Re: Tizen?
 

fool me once Nokia, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again!
MeeGo, thou never knew thee. R.I.P. Maemo R.I.P.

Re: Tizen?
 

on topic : tizen sounds like tarzan which has evolved from somewhere nowhere just to pull the plug on meego and guess what meego team members are trying to convince people to make a transition to tizen ,i dont know how one can be this ruthless ,one should be ashamed on that.
off topic : Qt app developers are not gonna like this .Being a N900 fan,i am quite disappointed with the way things are going & sad about those devs who have given about 2 precious years of their lives to meego.Finally Elop wins and meego dies .I would rather show a sympathy to those who have been working on for meego ,come back and lets have the joy of n900 and lets just stick to that .There is no fking future ,maemo dead ,meego dead and soon tizen will be gone too ,only thing which will be left is gonna be WINDOWS phone ,meego code is not goona be distributed .Between on this fall,incomplete meego CE 1.3 is gonna be the last release for N900, .So enjoy !! i think one can put his full faith in N900 without any doubt ,atleast upto 2012.

Re: Tizen?
 

So... Is MeeGo still under development? Has it "forked the shark"? I'm assuming since it was "all GPL and open" that someone has a repository clone setup, and a development area still? Or has everyone fled it like a sinking ship?

I have to ask because I haven't been following it. In this case, there's not really a clear successor (besides Tizen I guess) that they'll all just jump to because it's the new shiny. I suspect this shift is too quick and too brutal for even the most blinkered members. So where is everyone headed next? Or are they staying? (Or maybe coming back here?)

Re: Tizen?
 

Why bother with FOSS for mobile? Isn't it obvious by now that it's only a game played by the big guys? MeeGo changes name to Tizen (for all practical purposes) and suddenly everything changes? I don't think so.

All you need to know is that Bada rox, and soon it will rock a hell of a lot more - for some :rolleyes:

Re: Tizen?
 

Will you sing that same tone when Bada goes open source?

Re: Tizen?
 

I understand your reluctance, given how badly MeeGo has been an anticlimax after the relative success of Maemo. Before, with Nokia and Intel, MeeGo were really two different OS's for two different hardware platforms. They never did manage to merge Maemo and Moblin, as far as I judge it.

However, consider that Samsung have been looking for an Android backup plan, and they have really been focusing on having the same environment across device sizes.

So I think they're going to focus on "mobile device platform" and not "tablet platform". And Samsung aren't as afraid to throw their weight around and make a change as Nokia obviously have been.

Re: Tizen?
 

Well, actually a more accurate quote says "The initial release of Tizen is targeted for Q1 2012, enabling first devices to come to market in mid-2012" - so you are at least partially right.

It means that they from day 0 aren't locking down the core like with Dalvik. That is reason for optimism in my book. All in all this is another bout of bad news for the Qt advocates at Nokia, but at least it's not completely abandoned yet.

1) HTML5 apps should be pretty portable. Any decent browser would want to drive them. Infact, that should eliminate the reason to buy an expensive smartphone.

2)
Microsoft released Windows Embedded CE in 1996. It got revamped into Windows Mobile in 2003, and then they swapped it for Windows Phone 7 in 2010. While buying and failing the Kin.

Samsung also released it's first Samsung Bada phone in 2010.

In one year, Samsung has managed to pass the market share of Windows on cell phones. I don't think you should underestimate the power of Samsung. Btw, didn't Apple and Google also manage to pass Microsoft@phones in about that long?

In all this, it's kind of amusing that Nokia has managed to stake all it's future on the one company that has proven that more than anyone, they're okay with failing the cell phone market. Oh, and even Steve Ballmer said in his interview recently - paraphrased - that Windows Phone was Nokia's problem, not his. At least Intel know they will die an IBM death if they don't break through on hand held computing soon.

With the number of cell phone OSs that has been closed down recently, and the recent Android uncertainty, there is no wonder that Samsung want a solid alternative. They're the new Nokia, and will not want to be 100% dependent on someone else/uncommitted to build the OS. Only idiots want that.

Re: Tizen?
 

Samsung seems to be getting the "Nokia disease". Bada 2.0 should be in out in June, but it's still nowhere to be seen except for beta. And now this Tizen. IMO this shows that Samsung is not capable of developing software fast enough to keep up with the market. Samsung is not even developing the core OS for Bada. Tizen is obviously only a playground for Samsung trainees and students. Something good is bound to come out of it, but it may not be what we think it will be, and it will mostly be good for Samsung only.

Bada with Tizen/MeeGo core - yes probably. Bada itself going open source - I don't think so.

Re: Tizen?
 

But that's a problem, isn't it? What's the point of developing yet another platform which will support HTML5, especially if it *only* supports HTML5? If HTML5 apps eventually are found to be just as good as native apps (which I doubt will be the case), then Android/iOS/ZunePhone will support them, and there's no need for Tizen. They aren't even aspiring to create anything that would differentiate them from the existing, increasingly entrenched, market leaders.

Tizen reminds me of something Lewis Black said: "This is the perfect gift for people who disappoint themselves, even in their dreams."

Re: Tizen?
 

Reading Tizen's homepage native development is available too. Limo /SLP had html5 WAC too, but also promised native. So hopefully no problems

Re: Tizen?
 

Yeah SLP is running X11 and even officially supports GTK (or at least did).
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1tJI87sRhZ...ection_064.png

Hopefully this will be a wake up call for Nokia and they will get on board with Tizen too. Remember that Tizen is owned by LF and is said to be 100% open source so it's nothing stopping anyone to use it if they want to.

Re: Tizen?
 

Me too, but only if it supports transactions and has embedded GPG-signatures in the software packages. And if LinuxFoundation and LSB officially replace rpm with html :P

Fragmentation is killing Linux. Debian and Ubuntu are not innocent of that either.

Re: Tizen?
 

Linux-with-Qt-required is BETTER than Linux-with-any-and-EVERY-toolkit-going, for mobile purposes.

This is because as well as good native performance, it can provide a more consistent user experience across different applications and devices (when developed a certain way), which is extremely important in the mobile space in order to achieve better usability (i.e. ISO-9241 effectiveness, efficiency, satisfaction, and ease of learning etc). This is the kind of thing that helps a 'platform' to gain traction with the actual public, which in turn brings more developers in, etc.

Of course as you are probably aware it also provides a cross platform IDE, or even the option to develop within Visual Studio if desired.

It also means that optimisations can be concentrated on one area/toolkit rather than across multiple different toolkits.


This could just be a difference in user requirements, some wanting a full Linux desktop distribution on a small screen/device, others wanting apps to have mobile-specific interfaces and consistent UX with good mobile performance.


This may not be of interest to you as the advice comes from Steve Jobs, but there is a short piece of relevant advice in the video here.

Thanks,
:)

Re: Tizen?
 

Absolutely. And not only Android/iOS/ZunePhune, but S40, Bada and anything else that can run Opera. A web browser with widgets doesn't make a smartphone.

Well, that's where I am more optimistic. I care about HTML5 for web development, but on a phone it has no more value to me than javascript. However, what is it that cripples Android? It's the fact that you can't get past Dalvik. IF you can get past HTML5 onto this phone, in a way that allows for direct porting of applications... Maybe to such an extent that you don't need EasyDebian... If you can get a core of developers that port real Linux software... Then the OS does differentiate them from the existing, increasingly locked-in market leaders. As Maemo was differentiated, even as Maemo 6 is.

Not saying that the whole great big population will care. But for ME as a consumer, that would be much better than control freak iOS, Dalvik crippled Android, or these things that Microsoft designed solely to copy Apple's 30% on every app strategy.

Closed parts aren't really that big a deal for me. As long as it doesn't hinder software development/usage. I would have loved a Windows 8 phone if it was a true desktop-class Windows 8. But I realize now that Microsoft's Metro is nothing but an appstore lock-in. Crew that! We don't need another Apple, only with 3 years delay.

Re: Tizen?
 

Steve Jobs is the asshat who doesn't understand how a pencil is better than fingerpainting for many tasks. There is one thing and only one thing that Steve Jobs is good at. Making PR enhanced Truths. He is on the completely other side of the scale when it comes to ANYTHING that interests this audience.



By your argument, Windows would be better if people only developed in Visual Basic. There is more to GUI, UI and consistency than to limit the available toolkits. Even Visual Studio has a full width of different languages, tools and GUI elements that allows for quite different layouts, if the developers choose to not follow standards.

Would WinAmp be better if it looked like the average VB application? (Arguably, MS MediaPlayer would.)

Re: Tizen?
 

Of course. Always in his near-perfect falsetto.

Re: Tizen?
 

You don't understand. After 200 years of iterations, name changes, unfinished alphas and dropped projects our beloved maemo->meego->titzen will finally be released as LCARS and will be powering starships with FTL drives. Hurray! Looking forward to it.

Re: Tizen?
 

Zitzen is the german world for animal tits. So when I spell Tizen or Titzen, it sound like a mixture between animal tits and the english word "tits". How weird is that?

Re: Tizen?
 

Honestly, let me tell you something: I don't care one whit what's 'better for mobile purposes'. I care for what's better for me.

And Linux-with-Qt-required is not at all something I want or care for.

To hell with 'consistent user experience'. The apps I use don't provide a consistent user experience -- and that's exactly why they're good apps and why I use them.

A 'consistent user experience' is a bollocks buzzword used by computer-illiterate marketing robots, not something for real people with real needs.

Re: Tizen?
 

Some people work with wrench, crowbars and hacksaws.

Some people work with pen, paper and books.

Neither is 'better' than the other.

Computer is the infinitely pliable and adaptable tool of our time. It may become one thing to you and a completely different tool for some other Joes out there.

The smarter person is the one who can understand the many different subjects and context that exists in this world, and not merely and exclusively pushes his own world view toward the others.

The smarter person is the one who realize that we do need each other to each accomplish our goals. In this case, the more people desire and depend on our platform, then the more chance we get for more people to support it so it exists longer and become more pervasive.

Re: Tizen?
 

Not really, because VB is a langauge rather than a graphical toolkit. You can use the Qt toolkit from other languages (perl, python etc).

As mentioned, I think the mobile space has a need for the limitations, whereas the desktop environment can get away with more variation.

Of course, people could spend time trying to make one toolkit behave like another graphical toolkit,.. sounds like a fun passtime. Or they could just use what has been created for that purpose.


Perhaps better support for the other languages (mentioned above) in the supported Qt development tools would allow more flexibility.


Well one of the Winamp features is that it is 'skinnable' to take it away from the Windows look and feel, but notice that the preferences and right click dialog boxes are all standard Windows interface elements?

I remember using an app on Maemo that still had tiny unclickable nested menus, which was quite unusable. I don't think I bothered re-installing that for some reason.



To be honest, many developers and other technical people would think the same way. That's because HCI is really a field of cognitive science, rather than computer science. Because of that, many of those people's only encounters with such a subject would be from a marketing-speak perspective.


Good point.

Thanks,
:)

Re: Tizen?
 

unfortunately Qt is nokias thing....

Re: Tizen?
 

I've seen some people point out that it is fragmentation and inconsistency.


Anyway, I noticed this interesting info on meegoexperts:


I also noticed in the Scott Apeland talk video, this slide (see attachment).

Where exactly do they think 'strong developer community' comes from? Does it have anything to do with the tools perhaps?

Re: Tizen?
 

what have you been drinking? one can see the hints also with N9: add web page as a icon to the menu.

after that you'll have to fire up the xterm and cat .desktop -files to see if "an app" is a browser or executable.

really old news:
http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/01/google-html5-quake/

"it's just a browser!"


e: things might just got a bit more complicated:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj

there should be more information about this within 2 hours I think..

Re: Tizen?
 

Not anymore, and it wasn't before. Qt will live a good life all by itself, as it has done a decade before Nokia came. Forget about Tizen, it's just a playground.

Re: Tizen?
 

then you can tell me which companies use Qt as primary development language besides nokia?

Re: Tizen?
 

Its all happening again
why should it be happening again
i've used my n900 for years and it was always meego/maemo6 which would be great
but this is too much
goodbye

Re: Tizen?
 

Qt is framework and lots of companies use C++ and Qt. Like Google and Adobe. It might not be their primary framework but for an example those two don't even have a primary framework.

Re: Tizen?
 

due to all this... i think i had made a good descision to move to android... happy using gingerbread and looking forward for more "official" upgrades.

Re: Tizen?
 

Exactly. Qt is the preferred framework for millions of companies making all kinds of software, in particular in the industrial sector. Nokia has brought mobile into Qt in a more consistent way and made (boosted the making of) a phenomenal IDE, but that is NOT why Qt is the preferred framework. It is preferred because of signals and slots, plain and simple.

Re: Tizen?
 

On another note, here is something interesting http://www.osnews.com/story/25189/Gtk_3_2_Released

GTK+ 3.2 (experimental) supports applications within an html5 browser, and apparently Qt is working on it as well.

So is this how they'll run Qt applications? Interesting, though I don't think it'd have very good performance.

Also oddly this makes me think more about Gnome 3. The Shell itself is themable through css, so everything is moving to html-style configurations.

By the way for those who love Maemo, you should really run Gnome 3.x. It's brilliant and they do say in the release notes that it was inspired a lot by Maemo on the N900. It's especially awesome on tablets (I am waiting for Arch to upgrade to 3.2, they added tablet rotation to it, apparently!)

I don't know if I have any other comments on Tizen, except that they should have called it Titzen for the sex appeal :D

slaapliedje

P.S. What would the wallpapers look like?

Re: Tizen?
 

I am a web developer, you have no need to tell me what HTML5 widgets are or aren't. If much less complex than quake, I've written an animated game in HTML too. Back when Netscape ruled. That doesn't make javascript a good platform for running real time applications on top of. One thing Widgets aren't, is resource effective, precompiled complex software that has been developed over many years.

Any platform can support Opera, and Opera has been and will probably continue to be one of the biggest contributors to standardizing HTML5. Out-of-the-browser Widgets has been one of the things Opera has been doing for many years. So

YES

an HTML5 based environment can be replaced with just a good browser. Some might care for it. I don't. No more than I care for the web version of Photoshop.

Re: Tizen?
 

I hope its a bigger failure than its Parent OS's
LiMo and MeeGo went nowhere after a combined 6 years of trying

Re: Tizen?
 

Fragmentation and inconsistency. Who did ever care about fragmentation and inconsistency in i.e. the Windows platform, where the "problem" is tens and tens of times as big?

Fragmentation and inconsistency is 2009 Apple talk for "variation in our competition is bad, look, we only need to worry about one single product".

Re: Tizen?
 

whoa... first we were talking about "apps" and then comes... photoshop...


By the time Tizen have theoretical chance of coming to shops, the world as we know it probably has changed. if nothing happends, you can still cover 99,9% appstore items with HTML5 easily...

Re: Tizen?
 

Getting rediculous if you ask me.

Are any of these "Linux distros" compatible with each other? Will we be able to run Meltemi apps on Tizen?

Just seems to be another Betamax v VHS, Blu-Ray v HD-DVD scrap but with more players in the field.

To beat iPhone and Android they should be working towards a common ground of cross-platform compatibility. This, I believe, is where Nokia have got one thing right with QT, (if it's all they've got right so far).

Re: Tizen?
 

Yes. Photoshop.com, a web based application. Or, I guess the correct name is Photoshop Express. Maybe one of the bigger commercial attempts at making a web application act as desktop application.

While Adobe and Microsoft might make web versions of their software, nearly 100% off all existing desktop software will NOT be officially rewritten in HTML5. Some will get good HTML5 clones. More will get half completed amateur clones. With an ad banner.

Re: Tizen?
 

Just to specify, in this context Visual Basic meant not only the language but more relevantly the "integrated development environment (IDE) from Microsoft for its COM programming model", where "A programmer can put together an application using the components provided with Visual Basic itself" in addition to mixing in "the Windows API, but doing so requires external function declarations".

Wiki quotes, since other people explain better than myself what I mean.

Re: Tizen?
 

Hmm.. Gnome on a tablet? Which tablet are you using?

Re: Tizen?
 

Linux Foundation and Linux distributions should take this fragmentation thing much more seriously already. Yes, it is a free world and free OS, but in this way Linux will be fragmented to death.
For example, Debian and Ubuntu, move to use LSB compliant rpm already and stop being stubborn.