maemo.org - Talk - What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

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- - What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development? (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=76635)

Re: What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneel (Post 1093703)

Read this thread.

*This* thread :) :http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=4575

Re: What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

Quote:

Originally Posted by baptx (Post 1093176)

We know Harmattan is a MeeGo by Nokia, so maybe less open and hackable but this won't change anything for me, I'll use the N9 because there's no better device actually. What about the N900 platform security, how does it works?

N900 has no platform security implemented.

Re: What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

Quote:

Originally Posted by debernardis (Post 1093709)

*This* thread :) :http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=4575

Very interesting topic. It looks like the rebellion by some very important community contributors.

I think we should avoid direct involvement in their topic, but nothing prevents us from discussing it here.

Here are some things that caught my attention:

There are some new terms like platform developers, which seems to exclude community developers. I think platform developers include nokia employees and subcontractors(speculation, but it smells that way) .

I am really scared of the platform developer reasoning. It looks like they are obsessed with limiting what developers and users can do with their devices. They behave like they actually own the device. If you buy N9 you are not an owner with full rights - instead you are allowed to do what nokia thinks is ok for you.

That sounds like converting the community developers to the level of Symbian/Android/iOS developer. Basically enclosed in a box and subdued.

Quote:

Originally Posted by djszapi@meego

You can send your device back, if you do not enjoy the hardware or/and software. There is no obligation for you to ship an application, if you do not have time and sake to do it anymore. I know many people out there waiting for this device. At least when I showed them, they were happy and I mentioned the general complains.

Do not take it offense, please, but it might be that, it is that platform you do not enjoy, and would be better to give to those people who would die for one with its current state.

:mad: I think this should have been expected once it became clear developers will not own a device.

Quote:

Originally Posted by javispedro@meego

Either way. I am willing to give you the benefit of doubt again.
You are asserting that lizardo's trick, aka, patching the kernel so that it lies to userspace applications about the state of Aegis, _is_ the sanctioned way to disable Aegis that I've been looking for.
Well, it hardly seems like one official method though. But I will patiently wait for the kernel sources to materialize and hope that if we start using that Nokia will not eventually "fix it" in the next firmware release.

I wonder if they are going to get kernel sources?

My guess is that the platform architect (and btw: who may that be?) is intentionally squeezing security credentials for following reasons:

introduce gradual changes to tighten the "security" without braking everything
at the same time too much of a "security" at once might make community developers angry.
optionally, make the community developers challenge the security framework, so any vulnerability can be detected.

The question is what is the final step (5/5)?

I think the problems community got from closed binaries, is children's play compared to what may happen to N9(50).

We can not blame Elop for this, since it started long before him.

EDIT: rephrased some of my faulty english

Re: What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

I think the "Trusted Computing" video is relevant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnXU7z2_6Jg

For me (aside from problematic hacking) it's really embarrassing because I've touted how my os is so much better than my friends' locked down piece of crap that. Now it looks like my os is also a locked down piece of crap.

Re: What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

Quote:

Originally Posted by momcilo (Post 1093728)

<SNIP>

Again your overall impression of developments is quite diff. to mine.
Your summary of that thread, is quite diff. to the impression I got :confused:
Contrary to what momcilo suggests...
I'd recommend folks who've read this thread, also read that thread.

Re: What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jalyst (Post 1093880)

It is always better to read the original thread and make own conclusions.

I've shared my observations (and possible speculations) in a hope that others will discuss it as well.

BTW: Can you be more specific on <SNIP>?

Re: What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

Quote:

Originally Posted by momcilo (Post 1093886)

No problem with that whatsoever... :)
T'was just suggesting that everyone read for themselves, & interpret as they will.
It's never a good idea to digest just one person's take on things.
"<SNIP>" just means removing everything in the quote.

Re: What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

looking interesting on the meego forum: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=4575&page=8

Open mode achieved

Re: What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mooglez (Post 1107863)

looking interesting on the meego forum: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=4575&page=8

Open mode achieved

We still have to see how it goes in end-consumer devices, but this looks promising.

Re: What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

Quote:

Originally Posted by momcilo (Post 1107878)

We still have to see how it goes in end-consumer devices, but this looks promising.

I think that the warranty voided warning is there exactly for consumer devices -- doesn't seem likely they'd put that for warranty-less N950s ;)

Re: What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

Quote:

Originally Posted by javispedro (Post 1107879)

I think that the warranty voided warning is there exactly for consumer devices -- doesn't seem likely they'd put that for warranty-less N950s ;)

If I understood correctly, flashing/booting kernel that is not signed by nokia triggers the open mode even within harmattan?

Re: What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

Quote:

Originally Posted by momcilo (Post 1107884)

If I understood correctly, flashing/booting kernel that is not signed by nokia triggers the open mode even within harmattan?

Exactly. That's the "news" part, as it was not allowed by beta1. (In fact, I couldn't boot any unsigned kernel at all).

The fact that Aegis enters the "official" open mode means that many apps automatically stop checking for privileges, like D-Bus, etc. and there's no need to make individual patches for each of them.

Re: What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

Do you think there is a "write once" hardware flag to implement this warranty void?

Re: What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

Quote:

Originally Posted by buchanmilne (Post 1088763)

If it is a subsidised phone, with the subsidy given on the basis of additional revenue that the operator will derive from your (restricted) use of the device (e.g. billable communication, licensed media etc.), then it is not your device.

I'm not sure how this works anywhere other than in the USA, but in my experience in the USA if you buy a subsidized phone you sign up for a contract. If you then use your phone on a different network, you STILL have to pay the contract, so there's no rational justification other than needless control to lock your phone - if you get another contract you're still paying your 40-60$ per month for the contract that subsidized your phone costs, so no, at no point does your phone provider lose money or not recover their costs if you use your phone unlocked.

Just wanted to point out the folly in saying you don't own the phone - technically you don't /own/ a house when you take out a mortgage on it until the mortgage is paid off either, or a car until you're done paying the car's cost off, but no one says the loan issuer can tell you what you can do inside/to your house or where you can drive your car.

Re: What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

Quote:

Originally Posted by javispedro (Post 1107887)

Exactly. That's the "news" part, as it was not allowed by beta1. (In fact, I couldn't boot any unsigned kernel at all).

That was a bug back then, FWIW

Re: What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mentalist Traceur (Post 1107916)

Just wanted to point out the folly in saying you don't own the phone -

Corporations will need that (they have good reasons, like enforcing exchange provision).

Other users should have the full control at least unlockable.

Re: What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

Quote:

Originally Posted by erendorn (Post 1107892)

Do you think there is a "write once" hardware flag to implement this warranty void?

i think this is an important question. Can they tell if someone was using an unsigned kernal and reflashed back to stock build?
is the warranty only void if it's bricked with an unsigned kernal etc. hopefully there will be more light shed about this soon.

Re: What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD69 (Post 1137049)

There is now an open mode kernel for Harmattan

So... This is good news? Are we gonna get what we want :)

More comments needed here...

Re: What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

This sounds great indeed! Who do we have to thank for this "open mode" kernel?

Also, am I right in assuming that once Aegis is neutralized the N9 would be able to build on its older brother's (N900) achievements and allow easyDebian and other distros to run chrooted - probably even Fremantle apps? Would chrooted environments have full access to the hardware (e.g. 3D acceleration etc.) as well?

This is one of the main reasons I haven't gotten an N9 yet, I'd have no problem with paying a premium for a fully fledged Linux device, but those reports about aegis sounded too much like impenetrable walled garden.

(I must admit I have been eyeing that Android device that would allow a chrooted Linux environment on a 1280x720 screen; though GUI apps only via localhost VNC due to lack of proper X server.)

Re: What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

Quote:

Originally Posted by catbus (Post 1137657)

So... This is good news? Are we gonna get what we want :)

More comments needed here...

Agreed. There needs to be a summary for the layman...
As-to-whether we're in a greatly improved position compared to three+ month back.
And if we are, when (roughly) we can expect tangible advantages* stemming from that.
Preferably from one of the folk intimately involved w/all the AEGIS open-mode work.

*and downsides.

Quote:

Originally Posted by erendorn (Post 1107892)

Do you think there is a "write once" hardware flag to implement this warranty void?

And we need this cleared-up with 100% certainty already!
Yes we can infer based on what was the case for the N900.
But we really need verification from a N9....

Re: What is aegis [MSSF] and how does it affect Free Software development?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingpin (Post 1156917)

So whats next ?

This thread's dead/outdated, read this one from the beginning:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=81579
Not too many pages there yet anyway....