Re: Council election
 

i don't have a Harmattan device, thus yes, Fremantle is my primary interest, obviously.
still i think the community (Maemo.org) will have a much harder time surviving if we don't do away with this fragmentation

thus, for Harmattan, (some of) the persons who developed closed bits are still around and available (to work on those closed bits)?
NOKIA still seems to actively develop OS2011.
working on a OS2012/3, maybe?

Re: Council election
 

No Dan. I want you to not troll THIS thread. If you insist on continuing the pedantic Nokia bashing, find a more appropriate outlet. This isn't it.

EDIT: on the other hand, if you want to constructively criticize Nokia decisions that are germane to the topic, I'll not only get off your back, I may even agree with and support you. My issue as a moderator is more with the abject hostility than the intent.

Anyway, don't expect further posts like that to stand in this thread. I'm pretty lax on topic-veering and even silliness but there's a point called "enough".

Back to the topic...

Re: Council election
 

I'm not aware of anybody at Nokia working on this. I'm not the best person to assess the complexity of this task.

Presumably http://wiki.qt-project.org/Qt_5_on_Nokia_N9 would be useful to make an estimation and recycle some work?

Re: Council election
 

The abject hostility might be proportional to the abject futility over the years, but your point is understandable. How this benefits either Nokia nor consumers that purchase their hardware is beyond me. After getting burned and watching how it's gone, I'm not compelled to purchase again and I just keep waiting because it WAS hopeful and MeeGo just melted away similarly, if not quicker.

The questions I asked still remain unanswered and unsatisfied except for some distracting 'hey, guy! look over there!' sort of responses. Nothing that sounds like collaboration or forward momentum so far. Anybody from any side care to give a proper answer about open-sourcing crucial, still-closed portions that prevent new kernels and enable a fully functional operating system (at LEAST on older hardware Nokia doesn't support anymore, for crying out loud)?

Re: Council election
 

While not Maemo/Fremantle, we're bringing it to the N900 through Nemo/Mer (see http://review.merproject.org/494). I don't see any big technical reason why you couldn't run Qt5 on maemo though - albeit the libxcb may be old.

Re: Council election
 

The approach taken with the Harmattan program at Nokia was rather simple, since it happened along the MeeGo project. All the pieces that Nokia wanted to share were contributed in the context of MeeGo or Qt, most of them while they were being developed. For all the rest Nokia had a strong business reason to keep it Nokia proprietary (and then there were the usual binaries from third parties).

A lot of Harmattan proprietary UI code happens to be written as / for MeeGo Touch Framework, which is currently unmaintained since all the development went for Qt Quick.

Whatever is closed between Qt and Kernel is probably either a delicate piece or a component unique of Harmattan, not developed further and with an OSS alternative at MeeGo upstream.

What do you want opened and why? Maybe there is an alternative solution. The Mer project and people here like timoph or Stskeeps know that path very well.

Re: Council election
 

I thought the answer was clear. Nokia doesn't have plans to open any Fremantle or Harmattan code at this point, neither previous OS200* versions.

Re: Council election
 

Yep. Here's your proof. Just added a Lumia 900 to the list.

But there's more than 3 of us on this project, two are remote. I ask for not only myself but others that are curious about sourcing MeeGo and Symbnian devices.

Since the 808 will invariably not be released in the US, that's also a question/concern.

Dang it, I should have quoted you. You removed your post it seems.

Re: Council election
 

Getting the basics running on Fremantle would most likely not be that hard, since there is still support for C++98 compilers newer than GCC 4 (I don't know if we require any specific version, I think anything 4.0 or newer will do). A more difficult problem might be whether codebases like V8 will work, but probably not an insurmountable problem.

That wouldn't give you platform theming of QWidgets though, because that was rather heavily hacked into Maemo's Qt. It might be possible to resurrect most of it as a style plugin, or perform the same hacks again, though.

[EDIT]: ah, it would also require a relatively new libxcb (and dependencies) built for fremantle - I don't think they exist already, though I don't know for sure.

With regards to the N9 port - it won't give you all that much useful. Fremantle's display stack won't have the hacked up XI2 support that the Harmattan port uses - but fremantle doesn't have multitouch anyway, so that's no major loss.

[EDIT 2]: I definitely don't have the time (or desire) to work on this myself, but I'm happy to act as a point of contact / mentoring from a Qt perspective for anyone wanting to try take this on.

Re: Council election
 

How about at LEAST just enough to have newer kernels and supporting software, so that the software we run on our devices can continue to be maintained properly, patched with security updates and able to evolve along with the Linux kernel. Meanwhile, even the most ancient of Android devices (i.e. my old Droid, which doesn't seem to want to stop getting updates from CyanogenMod--just got yet another last month) are getting the latest Linux kernels thanks to the AOSP. I don't understand the 'strong business reasons' for preventing newer kernels and tools from compiling to existing hardware. While even my old 486DX4/100MHz sitting in the corner can still boot a MODERN Linux kernel I can compile, my supposedly far more capable Nokia N800 cannot. This is hardly the "Linux" experience I expected when I picked up the device with so much promise.

My interpretation from your answer is pretty much 'too bad' (is that right?). Well, that would be consistent with the rest of my experiences with Nokia (support especially) and this was the last dangly string of hope for SOMETHING to redeem the investment and damaged reputation of Nokia and salvage some kind of brand loyalty. Mind you, you're hardly to blame--you're just the messenger but it's disappointing.

I'm done with this line of questioning. It might have, at this point in time, satisfied my questions about how the council will be able to communicate and represent community needs to Nokia and how receptive Nokia will be to community concerns and interests. heh It's good to have some clear communications about long-standing community concerns before elections are up. Thank you.

Re: Council election
 

guys, you are way off topic...

Re: Council election
 

The greater problem we are facing in my opinion is that although we have hundreds of thousands of well written code, there is not something we can call upstream. There are many branches of software with great potential but a small-time developer does not know what to follow.

The success of the N900 was in part that it supported just about whatever a pc supports. You can write code in C, C++, GTK, Qt Widget, qml, cli python, python-pyside, python-pyQt, python-pyGTK, even php and go.

I would really much like to see a coordinated effort (don't take me wrong, I do not mean that xxx developers move to yyy, no way. Every developer codes whatever he likes) to have a base (mer?) where we take some care to make our code compatible. So the effort going on on cssu can live on e.g. when cordia runs fine on mer. And make sure that nemo apps can run too on it.

For example there is still no e-mail client on nemo. Could modest run as is with the cordia libs even without running a cordia session?

I don't know if I was clear enough and I don't want to start a flame war about what is the correct direction. I just believe that we can have a general direction that runs everything just like Maemo does, but with a newer, and more open base.

This should be on the agenda of the new council, to draw a plan of the future of maemo, and facilitate communication between different teams. As a next step there could be a standardization group who would set up and document some standards that all maemoers can follow.

Re: Council election
 

matter of asking the right questions, maybe ;)

Re: Council election
 

oky doky...
you don't show on Candidate declarations (yet?)
are you candidate to the Council?

EDIT: also have to say, i don't agree with the OFF TOPIC label; maybe it was already clear to you where Maemo is headed & all (???), but for me it really brings some more information to ponder
think Danramos agrees to that too
and... Silence is loud ¦-)

(POST-EDIT: don't forget the question ;))

Re: Council election
 

thanks to qgil, Stskeeps, w00t and qwazix for your clarifications about Qt 5 on Maemo 5 and the development of Maemo in general.
even though having been using KDE pretty much since the beginning (at least on GNU / Linux), i'm not much of a OS / Framework developer, alas :(
played with the thought of creating some simple Qt widget to display system stats (mostly temperatures) but at the end of the day, holding the N900 in your hand tells you right away whether some process went rogue & is frying the CPU :mad:
guess i will try & get Nemo running on my spare N900 & see where that goes... :o

Re: Council election
 

Back to topic, for instance:

Re: Council election
 

why all the fuss?
still only 4 candidates...

Re: Council election
 

qgil: In regards to the device program. I think there are some really great people that are deserving of the Nokia devices here that weren't given one. Sadly though it seems the people that were given them only a few have actually used them to make the apps they said they would.

In this device program can we make sure that we keep up with the people that say they will make a program and make sure it happens. I am all for giving devices if it makes things come about, if not, I don't think people should be given devices. Personally I know some people that were given devices that haven't done anything for the N9's development or haven't kept their word to develop what they said they would.

As much as I like Launchpad, some of our best developers here are not part of Launchpad and will probably never join it.

An example is Schturman or Itsnotabigtruck. These people have tried to give the N9 life through their development and from what I can tell neither of them are part of the Launchpad program or even remotely involved in the whole process, but are very deserving of an N9 to be able to test their development on.

Re: Council election
 

This has nothing to do with Council election. Please share yous proposals on how to avoid or fix the problems you describe in the ongoing mailing list thread. Thank you.

Re: Council election
 

the devices weren't given out as an advance.
they were given to developers who had proven their skills and dedication with past contributions, assuming they would carry on.
can you blame them not having done so 100% but having looked for an alternative instead?

shouldn't the blame be with NOKIA or, more specifically & usefully, with its current management and its lack of vision (not to say blindness :mad:)?

give ppl something to develop for and they will.
not that that much development gets actually done on the devices; most of the time it is done in an IDE (Integrate Dev. Environment). even though it is nice to have a real test "environment" :rolleyes:

EDIT: btw Arie, what is your position relatively to being candidate for the Council?

Re: Council election
 

doesn't it?
what is the Council going to do, then? :eek: :confused:

Re: Council election
 

Where is that thread?

Re: Council election
 

You seemed to know, sorry:

http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/mae...il/005134.html

Re: Council election
 

It seems obvious to me that a proposal for a device seeding activity is unrelated to the Council *election*.

There is an ongoing discussion, linked above. Please join it and contribute your ideas if you are interested.

Re: Council election
 

Arie, I responded to your PM with the link to subscribe to the mailing list on which you confirm your candidacy. Please do so.

Re: Council election
 

PM'd, waiting for reply.

Re: Council election
 

Send an email to the list accepting your council nomination.

Re: Council election
 

Done, I am now nominated.

Re: Council election
 

someone made a banner for the election. Could someone explain me what is the problem in puting it on TMO? what is the blocker for this?

Re: Council election
 

I remember seeing it posted here :) http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=138

Re: Council election
 

thanks!
any chance you could add a Candidate declaration?

Re: Council election
 

thank you for filling in :o
i didn't see any mail coming along about your nomination nor did i see a post (though i may missed that)
are you candidate to the Council too?

Re: Council election
 

Damn, Could You learn to write all Your crap into one post? Even having You in ignore list, You spam my thread view with 143234 posts in row.

Maybe we should add new rule about notorious multi-posting? It would at least banish abil_uk with his all fake personalities (mistercrap being one amongst them).

Sorry for off-topic, it's just becoming unbearable...

/Estel

Re: Council election
 

I think that misterc's posts in this thread are more than reasonable, and I don't think he should be banned nor he is the same person as abill_uk.

Re: Council election
 

Uhmm... I think you may need to lay off the meds a little Estel. :rolleyes:

misterrc != abil_uk, at least not AFIK. At least, if he is, he's been doing/saying useful things on here, not ranting or going off on tangents like the previously mentioned person used to.

One of the many dangers of banning people: If you screw up and ban someone by accident, or because you assume they're someone else because they expressed a common view, you wind up ignorant of reality. Hiding your view of the crazies of this world for short periods of time can good for one's sanity. Doing so perpetually leads toward a myopic, delusional, skewed view of things in the long term.

That's the main reason I don't use banning (with 2 lifetime exceptions so far): It's not conductive to being informed about topics in life. And when I do use it, I revisit said bans occasionally to see if the being crazy part has stopped. :)

Re: Council election
 

i never liked your ideas but in the spirit of freedom i listed you & tried to keep a dialog going...
can't help feeling you are the kind of "cadet" in the Hitler youth (or, considering your origin, whatever Stalin's equivalent was...)

congrats, you just made it on my ignore list...
not that i ever intended to vote for you, but, honestly? i think you should land on a list of ppl not to elect on the Council

Re: Council election
 

Please for God sake
stop fighting both of you

and please don't post unnecessary things which hurts

edit/ it hurts for those whose love maemo community
so for us leave it

let us decide whom to vote

Re: Council election
 

beg to differ :|
Estel's post was uncalled for, certainly on this thread.
i say: DO NOT VOTE FOR ESTEL.
definitely belongs on this thread

Re: Council election
 

I say: Vote for the best.
Now that we've established on-topic relations lets have a jab at people we don't like...
Just kidding, vote for the worst

Re: Council election
 

glad you didn't lose your sense of humour b/c of the altercation :o
back to topic, indeed. :cool:

EDIT: i'm not candidate, thus, by all means, go right ahead... do not vote for me ¦-))))