Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

Is there a problem with that, good sir? I thought it (among others) was a reason why this forum exists.

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

For the record, I didn't offer any job to anybody. Just a pointer to paths to promote Lumia devices better than arguing at maemo.org with the Maemo community.

PS: answering Lumiaman, Nokia funds the maemo.org infra but doesn't own it. The present and future of this community is decided by this community. I believe all this energy spent in personal attacks could be better invested in constructive discussion and collaboration around important community topics like http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=83398 but maybe it's just me.

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

Qgil, Lumiaman is a troll. Creating arguments here clearly amuses him, that's why he post provocative comments here, not because he wants to promote Lumia devices.

Now everyone, please stop feeding the troll.

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

It's not like we're feeding him steak. Even a troll can only stomach sh*t sandwiches for so long.

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

Well, that's a mighty convenient way to dismiss people who've been interested and following all along but didn't want to waste their money on the deranged direction of Maemo/MeeGo. Just the same, you still missed his point about how it should exclude participation. I hardly think exclusivity would be beneficial. Just look at how well Nokia has done by only listening to the dwindling number of people who've continued to blindly purchase their products.

As much as I've gotten to like Android and most people seem to think I'm married to it, I want to disagree. They would be FAR better served by admitting a mistake with the Windows Platform exclusivity and instead dig back into their far more progressive technologies where they were ALREADY ahead of most competitiors--namely Maemo and the tablets. Nokia has already announced they want to make a Windows Mobile tablet. You KNOW this is already a tragic decision. It's only very RECENTLY that tablets are incredibly popular and tying them to your wireless business (i.e. tethering to your cell phones for wireless ANYWHERE, in addition to the plethora of wifi availability in general) and services as a portable workhorse using Maemo and Linux would be a far smarter move. Windows has soured enough customers on the desktop and it's only on so many through underhanded business tactics, it's barely made a dent in any other category (servers, mobile, etc). Nokia SHOULD have played it smart and helped BURY a competitor instead of making sloppy sex with it and mixing two horribly failing DNA's while casting away all the good things they HAD done.

Had you been around long enough to remember, you might have experienced Maemo on its UPSWING rather than dismiss the folks that came in during the InternetTabletTalk days where we saw what a successful formula looked like. Perhaps that might even be reason to dismiss all the NEW people that only bought into Nokia within the last two years. Hmmmm! :)

At any rate--I responded, but this hardly has anything to do with the Maemo Council debate.

Can we please dispense with the nationalistic insults?
http://pleco.org/heh/insp_nationalpride.png

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

Please never use 'taliban', whos start it? No meaning to attack smart american, its special to mr dumbo lumiaman, sorry

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

Nah, I like being called Taliban. Once you think of guys that destroyed USSR, ended cold war and didn't frown during US invasion... pls more 'insults' like those

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

I don't know about that. He has been getting some pretty prime responses as far as I can see. Just consider how much shorter this thread would be without Lumiaman's input, that's his handiwork, he can look at it and smile. He doesn't care if his arguments get trashed, they are just put there to get a rise out people here, and to get them worked up, so if people resort to personal attacks against him, so much the better as far as he is concerned, it will just be water off a duck's back. He won't stop until he gets bored, and the easiest way to make that happen is to ignore him.

I'll admit I do enjoy reading a really good troll, they can be works of art, but they are few and far between, there is no subtlety in Lumiaman's posts and it is just sad that so many people respond to his bait.

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

Lumia means prostitute in Spanish slang. Its a subtle hint at what Nokia has become. How much more evidence do you guys need? Elop is the pimp, Microsoft is the male pornstar, WM7 is the condom and we are all greatly anticipating the outcome of the porn they made.

Elop is a bigot. Even Mark Shuttleworth (Ubuntu founder) spoke against Elop, calling him "short sighted".

In the coming years Elop will drown in his bigotry and disappear into an abyss of stupidity. Nokia will become junk, all the best talents have left and Microsoft will be suing everyone for coming up with ideas faster than them before ultimately becoming junk as well.

Then, i bet you guys will be happy. Right?

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

Not at all. That's the problem... people are unhappy with the decisions so far from Elop.

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

Evidence is all around spilling, just matter of interpretation remains. You can cherry pick data that follows your pre-determined idea (for or against Nokia doesn't matter as evident in few threads)
Worrying is the jump in logic which you also promote, lumia means prostitute therefore Nokia did that with MS. This argument is lacking at best and namecalling (or changin e->f in Nokia's CEO surname) while might gather you some support here changes nothing. Should I link again to the 'analysts' opinions iPhone will be a flop from 2007? How about you bet 100$ on Nokia fail if you feel so strongly sure. Ramblings of tomi ahonen are just the same, got nothing invested gonna cry: Buy houses in 2008. Nokia has money to keep it alive for a couple years at least, if mega-ad-push with apollo doesn't happen, gameover most likely. Name-calling while appealing doesn't change a thing

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

Ever since I started using mobile phones I had only Nokia devices from which I got some Nokia "experience". It's not only the so-called Elop effect. Nokia started way earlier to fail.

1. time to market
And ever since I learned of their bad marketing. They always announced a new phone so far in advance that probably not only me didn't buy a chosen device. Instead you waited for the announced to be delivered. Others would have forgotten by the time a phone actually entered the market. Or you would wait for the announcement of the *i version as the original one had some features missing and *i version usually were announced within a year (so did I with the 9300 and the 9300i).
They even did this now in their new alliance. How much time passed between announcing the alliance and announcing the first WP, and then between that and this first device actually entering markets? They tried to be faster this time which was one of the reasons for the quality issues unusual for Nokia (the other being the movement of production to Asia). They even copied a design (N9) to be faster to the market and still were slow.

And back then there was Apple entering that market, announcing a phone and delivering it soon after. This is one of the facts, that made it successful. If Nokia would have done it like Apple, they would have produced that Lumia phones and then announced their alliance with that phone in their hands. Thinking about it, copying the N9 design could have made the camouflage while working on a WP a lot easier.
But now they did it old Nokia style only this time with lots of impact. Having a Lumia in hand while announcing the alliance might have been convincing. Not having one made people think and shudder - even the more making more stupid announcements prior to releasing a WP to markets.

2. abandon visionary ideas before readiness of the markets
Another thing is this. Nokia phones (and maybe others) did have a lot of features way before the smartphone era started. Some got discontinued like the whole S80 line with fax, MS-Office document editing out-of-the-box, pdf-reader, a decent calender with full scheduling support ... Some got reinvented by others under a new name and carriers now charge extra for them. My old 6210 already got what is called tethering today, and I had only to pay gsm traffic, no differentiation between smartphone and notebook traffic. And I was able to use Java programs on my 6310i, I had several programs (like JIMM, FTP, ZIP or games) on my 9300i. Someone had to call them Apps to make this stylish and look like its never been there before.
I have seen the Communicator line end with the 9300i, with E90 and E7 being only a slow tickle after that. And I guess I will see the Linux tablet line end as well with N900 being the last and N9 being an afterglow. Funny thing that at the end of the Communicators the market for smartphone started to bloom, at the end of the Internet Tablets the market for tablets does the same.
So Nokia has always been discontinuing good ideas only to see others reinventing them. And they have had a good hand to end them just at the beginning of their uprise. And they have never pushed their innovative ideas much - I have never heard of a "See we have had a smartphone for a long time before smartphone era. It didn't have a touchscreen thou, but a great hwkb, office functionality and 800x480 screen resolution."

3. too much phones
They did it before, they are doing it again with their Lumia series. They flood the market with too many different phones. Not many wanted to program for S80 because it was a small market (but they didn't make that market bigger), not many wanted to program for S60 because there were too many different phone for which the programs had to be customized (thats the real failure of S60 so far).

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

I can't find a shred of evidence that is for Nokia, only against, that can be cherry pick, really I cant. The only thing I see is consistent bad news in messaging and promised green pastures in storytelling. A lot of people agree and have already made that bet otherwise Nokia wouldn't be trading with near junk status. The only positive I see is that Nokias PR has kicked into overdrive with “Messaging and Storytelling” and that it is at least aware of that strategy.

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

Most likely won't happen, but one thing I need to put here. Everyone is a comfy-chair revolutionist, will shout his ideas for the good of people while not moving his *** from the comfy. How about you throw a molotov? Elop did. Burned himself in the process (as all comfy-chair revolutionistst would, it is easy only from your pov), but he did try to save the brand. Going forward with what was generating losses as most advertise here as best solution would NOT save Nokia. Out of the comfort of your own comfy(or not) chair everyone here is shouting: die mofo. But in fact you are the problem. You killed nokia/maemo... by lacking in numbers. Intelligence of user does not translate into monetary gain. Had you more social/sheepish 1m facebook friends that woiuld buy those devices, WP would never smell Nokia. Fact is 50k of users cannot keep a corp alive, no matter how vocal they are. And Nokia blew millions of users away with beta symbian devices

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

This is usually the point in the conversation where someone asks:

"Are you on drugs?"

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

No. Bit drunk I admit though.

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

But please daperl, say that sticking to Symbian would save Nokia (lets all forget its messy state that was end of Nokia, no for that to happen: BAM, our imagination is better than reality) Add to that image board of investors who do not like their stock declining, no Symbian division general could convince them the **** they ,ushed to prod will turn into awesome product. Here comes Elop... rest is known

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

Let see if I understand. You're saying that because Nokia wasn't doing so great with symbian (someone could argue that after the launch of the N8 things started going better) they should go ahead and bet everything on one of the most unsuccessful products in the history of software.

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

No, no, no. He's saying that because Nokia wasn't doing so great with Symbian that they should *announce* to the world that they were going to kill Symbian and MeeGo (so that everyone would stop buying) and move with unilateral exclusivity to one of the most unsuccessful products in the history of software in six months. Pure brilliance.

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

Yes and no. They bet on not spending resources on R&D in soft (what is Nokia still known for? Awesome snake or rather sturdy handsets?) and using MS for that. Outsourcing coding division as much as hurtful for maemo does make sense in corporate view.

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

Meaning they went into direct competition with HTC and Samsung six months before they had a product to offer and with no counter-OS to mitigate their risk. As a CEO it was an utterly horrendous decision. At the very worst he should have shut his mouth about killing Symbian and MeeGo until they had a WP lineup launched. More responsibly he should have kept Symbian and MeeGo and licensed Android too.

I mean the whole argument is that Nokia were good at hardware not software so why go the unilateral exclusivity route? You only go with a single OS if you think it's the best and you own it outright. If you're expertise is the best hardware than you sell the most by having it work with the most software.

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

It's hilarious as everyone here assumes once they got the news that everybody got the news. Sorry to break it to you, but you are the freak Nokia doesn't give a **** about. Yes you knowledgable person consider yourself a freak. You have close to zero impact on Nokia sales. If not zero in fact. Good luck with that and such reasoning

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

Dude, step away from your keyboard, you don't know what the f*ck you're talking about.

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

IMO WP is hell of a lot more suited for the general public than anything Nokia has managed to produce. Symbian Belle is also hell of a lot better than Maemo in that respect.

The N800 is a nice idea, but a poorly executed one. The iPod of the same time was better in almost all respects important for the general public.

Nokia/MS can still make WP competitive, the battle is not lost, but time is running out, and they are trying to sell Lumias as if they could be compared head to head with iPhone and Androids. They have lost focus - again. The focus should solely be to make WP competitive, and this should be done by flooding the market with cheap Lumias, not premium priced Lumias. The L800 is nice, but the value in the hand of mr general public is much lower than a similarly priced Android. The reason for this discrepancy in value is not that WP is a poor OS, or that "people hate MS". The reason is lack of apps - mainly, expensive apps secondly, and the spec-focus on high end Androids (multiple cores, huuuge AMOLED displays etc) together with the "ROM-cult" that has grown around Android. One more thing is starting to rise it's head, updates to WP8. All the Lumias could be outdated within a few months.

Everybody hates MS. Right? Wrong!!! People dislike MS (Windows on PC) because of all the idiosyncrasies and troubles, but ultimately Windows is the OS that is/was perceived as the one that added most value - by far, and it still is. Everybody loves to hate MS, is more correct. The exact same thing can be said about Android today. Everybody loves hating Android because it is nothing but a piece of Google spy ware directly connected to everything you do. Ultimately though, Android injects every phone with Value that people know to appreciate more than they dislike Google.

I have lived long enough to see that marketing and fashion only goes so far. To be a success a device has to add value. Value means different things to different people. The very basic is a fluent and smooth OS, without that there is no chance, and of course the phone basics has to be there. Then, in general, value comes in four chunks: Apps, specs, updates and looks/design.

For instance, comparing the similarly prices L800 and a SGSII. The SGSII lacks somewhat in looks/design but soars in apps, specs and updates (ICS and tons of "ROMs" from devs). The L800 scores in looks/design and that's it. That's the cold hard truth, for every L800 sold, at least 10 SGSII are sold (probably many more). The only way for the L800 to be competitive is to cut the price because the SGSII adds much more value. On top of that apps are more expensive on WP.

Nokia/MS could already be going strong with WP/Lumia, but they lost focus. The L800 could be a best seller if the price was in accordance with the relatively low added value of the device. That would make the ball rolling regarding apps, which in turn would add value etc etc. Instead they lost the entire European market. In the US, the L900 is priced right, but it could be too little too late.

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

You're so wrong you're raging hard wrong, Specc. :) The N800 was a good idea that could have been executed better, but it was still executed pretty well for its time--and even in comparison to anything Windows Mobile related, it was BOTH suited better *AND* selling better at the time. Nokia had POTENTIAL with Maemo at the time and then decided to suddenly shift gears and hop up and down and go, 'OOH! OOH! We can be like iPhone too! LOOK! It's a phone!' instead of concentrating on making a better Maemo experience. But NOTHING on the Windows side EVER came close to being good enough for the general public. Microsoft has been at the tablet form factor for WELL OVER 10 years (15?) and STILL failing miserably. :)

heheh.. Windows Mobile 2012 is still Windows Mobile CE 1999 for all it matters. :)

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

And we have a winner for:

Dumbest Comparison of the Week

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

Just a track record on my impact on Nokia sales for the past 3 years (and they used to get more recommendations from me prior to that):

I bought:

- Two N900s,
- One white N9
- One black 16GB N9 (as a gift)
- One E7 (as a gift)

All of them within months of their release while their ASP was quite high, if not the highest in the recent Nokia history. Further, because of my suggestions to friends & family and direct influence, Nokia got the following sales:

- One C7
- Two E7s
- Two N8s
- One N9
- Four N900s

Granted, Samsung also sold three SGS2s and Apple sold two iPhone 4, one iPad 2 and one iPad 3 due to my suggestions, but Nokia did overwhelmingly better. They lost a couple of Lumia sales along the line, tho, but I really cannot recommend WP7 to anyone (I have an Omnia 7 and I did spend a great deal of time trying to like the WP7 with no success) - people that I would deem the suitable demographics for the WP7 are way better off with the iPhone. Way better off!

Yes, I'm just one person and in the grand scheme of things those sales are truly insignificant, but how many 'tech heads' out there you think there are whom get asked on a regular basis what to buy by their less techy friends & family? And that is not to include my voluntary advocating over the interwebs that might or might influence sales as well. You really think that people like us don't matter for the total sales in the end?

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

wp7 handsets have always been dirt cheap, even before the android dual core onslaught. Nice wp7 hardware existed before (omnia 7).

i wonder why people don't buy it then. I am not saying wp7 is a bad OS, but as the average guy who goes to the store I wouldn't buy a wp7 handset because its so different from what people are used to. Where's the app grid? Whats with all the huge fonts? Where are the homescreens? Widgets? No tabs? Side scrolling instead of drill-down etc..

Even Meego feels more familiar. In addition wp7 is not for the hardcore users out there, it doesn't display enough information (see arstechnica critique), and the multitasking is just too bad for that. Apart from the missing apps of course.

That said, I'm sure those who actually buy it are perfectly satisfied.

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

You talk like you are sitting at the Nokia Board of Directors: Detached from what's going on in the real world. We are Nokia and we are the best because we are Nokia and we are best because.... Please tell the rest of the board that Nokia has to wake up, focus and deliver.

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

The N800 is cluncketiclunk regarding the UI. The N9 is actually nice (except the lagging and poor to no customization possibilities). As a tablet Swipe would work much better than the N800. That is not the problem. The problem is the N9 is not competitive against the Androids or iPhones. It is not even competitive against Symbian Belle. Belle is good, relatively speaking, and the N8 (a two year old phone) is outselling the N9, and so does the E6. You can say that people don't want WP (Lumia), but there is one thing they don't want more, and that's the N9.

Windows CE has never been a complete OS out of the box. It has been a set of libraries and source for anyone to build a OS to their likings. As such it has been extremely popular for all sorts of devices, GPS in particular. There still is very few if any "better" alternative out there for screen-centric devices. Android would probably? work, except it would suck the batteries dry within minutes.

WP is built on a solid core, that's for sure, and it can be seen from the smoothness of the UI. If (correction - when) the prices of Lumia 800/900 come down, I will probably get one. Right now I see no value there for me.

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

http://pleco.org/heh/facepalm-galactus.jpg

Those were a LOT of words for something that made very little sense in this conversation. As I pointed out, if they had evolved from the N800 and concentrated on the Maemo operating system, they could have evolved this much farther along than even the N9 right now--BY NOW.

Man--you deserve a second one for just how bad you failed to debate a clear thread of conversation:

http://pleco.org/heh/palmface-jesus.jpg

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

seriously is people so unhappy as we in this forum? Yes I know americans dont like nokia. But they never has anyway.

but my point is why o earth is this man still CEO if most people is unhappy. Are stockholders totally blind? I am sure this man will be reselected :(

btw. specc about no one want n9: get this into your brain because this has been said before: the reason only geeks buy n9 is because elop killed it before realease. I am sure it could have sold out wp if it had got a chance!! Actually the device has improved alot since release even with low resources behind it.

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

I guess he is still CEO because the rest of the company is not US style (yet). In that case he would have been out by June or July. Like Leo Apotheker with HP - making dumb announcements got him out pretty fast. Nokia still thinks, that a transition needs time and probably loss, believing Elop is right. So they stick to him for some time longer.

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

Good point, word of mouth marketing does go a long way. Though Nokia's competitors might have worked on that (since over a year those Elop threads do not want to die and by complaining about Nokia's CEO decisions, hope not as vocally as is going on here, womm for Nokia sort of loses credibility)

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

LMAO!
Seriously?
Nokia abandons all current products, lays off thousands and announces they will use MS exclusively and you don't think that was news anyone but techies heard about? I own one business in the US and two in China and my employees on both continents sure heard about it. It made all the Chinese & US news outlets...ostrich much?

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

I thought they already did that. I have a Lumia 800 in my hand as a result. It's a very nice device. And although it doesn't have a front facing camera, it looks and feels better than an iPod and an iPhone, and it's nothing like an n800. Did Nokia do something wrong? If so, is there anything else you would like me to tell the board? But I warn you, they have a habit of not listening to me.

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

He is spot on

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

2011 Q1: + 439 million Euros - Announces end of Symbian and Meego WP deal
2011 Q2: - 487 million Euros - only 2nd loss-making quarter in 19 years
2011 Q3: - 151 million Euros (thanks for the cash Microsoft)
2011 Q4: - 755 Million Euros

954 Million Euro loss on 2011

2012 Q1: - 1.3 BILLION loss

Yep. Things are starting to turn. Pretty soon even Sony will be jealous.

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

Outsourcing it as much as I disagree could under some circumstances be a good idea short term. But outsourcing it to microsoft is pure suicide because as we all know every mobile OS they have maid is an utter failure

Re: Nokia on the brink of failure
 

q1 loss 1.3 billion? No problem, elop soon abandons s40 and meltemi to and fire the team behind it :(