse engineering (this can be very painful).
• Negotiating with Nokia to provide updated closed source binaries (this is something stskeeps got tasked to do for N900)

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Are you aware that stskeeps was given all the closed binaries for the N900 from Nokia ?.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

abill,

this isn't only about a todo list.
this is a community of ppl doing whatever they do for free.
you may fire an employee if he doesn't do what he is asked to do a number of times, but not in an open source community.
nobody ever said that open source was the easiest way to develop from an organisational point of view.
talking of LF...
but even so, maybe the way NOKIA has set up Maemo.org is the best way to go. or was, as long as they were actively supporting it with regular releases of "closed source stuff" that is.

living with the uncertainty of how long this is going to continue to be possible respectively moving to a situation where Maemo wouldn't depend on those "regular release" is stressful and maybe the real challenge @ hand...

EDIT: as to the 0 & 1s... binary is only of limited use because

• release they are build/compiled for

• except reverse engineer the logic, hardly anything can be done with them from a dev point of view

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Are you aware that you are wasting precious oxygen that can be used more productively elsewhere, like in putting rain forests on fire?

Are you aware that Stskeeps is under NDA, like he told YOU many times before?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

@abill - May I ask you to write and maintain wiki page which sums up current situation and further steps and tracks the progress i.e. something like:

1. Binaries - waiting someone from the council to contact nokia
2. CSSU - waitng for stable release
.
.
.

Now the information is spread all over this and other threads, making things much harder. And also there could be deadlines there.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Maybe stskeeps could throw some light on the possible release of the code that the cssu very need, maybe there has been some changes and could be possible for this to happen?.

I am not exactly the best person to ask him as me and him did have our dissagreements about this.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Why do you think it's only 'stskeeps'?. According to http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/HW_Adaptation_team :

From where I sit it just seems that Nokia is actively investing in making it possible to have a sustainable MeeGo port and deliver working, both open and closed source redistributable bits for N900 so people can work on a open system without loosing hardware functionality.

What's bad about that?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Very good idea.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Actually, especialy lately, you're seeing almost nobody working for NASA anymore. I see parallels here.

I also see this... which might be relevant to his point. And MAN does it make a sad laugh to read:
http://wiki.maemo.org/Why_the_closed...sed_components

Last I checked, bugtracker was already being used to make a bunch of requests to open things up and the Maemo wiki itself already lists a bunch of the closed components as well as reasons for open-sourcing and procedures for these requests:
http://wiki.maemo.org/Open_developme...hange_requests

Just some light reading--maybe it'll help with ideas, too. Mind you, I'm sure we've already gone through this before and they were probably denied--irony, considering the reasons for open-sourcing they gave us.

Just the same, I like your idea. Can we have a page for that on Maemo.org's wiki? It would seem like the right central place for it.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Here is the differences between MeeGo and Maemo.

For whatever reasons the code was given freely for the MeeGo project but not for the Maemo progression by this organisation.

Now we got to find out a way for it's release to this community or Maemo dies it is as simple as that.

Maemo.... rememeber is NOT MeeGo.

Get http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/HW_Adaptation_team channelled through to this community and you have success.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Case in point, for Maemo...

https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9314

Relicensing reasons:

1. Fixing a bug: Positive, Might help fixing BME bugs
(https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6206)
2. Nurturing application development: none that I can see, except for
hardware hacks.
3. Spread of Maemo driven technologies to other platforms: Negative
4. Community maintenance: Positive, may help community maintence
5. Better architecture: Positive, userland process that covers a very
important component in the hardware interface

One or more projects: Mer, MeeGo, Gentoo, maybe even Maemo itself.

OK, so, conclusion:

To say it in a gentle way, BME is a can of worms. I will recommend against
reverse engineering it as this is not your grandfather's simple charging
algorithms and there is severe risk of blowing up things. There's a bunch of
patents and other things involved as well. While Nokia and Maemo may be happy
allow you to shoot yourself in the foot metaphorically, it may not be happy to
help injuring yourself physically :)

However, let us look at this in a practical way. The biggest issue currently
for all non-Maemo systems is redistributability of a very core component, the
charging and checks which without most OS'es actually would risk driving
battery below sane limits. I don't think this should be open source but I do
think we should be able to integrate it into our systems in a sane manner.

If there's bugs in BME, report them and let's see what we can do about them.
It's a critical enough component that we might be able to get bug fixing
support for the older devices too.

I'm proposing the following:

Priority MEDIUM since it's not a blocker, but I propose placing BME under a
license that allows binary redistribution and having that as goal. It's up for
discussion though if there's better ideas, keeping all the above in mind.

Just as an example... it was decided: we were protected from ourselves by Nokia from Nokia's own code (not a component manufacturer's). Now that the N900 has hit its end-of-life and Nokia is clearly no longer supporting or even responsible for anything anymore... we were left with the status of being denied and STILL dependent on the hope that bug reports will yield fixes and improvement from Nokia. Incredible. You can't even blame Texas Instruments or anyone else for this. Is there any way the Council can communicate to Nokia and cite these examples from the Wiki that I listed in my previous posts as the reasons why we would like them to finally, once and for all, just let Maemo go and open it up, for crying out loud?

The other work is important too (hosting repositories, etc.) but this one's a fight that has spanned YEARS and I'm not sure that anything else will matter without opening up as much of Maemo as possible (understanding that there probably will still be some that CAN'T be opened that doesn't fall into Nokia's permission to open).

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Problem is we HAVE been through this many times on this community and it has got nobody and everybody no where because it goes around in circles.

I had a full blown argument with stskeeps over all this and the very reason i think a route other than everything talked about to date is found.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

As i see it, what freemangordon asked abill_uk to help out with is not yet covered anywhere.

So abill_uk, what do you say?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

I will say NOTHING to you untill you delete all your stupid posts .... understand ?????.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

You don't have to say anything to me, freemangordon, a respected developer asked you for help, not me.

Since you are on a crusade to save Maemo and this community i thought you'd more then willing to help the man out.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

What many people do not understand especially about me is, i do not mess about and go in where it matters most no matter what the feelings are.

I am and have been a troubleshooter many years and i just see all this useless talk for what it is.... useless.....

I am reffering to the trolling and the nay sayers and the name calling when we should be going at it where it will dent the most !.

.And the going round in circles all the time !!!.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Talk about irony.

I guess actual work is a BIT harder then drooling on your keyboard.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

It was me who asked the question, anyway, will you do it?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

What can one person do without the direction and the ammunition do?.

This is and should always be a group decision.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

As far as I can tell from their meetings and mailing list posts, this is what the MeeGo N900 team is providing for hardware adaptation. It has also been actively open sourcing what it can get (telephony stack, etc).

From a Radical Realistic Open Source point of view, why bother at all with a platform (Maemo) that is so infested with closed source?

It's going to go downhill like this like it always does in these kind of projects with devices that involve closed platforms:

* Clear trend of end-users moving on to other devices (promiscious and non-brand)
* Big legal challenges to legally redistribute parts of the firmware/full images
* Less and less work force to do anything useful

Do we really need a graph to show the effort/benefit of instead, focusing the community efforts on something like MeeGo, Debian, Ubuntu or god forbid, SHR?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

To make a wiki page? Don't think so. And we will have a point to start from. And eventualy more people will get inspired and will help you.

It i sup to you of course, we are all volunteers here

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

Many of us do not want Maemo to die that is the whole point.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011
 

With my background on this community? no chance mate because i am already hated for some of my words on here ;).

Will have to be someone else like danramos... go ask him ;)
or momcilo or misterc.

For sure it has to be someone with guts and determination to see it through that will already have respect from this community.

After all the arguments i have had i am the wrong person sorry.