Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Does it need to be?

I bet none of the programs I use everyday on my ubuntu desktop is optimized for many cores (apart maybe from gimp) but I can really see a difference between the 6 core Phenom 3.3Ghz over my old P4 2.8 and even over my core 2 duo 2.8 laptop.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

So Harmattan is optimized for multiple core and they didn't use it but still charged as much as other multiple core phones?

It's optimized for OMAP3. That I knew. Are you saying it's optimized for multiple-core? Not at the kernel level. I mean fully through. So if it were (legally) port it to the SGS Exynos dual-core platform (I know, impossible, but ****... you people are saying it's multiple-core optimized. Want me to play your game, play mine...) and Harmattan will scream, right?

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

What do you mean with optimized for "multiple cores"?
How software is optimized depends on the developer

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Ok. Here's the deal.

Nokia N9. I have one, love it. This conversation is dragging on to the point where I want to abandon it. So let's just clarify something since it's gotten way out of hand and has encroached the point of it being a situation where one of us is going to lose our cool.

1. The OMAP3 CPU in the N9 is not multiple core.
2. Linux is multiple-core ready.
3. Harmattan does indeed have threads.
4. Nokia N9 does not have a multiple-core CPU (see #1)
5. Nokia has not paired Harmattan with a multiple-core chipset to our knowledge - could have happened behind closed doors (speculation)
6. Since we have not seen #5, it's all speculation (fact)
7. The above all just means one thing, until we see it, we're speculating... it needs to stop.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

not sure what you are referring to
(that's the kind of "details" that make a discussion on a forum so... painstaking) :rolleyes:
i hope it is later, but in case it is former, i may be interested ;)

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

gerbick,
No one cares... If you like your N9 great, if you don't, great. Please stop arguing a mute point and wasting bandwidth on our normally productive and helpful forum. Asking questions that clearly no one outside of Nokia has answers to doesn't help.

Edit: just saw your post, yes please abandon this circular argument.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Since this thread is far from topic...
Found ashens on pure luck, was funny so I thought I'd share. iPhone 5G review was even funnier with extendable aerial antenna. One other review (for pandora-based gamepad) was quite pro-pandora in terms of connectivity/battery/reliability... so will check it out. iPhone-owning reviewer definitely, but seems reasonable and funny at times

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

tsk tsk tsk
if you don't care, why are you pursuing the argument?
let the man have his opinion... AND RESPECT THAT

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Not sure why you or I should lose our cool over a normal discussion. Perhaps I don't understand what you are trying to say and you are becoming frustrated.

I don't get what you are trying to imply with the cost but I thought the use of OMAP3 was to save money on Hardware/SoC integration yet it still cost the same. That's not an OS issue more hardware design and drivers. Yeah Harmattan if porting was possible will perform better on a OMAP 4 dual core, especially since it also has true multitasking. Meego has been ported to OMAP 4 boards already since 2010 (PandaBoard) so I'm not sure why Harmattan will not benefit, it's the kernel and drivers which make the difference because apps have low level access anyway don't they?

Anyway, if I'm not getting your point then I apologize in advance and perhaps it's best to abandon it in that case.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

I'm not frustrated - I think others in the thread are. Feel free to hit me via PM to avoid derailing this discussion as you can easily see others have spoken.

Take care. No need to apologize my friend.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

No it is not hindsight, maybe for you. A lot of people said at launch of iPhone that it would be big and no I am not going to look that up for you.

Your lottery has nothing to do with it.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

The lumia 800 sells quite good, more worrying is that the 900 doesn't seem to be the super wp7 device everyone has been waiting for. I really expected nokia and microsoft to deliver some exceptional device in 1Q 2012. Now wp apollo comes towards the end of 2012!

No doubt microsoft can easily live with another year of bad wp7 sales (they're making a lot with android). For Nokia though this could be bad. They're burning money like crazy.

I feel nokia could have moved faster with meego, its linux after all!
I heard with apollo wp is gonna get the windows 8 core.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

there ARE moving (faster) with Maemo Harmattan.
& despite Flop's denial, it is selling all it can.
it is merely a matter of getting rid of that failure of a manager.
which doesn't mean they have to stop selling Lumias if that can bring in some m$$$$$$

here is a link to a guesstimate for Lumia devices according to Facebook
it comes out @ 1.3 million (last week) which would be in line with the "over 1 million" scoop trumpeted by Flop / NOKIA
N9 seems to have sold in slightly higher numbers (1.4 million)
former with all the marketing might of m$ + NOKIA, later with hardly any...

now is a good time for The Wizard of Huz,, ossipena & Co to prove their statistical wizardry (no pun intended...) for the coming quarter(s) / year

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

While burning money they are also making a lot of its customers angry. Many will turn away from Nokia and never look back

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20120204PD208.html

"With the exception of Nokia, other major handset vendors will probably not commit resources to develop WP8-based smartphones, indicated the sources, adding that PC vendors such as Acer, Hewlett-Packard (HP) and Dell may optimize the new platform to make a comeback in the smartphone segment."

Good job, Nokia. It's time to go back to the future!

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Nokia really fire Elop as soon as possible. I wonder what board of directors are doing ? Sleeping ? Laughing at the loss of Nokia ? Crying that they cant do anything ?

http://www.gsmarena.com/is_the_nokia...-news-3775.php

its hurting now :(:(:(:(:(:(

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

thanks, I suspected that you wouldn't understand because these things are too complicated for you. Read more instead of making such silly claims here please.

e: example for the slower ones:

2000 guys say that lumia 900 is a huge success, 2000 guys say that it flops completely. An year after the beginning of lumia 900 sales we have 2000 guys who were correct and 2000 forgotten guys who won't be talking about their predictions. So: "A lot of people said at launch of lumia 900 that it would be big" .......

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

from your circumvolutions it take it your prediction is that Lumia (900) will be a... flop?

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Actually nokia is burning helluva piles of money by keeping symbian development running. Running it down symbian releafs approximately 6800 employers nokia doesn't need to pay salary after this year. Care to calculate financials? 6800 people x 4250€(this is probably couple thousand euros too small. it is 2500€ plus employment costs in finland). Approximately 29M€ per month. Then employer naturally needs to pay 13 months salary per year in Finland. 3,7B€..... and what have they gotten with that ~4B€ in an year? A bit under 50% of Nokias revenues in 2011. Well, Belle has been installed to some phones, my N8 probably still waits the update, haven't switched it on for a while. It is a simple what if calculation: what if symbian was driven forward full speed without sacking people and the strategy fails even without ceo saying bad things about the os?

I don't even know why I am hanging out here still, now it has been long enough from burning platform -memo to consider about everything that has been said and processing the shock about major changes in nokia. Processing major changes is always an issue for people who always tend to hang on tightly to something they have accustomed to. But after time passes one should start thinking about things more objectively and analyze why oneself has thought something and reassess if it was sane in the first place. Symbian will be buried, maemo will be testing platform for new ideas (as it has been all its life, only the usability has rocketed since 770 to at least nearly match any modern smartphone, maemo has always had some radical features nowhere to be seen in top seller phones) and WP will be the main platform.

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/i/20...77-d33jsoi.jpg


e: I forgot one essential thing with 3 letters:
IBM
http://www.economist.com/node/18805483

It hasn't been kept alive by hangin on to magnetic tapes, is it?

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

you can say whatever you want, I want to have official figures because IMO this prediction stuff only makes you look like a fool.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Nokia has really shot itself in the foot, and unless they fire Flop (or he gets brainwashed by TMO ninja apes), they're going nowhere fast with WP.

The iPhone took off immediately after release.
People were rushing to get a G1.
WP7 was immediately met with stiff criticism from alienated (and very vocal on XDA) WM6 fans.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

if you want to wait next year to make your "forecasts" for this year, i think Wizard may have had a point...:rolleyes:

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

spring 2011 AT&T showed interest in selling the NOKIA X7 (if memory serves well) in the US... the 2nd largest provider of the country, so far having the iPotato monopoly in the US...
that was six months after the "burning platform" memo & a couple months after Flopocalypses... NOKIA turned it down

even though NOKIA Belle isn't outselling Android, not even iOS, objective mobile phone critics agree that the revamped Symbian starts to show promises and fans are getting quite excited.
more then you can say about LostDOS Paralyzed, isn'it?

indeed, NO REvolution, Evolution...
any stochastic change tend to be unbalanced (by definition) and tend to return... to the initial state or a condition close to it (see October revolution as a patent historical example...)
Flopocalypse was a revolution, NOKIA after the Flop will look very much like the NOKIA before it (Symbian or whatever is left of it and some foray into "disruptive technologies")
the longer they wait, the worse it'll be.
EDIT: who knows, maybe they'll fall back to boots... :eek:

and yes, iPhone & Co was a revolution...
the difference? already in 2007, Apple had the cash to afford a total loss at the small scale they started it.
that it is meanwhile the most sold smart phone (by individual device) is the result of a bet Steve Jobs was willing to make and could afford.

i shouldn't even bother, but, hell, got that far...
BIG BLUE isn't doing PCs, Laptops, tablets or the like anymore;
they outsourced that business to Lenovo, just like NOKIA outsourced Symbian to Accenture.
the Lenovo K800 has nothing repeat nothing to do with IBM
capiche?

but yes, BIG BLUE, just like HP, Xerox (GM?, Chrysler?) is one of the blue chips that has been around for a long time & most likely will still be around... in the future.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

I am not making any forecasts, stop putting words to my mouth.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Indeed... no matter how much symbian would improve, still its success would completely dictate nokias fate. If it fails, nokia fails. If WP fails, nokia can just stop paying license payments to ms at the same second, no need to wait for an year or more to get rid from paying own (ex)employers..


exactly! just as Nokia isn't doing OS development (outside R&D projects such as maemo) anymore... big blue is still around because they have the balls to stop what they are doing and focus elsewhere they can compete (khrm nokia and HW manufacturing + logistics) if future doesn't seem that bright.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Why just having one operating system? Nokia can do Symbian, Meego, Android and WP.

Is there not possible to run andriod on N9 with meego soon? It is just java, a vm on top of the operating system.

What Nokia is doing that is failing badly is that they are putting all apples in one basket. And they are focusing on the worst possible solution

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

The only thing that can possibly work (assuming win devs would have a hard time switching to maemo, not so sure at this point, expecting quality devs in M$, even if legacy stuff makes them most hated, or just most-used-platform getting most-popular-hate) and hopefully is a plan from the beginning:
fire all maemo/harmattan devs as we cuddle with WP, WP fails completely, hey guys we didn't mean it, but stock plunge and world crisis makes us offer you 1/2-3/4 of what you've been paid so far. Hope some will return. Then there is also option of M$ buying Nokia. Ballmer probably won't, but Gates could gain some pr points in funding open-source mobile OS for africa (and TMO), not like this would be a massive hit to android/iOS and not even a graze for desktops

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Because having devs for one OS is straining enough financially. Quadruple R&D is not economically viable. Check few posts up, costs are HUGE

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Microsoft will not buy Nokia, that is very bad business. Microsoft will not sell more mobile phones than Nokia does

I think Microsoft is using Nokia to gain some market share until the can focus harder with Apollo. If Nokia dies spending money on something that is good for Microsoft, it doesn't matter. This is just business and a very good deal for Microsoft

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Why do you need to have a lot of devs and do heavy R&D?

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

If they continue on Elop way they will surely sell less. But buying Nokia means also buying innovative stuff, like harmattan. And cashflow from PR is hard to account for. If they go U2 way opening embedded systems through GNU they will chop iOS/android tree easily. Who will keep producing java devices once you get free access to source and have ability of using 100% of the device? Quad core providers will not be happy, but chinese producers would gladly provide better systems and GNU never stopped them

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Supporting 4 OSes works that way. You hire 4 times more people than Apple for example, and considering yearly costs in Billions for one OS... you can tell the rest

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Not with open source.
Supporting linux based OS is very cheap. Others are doing the job. Only problem is that you can't sell the operating system but thats not a problem for Nokia.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Windows Phone is a spectacular failure already. And don't get me wrong I like the OS. But it's an OS that got 9 handsets at launch (14 today), 3 out of 6 top smartphone manufacturers plus Dell (2nd biggest pc manufacturer), is backed by Microsoft and has managed to sell less than Samsung's bada which appeared in one phone and it's successor.

I don't know if windows and IE are poisonous brands or if windows mobile was so crap that destroyed next generation sales (even the version numbering is too close. Nobody with experience in WinMo where almost nothing changed between 2 and 6 will believe that a lot changed between 6.5 and 7) but windows phone is the worst smartphone launch ever.

You can't compare it to android or iOS in numbers. Apple had never made a phone before and it was not sold in most markets and was constrained to one operator.

The G1 was made by a relatively unknown then HTC. HTC had only WM offerings until then - WM was notoriously buggy but not everyone knew about OSes then some surely attributed the bugginess to the manufacturer.

The G1 never appeared in most markets. Even the magic a year later was overpriced (it had the same price as N97/N900 and i8910, massively superior phones) and not widely marketed.

It is very probable by the numbers pubished that even the N900 itself outsold all WP handsets, while they were simultaneously on the market.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apart from the WP failure, Nokia had what all the manufacturers want. They had control of the ecosystem. They had revenues from ads and maps and apps. They had the ultimate possibility to customize look and feel. Box movers like dell have about 2% profit margins. All-in-ones like apple have massively bigger profit margins. That's why IBM sold the pc business, that's why HP tried to do it. Samsung want their own OS so that they can have that control now that Google is starting to shorten the leash on android customisation.

Samsung didn't manage to jump to the top of the manufacturers by moving android boxes. They pursued a multi-platform strategy to please everyone. Apple did that (briefly) by controlling the whole system tightly and by delivering world class experience to it's users plus sexy hardware and awesome marketing.

Nokia had the best of both worlds, and that is what kept it at the top for so many years. Control of the system, vast options in price, form factor, features, and market target. Now they ditch that for one option (iPhone weakness) and no differentiation from other manufacturers (android weakness).

Where will all the E-Series users go? (the E-series were on par with the blackberries in units sold each and every quarter) Now even microsoft admits that WP is not business oriented (That is probably why WM still outsells WP)

Where will all the cheap smartphone users go? Lumia 710 is just on the minimum WP specs and it is still about double the price of the cheap symbian phones.

And finally all WP's look and feel exactly the same. Maybe some will fall for the polycarbonate, but the differentiation is minimal. Where is the gaming WP? Where is the ultra high res WP? Where is the supercamera WP? The max specs that microsoft forces on manufacturers are so obsolete and so near the minimum that all phones are almost the same 1ghz - 1.5ghz, 8gb - 16gb, 5mp - 8mp (with one exception) are all the differences between 14 WP models.

Look at the press about L800 and N9. They are essentially the same thing HW wise (nfc is crippled and the front camera is useless on the N9 so specwise they are about the same - L800 has less memory but the faster cpu balances the scale). But the N9 got raving reviews, the L800 got "ok another WP" reviews. And that is true, I have not one reason in the world to replace my year old Optimus 7 (that I bought at 200euros unsubsidized) with a Lumia 800 costing 530 euros.

I think that yes, the signs are here that WP is failing and the signs were there that IOS and android were growing. None of them skyrocketed the first year, but they didn't actually decline!

Sorry for the essay, but I think there are some useful facts in there even if you don't share my opinion

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Microsoft don't need PR and they certainly don't want bad PR. When a company is that big as Microsoft is then I think the big problem is how to stay big without making customers too angry. They have monopoly on the PC

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Based on that Canonical is run for free. The word support entails few things which are not cheap. Elop's idea of one OS is based mostly on cutting few billions from fail OSes(in his appraisal) and concentrating on something that will bring billions in the end (endless funding by m$ helps). But sure, we can afford developing 4 OSes - that is hopefully history

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

And that is only chance for maemo, making their CEOs aware that undercutting iOS/android with gnu project is both harmful to their competitors while at the same time being awesome to the public

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

MeeGo Harmattan is just a thin layer over linux, it is NOT an OS that has been developed by Nokia.
Same with Android, it's just a layer over the linux core.

What Nokia needs to do and what they have done is to make the first graphical layer to work, they have the power to make it fly. When that is done, you are going to have a lot of people that are willing to participate. I have checked some of the code and it isn't that hart to work with

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

What layer are you talking about??? Maemo IS linux. Bit outdated libs (libglib/libstdc++/...) but linux, unlike android vm. Try downloading source and 'make'ing anything on those (sdk repo required, but out of the box anyway, for Fremantle at least). Still support entails more then you would like to admit.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Bullsh*t. Not so bright are you? You are only trying to justify the failure of WP7. After more than a year, selling even less than the older version. You're just being a WP7 troll. Is Obvious. You don't need to reply cause I won't read it.