Re: Council election
 

if that's any help, i could put my candidacy up as well, so there would be 6 candidates & i suspect an awful lot of ppl very motivated to vote (for anyone but me :p)?

Re: Council election
 

True. Yet, I still prefer to do it with "Maemo" people :) for gals and guys that have successfully hacked half-undocumented half-closed system to current point of usability, creating a usable stack for fully open system would be a piece of cake, yep? ;)

/Estel

Re: Council election
 

While it would be great to get more code, I also think that route is going to prove futile in the long run. Not to say it's not something to keep in the file, but it's more like plan K now, vs plan A/B. :) The larger push right now is to make sure licenses are aligned so that, should Nokia become the next Megaupload, the builder and tools needed for the community to continue can be shared freely.

As has been pointed out already, if Nokia implodes that badly, then licenses won't be an issue, since there will be no lawyers to go after people breaking said licenses. The bigger worry is they become like Kodak, and it gets piece-mealed into something else that does still have lawyers. That avenue is being probed/explored right now by Council (and a few non-council that are helping out).

While I agree that people running for Council should make their POV clear on this, I think the appropriate place would be to add a question about it to the wiki page (there is already one that's close to it, btw), and ask that people check/update their answers and statements there.

Also, some people that have not answered (or even accepted their nomination yet...) are already quite active in efforts to move things forward for the community. Doing things like exploring setting up an OBS that would be easier to move/migrate with existing or developing OBS with other groups. They may be doing important things like that instead of following this thread, which for a while now has gone way off topic.

Re: Council election
 

I don't see why your accepting nomination should hinge on having 6 candidates. If everyone did that, there would be 0 current candidates. We need all the active and involved people we can get. Plus it would be really nice to have at least one council member overlap into the next term, if for no other reason than to provide an historic perspective on what's happened in the last term or so.

I took nearly 5 days for mine to update once I linked it. There may be a way to speed that up. I'm sure it's just a cron job running somewhere that could be triggered early if need be. We should also be able to look at their user stats and from a quick bit of back-of-envelope math see if they're in the ballpark. The only way it would matter is if they were close, but not clearly in. If they have several hundred posts and thanks, good odds that's enough points on it's own to qualify.

Edit: Just ran Aries's numbers... and they're REALLY close. Nieldk is probably significantly under, but should link the account anyway in case my calculations are wrong.

Re: Council election
 

Both look over the threshold (100) to me. The formula is sqrt(posts)+8*sqrt(thanks). The two prospective candidates' post/thanks counts are 674/404 and 179/162 currently, making their t.m.o. karma components 186 and 115 respectively (rounded down).

Re: Council election
 

For some reason I missed the 8 multiplier on thanks. (I thought it was two for some reason; thus my miscalculation.)

As they've already accepted, when the recompute happens we will have 6 candidates running, or 7 if SD69 accepts, which I hope he does. That means we will need to hold an election.

Re: Council election
 

I am the only heavy Harmattan user that is a council candidate, we need a voice in the council.

Filled out my responses to community posed questions:
http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Coun...e_declarations

Re: Council election
 

i came to realize why Estel thinks i'm UK_Bill...
i'm rambling all the time about how NOKIA is the only chance for Maemo.
the only problem i see with that is that Estel with his secession ideas will bring infinitely more harm to Maemo then UK_Bill ever could have with his endless posting about USB port & all :(

will have to wait for the outcome of the election, i guess.
even so, should the secessionist win, the community may lose some of its members, but NOKIA will most likely continue Maemo.org, for the sake of supporting devices if nothing else.

glad ppl like Woody and Arie stepped up for a more conciliating approach.

let's hope for the best and plan for the worst :rolleyes:

Re: Council election
 

So far, I haven't seen you rant about the mis-use of the title 'sir'.. so I never suspected it. :)

Re: Council election
 

A few people criticized some of my efforts and pointed out that there was no vote either time I became a council member. I know, silly, but there it is and I appreciate those who support(ed) my efforts. Getting consensus in maemo is hard enough as it is so I'd like to be free of that particular thing.

Of course, the things you mention are more important. I'll accept my nomination with thanks and post a formal statement on the wiki page in a few days.

Re: Council election
 

Thank you Rob, for all the efforts you have made during the last Council period. I hope you can be part of the new Council as well.

Re: Council election
 

yep. In reality Rob has been in a really awkward position since he has been the only active council member for quite some time now. As I see it, it takes real dedication to run again. Let's hope we'll see a more active council this time around.

Re: Council election
 

To be honest, arguments that someone is "less" <whatever> cause there was no voting, when she/he become a Council member, is pure sophism. First of all, it's not candidate fault, that she/he was only one/amonsgt few willing to volunteer.

Second - if someone thing it's bad to not have votes, why not to propose change, that require votes every time? For now, we have some rules, and bi****ng about them being respected is out of line.

Third, it was used mainly by people, who were not able to find better "arguments" against meritum stated by SD69 - AFAIK, this infamous practice was started by former Nokia contact with Community (Marias), which makes me even more sad that it ever happened.

Anyway, it's all the past - pity, that it touched person so active in volunteering for Community - I hope that we're not to hear anything like that in future :) Also, I'm pretty sure, that this time we will have votes, and number of them dedicated to SD69 will be true overkill ;)

/Estel

Re: Council election
 

Rob,

with power / authority comes dissension.
autocrats deal with it ruthlessly (work camps and the like) and the members of the Council... need thick skin ;)
just because some didn't agree with the direction the community was going (or wasn't going :confused:) there are also a lot of trolls; most of the time their posts are obvious, sometimes more subtle, making you doubt of yourself or @ least of your actions.

however, you kept Maemo alive with your sheer will and made sure that the community continues to exist towards NOKIA
for that alone, you deserve the gratitude of the community :)
thanks!

i appreciate that after quite some time you feel like passing over the scepter.
i assume you would still remain in the community? maybe the new Council could ask for your advice (possibly by e-mail rather then on TMO) if they get confronted with a problem they can't handle?

the decision is yours, but either way the Community owes you!

Re: Council election
 

This is I believe misunderstanding when it comes to view on source. Open-source projects do not die. Sooner or later (having the source open) there will be enthusiast or a group of such that will have a go at the code. Drivers are the limiting factor. It's cool some suggest the money would be better spent at 100% open device, but we know results of such endeavours. Very much disappointing/lacking. Having a fully working (at N900 level at least) stack would be something worth focusing energy/money on. Having all those: we're gonna bring you heaven by different approach projects that fail sooner or later gives us nothing. Freemantle (or bought up mantle) could result in cool things. Would be a matter of reverse engineering drivers for one device that is most open, most cool at the time. Now we have to do all reveng for all devices/drivers or pray. Porting open component would be just a recompile.

Re: Council election
 

It may be cheaper, but also totally fail for now. So while you might put 1$ at failed program, it is not an argument, tell me of a succesfull reveng program and how much it cost. With fully open base costs should decrease dramatically. Your argument is: it is so costly, noone ever done it, so lets build a device from scratch, which accidentaly also was never achieved by anyone in a satisfactory fashion... how can you compare price???

Re: Council election
 

Which is exactly why opensourcing maemo code could change a few things. Once we get ARM (with erratas) working, all future processors are a go (or is ARM going anywhere?). Sure drivers are the limiting factor, but once they are the ONLY limiting factor maemo on any hardware can be a reality. Things in mobile world do not change from atari to amiga to pc all the time. Tegras etc will be a problem, still paying for reveng of drivers would be much less costly than expecting whole system on each and every device (also upstream all reveng'es to linux kernel and more people will join this community, no?)

Re: Council election
 

no, youre not ;) Iam a heavy Harmattan user (and dev) aswell, but agree, either way we need Harmattan voices in the council.
Filled out my responses on the Wiki also, but mainly we need representatiion of Harmattan. AND better involvement in the community by Nokia. Which I strongly believe is possible, given the right communication links (I do have some ideas on where to go and ask)

Re: Council election
 

To be honest, I don't see any sensible argument, why creating device from scratch should be more fail, compared to Your ideas. At least, we have some predecessors (Open Pandora, Raspberry Pi, etc), while no one *ever* 100% reverse-engineered device like N900.

If, by some unbelievable miracle, You would have enough money to buy/reverse-engineer/whatever way open N900 "Stack" fully, it would be much better spent creating new device, running mainstream debian, archlinuxor whatsnot. For that money, probably 2 or 3 of them, in straight line ;)

You're saying that developing own device is "we will bring You heaven" - to be honest, IMO ideas of fully opening N900/N9/whatever proprietary device You have in hand are even more unrealistic - basically, it just *won't* happen, ever. Probably, no matter how much time/money You spent on it.

don't get me wrong - as You probably noticed, I love N900. Yet, projects like CSSU/kernel-power are best we can achieve. There is no feasible way to go through/around closed hardware-specific bits. Ask any developer with brain and common sense. Period.

/Estel

Re: Council election
 

Exactly. You're comparing failed (maybe not PI, lets give it some time to mature) projects vs never reached open-source maemo at any stage. Sure go for Nemo or Openmoko, see how this is fruitless? With Fremantle you got _everything_ working, not 65% +/- one component or two...

Why not both? Once you got control (source) of maemo you can go whichever way you wish (more debian? why not, arch? your decision) How about you come up with amount you need to provide us two working/cool devices??? I bet with 1/10th of the cost we can come up with new chinese stars of reverse engineering to open up the rest (that is needed for FREEmantle at least), they are still cheap while VERY productive.
Thinking oldways. Think in new ways, open your mind for real possibilities. Don't claim failed projects banish all open thinking, they failed for their own reasons. This is what we need in council, oppenness for new ideas as old gave us fu..hit.

Re: Council election
 

I would love to have opening Fremantle possible, but I still fail to see how do You want to achieve it. *Ever* given millions of $$$ grants - which sounds even less possible, considering limited resources we have. Don't want to argue nor I'm planning to, but I don't see anything "new thinking" in planning to spend money we don't have on achieving goals we can't achieve (having money or not ;) ), technically.

IMO, sane thinking is "lets use resources we have/may have to achieve something non-existing now, but possible".

/Estel

// Edit

I don't consider Mer/Nemo as fail, in any way. Openmoko is dying due to design decisions, not overall concept. Pandora is working well, nothing seems worrying about Pi future. Vivaldi - while not being designed from scratch - is also looking more and more interesting every day.

Now, You can sum up money/time involved in all above projects, mix it up, and use to achieve hypothetic FREEmantle. You would waste every bit of it, still, without single percent, heck, even 1/1000 of what You would like to achieve :/

Re: Council election
 

I think you need to look at the ARM tree within the kernel. Getting things working for one specific ARM processor will get not get you very far at all with the next one. Unlike the x86 world, there's very little standardisation - even when the ARM core is the same, the rest of the on-chip hardware can be radically different (or even be identical but use different addresses, etc. for the same components).

Re: Council election
 

maybe you can afford to (re-)design a back cover in your workshop, but i doubt you could come up with an even remotely working device, or only it's design
you don't seem to have a clear idea of the cost involved in developing a (new) device.
this is the whole point of remaining dependent of NOKIA.
they provide a new device every now and then.

Re: Council election
 

So very very true, there are basically 2 ways. 1 sponsoring, and 2 sponsoring ;)
Besides the above joke. Sponsoring is the only feasible way forward, either by Nokia supporting us, letting the community in the development process (design ideas, platform, HW etc), or by obtaining sponsorships by funding. Now second one may be harder, we need to think quite deep on where it is feasible and likely to get sponsored, there are many options.
The most likely in my point of view, is sponsoring by Nokia. (please do start commenting LOL) as hard as this may seem, I do not think it is unobtainable. But we need to think out a win-win situation.
I believe Nokia would likely be open to design ideas, and also input for a platform that would attract not only the devs of the community, but also, through unique UI ideas, the general user.

Re: Council election
 

Here is my comment - LOL indeed. do you really think that Nokia - or any company - have interest in sponsoring competing, 100% FOSS, not proprietary (their lawyers would scream like banshee here) device? LOL, LOL, and ROTFL. Last time I've checked, they were not registered as charity.

Of course, there is need to contribution from Community, if we talk about designing own device. It may be either by skill/time (people skilled in hardware engineering), or by donations. No one said it's going to be free as in beer, our interest is the 2nd meaning of free :)
---

But, it's deriving too much int off-topic for this discussion. While it's probably OK for notorious "future of Maemo" talkers, which "contribute" only by talking, talking, talking and then some talking (waves to misterc), it's not what this thread was about.

/Estel

Re: Council election
 

@Estel
Thanks for LOLing ;)
If you believe I am 'only talking' I don't really blame you. Those who might have seen me on other forums for other platforms will know this is not the case.
As for Nokia as a registered charity company, no they are not, but they are one of two who are (somwewhat) open for input.
In other platforms community have a great cooperation with the phone manufacturers. Allowing some openness, but surely not complete (other companies play the hinder here - Nokia can not release sources for eg wireless network cards).
This does NOT stand in the way for a more open platform, but we need Nokia to be up to speed (Sony is a pretty good example here) and actively help us developing binary blobs for where it is needed.
So yes, I still say it is possible. And I will do my best to take part of the discussions with Nokia (also my employment situation makes this the more likely place for me to participate)
I will try this no matter the election fall-out. But surely to speak on the behalf of the community, this election is the proper way to go. Otherwise it would only be 'me' single person speaking, making it much harder (still, not impossible)

Re: Council election
 

First thing first - I wasn't referring to You as "talker" only, I hoped it's marked clear enough in my last post.

Generally, I would agree with You, if we would be talking 2 years ago - Nokia indeed looked or was such company then. But, now, everything You've said about them is "past". Elop (+ other fail executives on lower level) ruled Nokia doesn't comply here. I'm ever glad and surprised, that already started projects (whole QT thing) weren't sabotaged like Harmattan thing. But, IMO, it's all we can hope for.

don't get me wrong - I would really like to have things looking like You described them. Yet, guess where Open Pandora or Raspberry Pi guys would be now, if they would endlessly wait and "try to interest" big companies into creating product for them. It may be surprise to some, but there is no "great tactic" behind Nokia & Friends actions - no creative thinking, niches positioning, etc. Even Apple did their own niche some time ago, and run by momentum they've gained. Some of them seems to adapt what everyone else's adapt, some act like Nokia [ADHD(tm)]. There are small lights in some areas (part of Sony actions, that You've mentioned, but I would not agree to name them as "FOSS friendly" company), but generally, brain cells and common sense isn't valued very high in high-op cadres. It looks more like playground for never-grown-up boys (much less frequently, gals).

Cutting rant about "big gadget companies" lack of brain, I just don't see any company that would like to create device fitting our target. Of course I may be wrong, but it seems that if we won't fill our niche, no one will. It's even more than that - success of things like Raspberry Pi or Vivaldi (?) may actually bring interest of "I'm xero boy" companies like Samsung, to unused niche.

BTW, there is much expertise, that could be united. I'm sure many OpenMoko guys would share their knowledge/participate. We're talking about "computer first, phone as a function" approach, so there even are some Open Hardware designs, that we could base upon. I'm aware that we may be not able to use only 100% open (in terms of available software to power them) components - mainly graphic part - but hey, we don't need to get into heaven on first try. for most, availability to run every new upstream kernel would be a heaven-like already ;)

/Estel

Re: Council election
 

Vision without action is a daydream.
Action without vision is a nightmare

how blind can you be?
:|

Re: Council election
 

you are just making my point...
you are a clueless kid who found a toy (the N900) you may be very passionate about but without the slightest idea of economic reality.

this is becoming too personal, but if you live in the Poland i know of, you are Mami's or Dady's kid (who got a very expensive workshop @ home and is possibly studying to become an engineer of some kind) but, again, you have no clue of how much it costs to design, create & manufacture a electronic device the size of a mobile phone
:(

anyway, back to the topic...
should you get elected, there'll be four other members in the council who will (have to) hold you back to prevent you from destroying all the hard work of Rob :mad:

btw: when are those elections going to take place?

Re: Council election
 

@misterc lets stop the harrassing.
now, in order to develop a new device.
this is practically possible, without zillions of $$. Prototyping boards with all the necessary HW is available.
Now, when it comes to finish the product (design, custom mainboard, chips, screen etc) to a smaller, usable device, this is where it will start costing, probably hunfreds of thousands $.
THAT is where we need to look for sponsoring. Chip manufacturers, cell phone manufacturers or whoever would be interrested in sponsoring.

Re: Council election
 

my mistake :confused:
i was assuming we were talking about a *real* device to replace our beloved N900s (or N8x0s).

EDIT: i wasn't talking about developing a device ourselves
still strikes me as way over our heads.
i was assuming this was one of the projects that the secessionists had in mind....

Re: Council election
 

fixed
(10 chars)

Re: Council election
 

you can probably check the previous revision, guess the page got vandalized :(

Re: Council election
 

Seems Mrsellout already reverted the vandalization.

Re: Council election
 

BTW, any easy way to ban vandals? Where should we report them?

Re: Council election
 

Is the voting opened? Where to vote? Here http://maemo.org/vote/ I do not see the voting link
According to the wiki http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Coun...tion_Q1/2_2012 it should start on the 6. Maybe I've missed some info about it so please correct my thinking ;)

Re: Council election
 

The same for me, I can't find any voting page for Q1 2012

Re: Council election
 

We are on the move http://maemo.org/vote/vote.php?election_id=20 ;)
I havn't recived my token yet but is seems to me that the election will start soon ;)

Re: Council election
 

I just did: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12612#c11

The election and mailing will start in a few hours: 2012-05-15 00:00:00
Stop: 2010-05-22 23:59:59

Let me know if there is anything else you want me to do.

Re: Council election
 

No, it won't. See https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12612#c13

There is no consensus on the beginning of the mailing and the beginning of the election. It is the task of the Council chair to decide. I personally don't mind, but it's clearly not my call.