NFC Payments N9
 

Hello,

I was wondering if the N9 ever will support NFC payments. It seems it will come down to the following:

NFC needs a protocol to do a secure transaction. This is called Secure Wireless Protocol, SWP.

Both the C7 and the N9 are launched, and Nokia said they will never support NFC payments. I don't know the chipsets in the N9 and the C7, so I can't tell the differences. Anyway, I don't know if SWP is a hardware or a software protocol.

On some places I readed Meego Harmatten does support SWP. And if it doesn't, someone in the community will create it.

But now this. Nokia said some time ago the C7 will support NFC payments, starting from April this year. And remember, in the start of both phones they said they would never support it.

So why am I so optimistic about NFC payments? Well, not only because it is easy. The N9 is a expensive phone, and should be made somewhat futureproof. Lots of experts say NFC will be a big payment method in 2013/2014. And if I spent like $600 on a new phone that has NFC, but doesn't support the thing it is actually meant for, that will be very disappointing.

Can someone clear this one up?

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

It needs a secure-element which supports SWP. The NFC chip it uses doesn't have that... :(
However there may be a way to add a secure-element by using a sticker or SIM w/that embedded. (they do exist or are planned apparently)
No idea if it's technically feasible to add support this way, but those two routes are our last hope AFAIK.
Maybe it's possible to add support via use of a USB dongle eventually too (once/if we have host-mode).

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

I still believe it is possible.

The C7 couldn't in the start, now it can. I want to know wich NFC-Chip is integrated in the N9. Does somebody know that?

If the chip in the N9 does support SWP, what is unsure now, we know it can be added later. Some intuition says the N9 uses the same NFC chip as the C7... That should open a world of possibilities.

Edit: I read at many places thee N9 uses the NXP PN544 Controller Chip. Well, this are the official specs. It reads, yes, NFC Payments. Could someone work out this somewhat better?

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

nfc payment shold be granted by visa/master card. its not software related :D

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

That's true if is not industry sanctioned then it's never going to happen.
But those stickers & sims are part of ISIS's (& others) plans "apparently".

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

That story says nothing about retrospectively adding a secure-element to the C7?
It may still be possible to add one via the various means I mentioned, no idea if it's feasible (technically) though.

I can't find the discussion now, but it was confirmed that the chip used by the N9 doesn't have the necessary secure-element.
But if you can identify the exact NFC chipset used, & can can confirm it does indeed support secure-element/SWP.
Well... I'll have your baby.... :)

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

i have the data sheet, i thought for the chip. Ill post it later.

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

Cool, please do share.

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

Actually, SWP stands for Single Wire Protocol.

The SWP is the protocol you need to communicate the NFC controller chip with whatever secure elements may be available.

Therefore, if you have a NFC controller that supports SWP (like the NXP PN544 the C7 and the N9 have), the device has the needed additional hardware support for it (something I don't know if the C7 or the N9 really have), and there is the needed software support for that in the firmware, you could use a secure element within the UICC.

So the lack of an eSE in the device doesn't pose any problem... as long as the SWP support is in place.

Best regards.

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

That is correct, but also you will need additional pin on sim card connected to nfc chip (sim card as SE is the only option left). And driver support for that.

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

More info is available.already here
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=82571

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

Just like I said. Please read the whole message (after the PN544 part). :D

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

That I did not know, can you point to the doco which proves that the N9 uses this chipset?
How would one access this protocol support, does the OS already support it, is it merely disabled?

This whole paragraph is ambiguous to me.
Additional hw support for what? What's the UICC?
Can you please clarify what you're saying here.

This is similar to what I've always hoped for, which is;
A SE can be added via some other means, that SE has NFC/SWP integrated, & that somehow the OS can hook into that.
But what you're suggesting it seems, is that one just adds a SE*, & the SWP/NFC built into the N9's NFC chipset is used.
Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you.

*via SIM most likely but possibly other options.

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

Thanks I'll read that when I've got a minute.

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

Please have a look at this picture of the internals of the N9:

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/6403/14310019.png

The NFC controller is the chip labelled NXP 44501 at the top on the right side.

About the software support the N9 firmware may have for the SWP protocol, I just have no idea.

SWP is a protocol for communicating the NFC controller with the existing SE (secure elements). Therefore, a physical path between them must exist. Does such routing exist in the N9? Again, I have no idea.

By the way, UICC stands for Universal Integrated Circuit Card, most commonly known as SIM card. Any SE you wanted to use with the N9 should be within the UICC, as there is no eSE (embedded secure element) in the handset itself.

Exactly. If the SWP support is in place, just put a SWP compatible UICC card in your phone and that's it.

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

In the Netherlands payment in parking garage's and in canteens of sports facilities is normal, however it is used with 'tags' or an NFC sticker on the mobile phone :(
No NFC chips in the phone are used as of now, but we are promised that it will be here this year and widely available.

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

Cool, hopefully more is revealed soon.

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

I would like to know if N9 is capable on using NFC on RFID 125 kHz frequency?
Info about nxp pn544 http://www.nxp.com/documents/leaflet/75016890.pdf

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

NFC (not just the N9, but any NFC device) only operates at 13.56 Mhz.

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

We´re about to have NFC payments in Brazil.

Take a look at this video (it´s in portuguese, but I think you can get the point).

http://youtu.be/o12U6NXgDLw

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

That looks really nice @igorIt

It looks like it can be done. I hope other payment providers pick this up.

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

thats person to person w/ nfc phone. we talking about paying at 7eleven with your nfc phone. like the galaxy nexus s.

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

Be patient, there are companies developing sim cards to make this happen, last I heard.

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

Did some research on this and found that the galaxy nexus s (phone i know does payments at your local store) has the same controller as the n9 BUT it also has an embedded seccure element as well. is thhere hardwire connection between them?

From the attached picture you can see that the secure element is connected through i2c to the NFC controller, looking at the N9 schematic, the i2c is connected to the OMAP processor/3axis mangnetometer through the main flex/accelerometer/gps(bob). So this is not possible on the N9 without hardware mods and a rebuilt kernel with NFC FRI implementation for secure element support.

Also the SIM is shown connected to the SWP in the picture if this an "air interface"? Then what Arie says is possible without any hardware changes to the board. I think it might be. So go on an endless search for a SIM that has a SE built in it.

Can anyone check what software support we have built in the Kernel in the NFC? The article says in android its in found in the external/libnfc-nxp.

link to my source.
www.nfcworld.com/2011/02/13/35913/uncovered-the-hidden-nfc-potential-of-the-google-nexus-s-and-the-nokia-c7/

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

We´ve just launched a new video (in english) showing PagSeguro NFC.

http://youtu.be/0dap5eP8BEw

The secure element is needed when you store the credit card data into the NFC.

PagSeguro NFC doesn´t work this way. All the credit card information is always in the cloud.

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

igorlt, can you share that app? it would be great to see it in action.

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

We´re gonna put it soon on Nokia Store. But to use it, you need to have an account on PagSeguro that is available only for brazilian customers.

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

When is it going to be available?

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

Between May and June

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

Will it ever be available for other countries?

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

igorlt, btw, is n9 is so poular in brazil? :) surprised that n9 is starring in this commercial, instead of android and iphone.

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

N9 is not that popular, but the app is also compatible with Nokia C7 and Nokia 701.

iPhone doesn´t have NFC yet. And the first Android (Nexus) with NFC has just arrived here. So, Nokia is beating its competitor in this point.

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

this is a good idea, I think paypal should do something with this!!

Re: NFC Payments N9
 

Another video... this one shows our employees using the #PagSeguroNFC app to buy snacks

http://youtu.be/c1ukXiSZD2k