Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Why not? I'm probably weird, but I would like to see vendors trying to "differentiate" and compete less on the task switcher or having the absolute lowest price and more on areas that matter like hardware specs and features, build quality, after-sales support, and yes, openness and collaboration.

On the PC world everyone can grab exactly the same version of Windows (or Ubuntu, whatever) and slap it on devices, and yet the buyers still can make perfectly rational and intelligent choices and the makers of the cheapest models aren't the market leaders. Why are "mobile" customers automatically treated like idiots?

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Do you see Canonical or Microsoft producing hardware (successfully)? I don't. They produce software for OEMs to install. Jolla is seemingly intending on being both a software company and an OEM. And that's why OEMs don't need to differentiate on "task switchers" - they don't work on them at all, for the most part. They take software that someone else has written, put it on their own hardware, optionally with some of what they consider "value added extras" (mostly crapware), and sell it off.

But you're quite correct that it would be great to have a collaborative environment where everyone is working on the same great stuff, but reality says that probably won't happen. Why should another OEM pay for software people, when they can take what (say) Jolla produce, slap it on the same hardware, and sell it cheaper - or offer other services, better support/warranty conditions etc - due to a lower cost as a result of not having to pay those software people?

Having licence (or branding) conditions that *force* that collaboration is more or less precisely what I'm talking about: offer it CC-BY-NC for everyone in the hobbyist market to do what they like with, throw it on random pieces of hardware, do cool stuff. Let companies talk together, make a licensing deal that says they either pay for the right to use it, or contribute efforts.

From the limited information I know about the situation in Android-land, this isn't entirely different from having to get certified, and not being able to use the market/other Google apps if you don't.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

How many of the Android or iPhone users know what CPU their running? or GPU? majority i would guess 80% won't have a clue as all they want is a phone or a phone they bought because of hype.

There is obviously many ways you can tackle this, people who will buy Jolla's phone will most likely be tech savvy

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Really can they? There is only one company on the PC market and they feed the HW manufactors to use theyr OS. Its all about money. Actually where treated as idiots on the PC markets too.

A small company like Jolla has only slighest chance to compete on the market if they make it "as open as possible" but still make the "hard job" closed so no competitor do copy theyr work and make it new HW for half of the price.

We have to accept that stuff is not fully open. But what I think they can do for the community is:

• fix stuff that the community expect to be integrated in the closed componets.

• listen when people ask for bugs to get fixed in closed drivers etc...

• They can also make alot more API semipublic via dbus calls/events.
  
  Example is the camera on N9. Where I want an public API to take a photo instead of tweak my cambutton app to "fake a button press".

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

i agree am all for optimised applications, i pretty much dont want the multitasking comprimised. From what ive used in the nemo mobile edition everything seems to be decent, battery life and all

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

the 80% get it because it simply works, they dont care what the cpu or gpu is doing and may even give a blank expression when you ask them about the gpu

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Android developers (and apps) already know, if they want to run in the backgroud, they need to implement a service thread. Multitasking works fine where it is needed.

If when porting desktop applications to Android (or to Tizen, JollaMeego), and if it would support for example Qt/C++, multitasking, the OS could by default forbid running on the background. There could be a special dbus-command to system dbus, which would enable application to run also in a background. Also there could be then development option to allow all permissive background processing for all non-android apps.

If a developer porting a desktop application would support that dbus-command, (s)he should follow some guidelines which are good to have if an app is running on a mobile device in a background. Lazy developers would not use this dbus-trick especially when porting, but yet it then wouldn't mind the normal user which do not allow all permissive background processing.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Give me root access, a terminal, full multitasking and a handful of expert users that compile stuff to it. Then I can run things like Pidgin and not have it swapped out after five minutes like everything on my Galaxy Tab. Give me better contact/IM integration than Android, which the N900 already had. Those things alone will be a powertool. Add stuff like excellent DLNA support, and I'll never regret not having Google Market/Play. Top it off with the ability to hook up a DVD as a share, and play my legally bought movies unripped like I can on an Ubuntu laptop, and I can't think of more to ask for.

Oh well, I bet Flash is always going to be an issue.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

16 pages of ???, with reggie and all Rock n Roll stars posting... I do not see any plan.

Would it be nice to strike a relationship with them and see whether we can get a little more favorible treatment than just the general public, like, 5-steps plan (anybody remember that from Nokia?), product pre-release, early adopter plan, or even beta test? WHERE IS OUR COUNCIL? Should we wake them up and ...

BTW, if the council is going to hold any meeting or formulate some plan sort of... please start a thread with a purpose title (I for one will not browse through 16 pages X 40 posts/page ,ie, 600+), so that everybody can get excited about.

bun

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

So does Mer ;-)

That's kind of the point, the software is a commodity. Even on the mobile side, Android made it happen (and MeeGo might've as well under better conditions). The source of osso-backup (to pick a recent example) isn't a valuable trade secret and treating it as such just gets in the way.

Having those software people gives certain advantages, such as reputation, being able to support the software better, having advance knowledge and perhaps even influence on development roadmaps, etc. RedHat is doing better than ever despite their bits being also available from Oracle or CentOS.

Essentially that's what the various Qt licencing options offer :-)

Not my experience. I can go out today and chose a PC from literally hundreds of vendors, in all sorts of form factors, with all sorts of specs, peripherals etc (some even tailor-made), and run whichever OS I want on it.

People usually argued that on "embedded" hardware that's not possible, but in a time when almost all HW is ARM and almost every OSs is Linux is that still the case? Why can't I buy a device that can run Android, and MeeGo, and Tizen, etc if the hardware adaptation is for the most part common?

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

That's arguable. Companies which are involved in PlasmaActive see no problems in making a fully open UI. Closing stuff is not the only way to be successful.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Canonical and Microsoft don't do that, but Apple and Google do.

There are plenty of pitfalls here (pricing, distribution, patents???), but I'd argue the basic strategy, vague as it is thus far, seems sound.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Four words: one click purchase patent.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Really? Even if you want OSX?

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

From a commercial perspective, where a new or novel idea provides a level of differentiation that defines potential for success, I can understand, and even support (The FOSS angel sitting on my other shoulder is cursing at me atm) the decision to have some closed components in a "package" that includes hardware, drivers, os and ui.
The level of support through bug reporting and the speed at which fixes are pushed, will determine how much of a problem they present to an end user (not talking devs here).
For many here, the biggest gripe about the closed components with Fremantle, related more to the delay in bugfixing (let alone all the WONTFIXes) than the challenges these components presented when devloping via the sdk.
Jolla, to all extents will aim to release a device that is as open as possible, while still protecting any IP relating to aspects of 3rd party hardware and their own IP that they see as being marketable/profitable from a commercial perspective.
This model is not really any different from that used by Nokia on the N900 or N9 and it certainly didn't stop me from lining up and buying either of these when they were released, not for what they couldn't do, or didn't have, but for what they represented and it won't stop me from buying a device that Jolla releases if it is available in my market.
It certainly represents a whole lot more than what exists on the market right now.
I certainly like the idea of a visual alert notifying of cpu/memory hogging processes. With the N9 as a reference,the app in question could glow or have a red tint in the running apps screen. Having a "top/htop" balloon over the individual open apps in the running apps screen would be good, adding a "nice" button to click on when long pressing each app would be good too.
This is the sort of thing that could be enabled in a "developer mode", leaving a minimalist view for the average user and yet still being available for power users.
Given how the swipe UI is so intuitive, I look forward to what the Jolla team can deliver, whether it's a completely different UI or just building on the concept.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Patents are such a mess - you never know what kind of ridiculously simple thing can be patented. So when you create something new - just ignore all this nonsense. Don't let your creativity be limited by this idiocy. Debian patents FAQ even recommends not to research any existing patents.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Personally I don't care that much if something is open or closed as long as it works as expected. Jolla wants to be a comercially successful company so they can't rely on thousand different opinions, whishes and desires on how things should look and work. That just wouldn't work.
So if the tipical lifespan of a device is 2 years then the company should properly support it for those 2 years and not put "won't fix" next to the multiple times reported bug. Or if some feature is missing then the company should implement that in its own (open or closed) already existing program. I don't see the point in that some community members spend weeks or months in recreating music player just to add equilizer if the company can do that much faster.
There should be an open and honest communication channel between community and company, a place where we can ask a question and get an answer on why something can or can't happen.

But I do agree that a device should belong to the user as much as possible.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

There is a Ted Talk on "how I beat a patent troll."
There has to be some judge somewhere that understands that the rate of acceleration of technology leaps causes old lame patents nowadays to seem relevant even though they are not.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...art-attack.jpg

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I don't get why anyone would want that personally, but sure, see osx86project.org.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I haven't read that FAQ, but I can bet that the reasoning behind that is the same as the reason that I've heard around many times before: if you do patent research, and create something which infringes on a patent somehow, you're now wilfully infringing on it, which means you're now liable for a whole lot more damages than before.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Mer isn't exactly doing that much software development, compared with integration of existing software (as is typical in a distro). There is some of it, to be sure, in the forms of process & integration tools, but stuff like that, you're going to need specialised hackers to be able to use anyway, so that will most likely involve contribution.

Note that I never said:
- that it should necessarily be closed source
- that everything vaguely UI related should be treated in this fashion

I don't agree with either of those points at all. They impede the community and small scale hackers for no real "gain". I completely agree that it gets in the way.

The exact examples I mentioned were related to artwork and branding, etc - and to repeat exactly what I was trying to say: they should be open source, but licensed under a somewhat restrictive licence like creative commons non-commercial, meaning that they can be reused to the ends of time by community/hackers playing around in a garage, but they can't be used in a commercial way without an alternative licensing agreement being in place ensuring that leeching isn't a feasible business model.

You're more or less right. It shouldn't surprise you that I support this model of open source releasing combined with commercial "support"/negotiation to provide a way to earn money on top of it in order to further development.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

This is, I think, one of the important roadblocks to solve. MeeGo never figured it out: the UI design specifications were always closed, despite efforts to open them, the roadmap process into making changes to them always seemed to hit a completely dead end in bugzilla. In practice, you could fix bugs, but if you had any sort of an itch to scratch in UI, you hit a wall.

Assuming that there will be some form of OSS UI, how is that going to be handled with a seperate "handset" project? Is a company expected to pick those pieces up, branch them to do things the way they want with their designs, and release them, and hope the community picks the useful bits back?

That model strikes me as wasteful, but I really do wonder how else to get around the "UI designer says no" approach that stifles community innovation and growth so often.

(And no, I don't think "add a configuration option" solves that problem. You'd just end up with many, many options, increasing test/bloat weight as usual.)

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I simply don't care if the UI is closed, I can replace it with another one (e.g. xterm :p). Now, if the drivers are closed, I have no way to install a newer kernel, which in turns will preclude me from installing newer applications (which sadly will require the forever-broken-fad-of-the-day-only-available-with-the-bleeding-edge-kernel).

Why should it be? I have 10 years old PCs still doing their duty, why should I replace a mobile device many times more powerful than that in 2 years?
Oh, I see, the closed drivers force me to buy the new! improved! one, since there's no way to update the old one.
Thanks, but no thanks, I won't buy into a business model that only tries to screw the customer.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Don't mix PC industry with mobile industry. It's not the same, not even close. The way things are marketed and distributed are very different. I don't thik that anyone here uses 10 years old mobile.
And for the rest, thats why I said that it all depends on how the company is willing to treat there own products and there own customers. It's up to them to decide if the want "I'll screw U once" approach or if they want customers that will come for more.
And I sad 2 years because it's the most common contract length and then everybody signs a new one and buy a new phone. And 2 years of propper support would be something that we still haven't seen from any manufacturer (well, maybe Apple. I don't know exactly what was the latest update original iPhone got and how many of "new" features it got with it). Every other simply pretends that the cetrain device never existed after 6 months or so. Also it's worth noticing that carriers are also guilty for that, maybe even more than manufacturers but still..........I was screwed with P990, then with satio, then with N900.......... So yes, if I get a propper support for only 2 years I'm all in.

It's impossible to have a fully open OS and to be a manufacturer at the same time and to be something on the market. Sooner or later someone will just take that and put it on some cheeper HW and that's the end.
OK, google created "open" OS but the reason for that is not to please users or manufactures but as a tool for selling adds through their services. I'm not interested in that. And I'm also not interested in gazzilion cheep craplets and mobiles from this year which are inferior to my N900 but they does exist because they can use google's OS for free.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I think BasysKom and Jolla should cooperate and create the contacts and chatintegration on the new mobile instead of reinvent the wheel a third time...

Basyscom's peregrine is opensource and the app can be found on nemomobile.

http://wiki.peregrine-communicator.o...e+Contact+List

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

why is there a MeeGo logo at the bottom? in which meego version has this been used before?

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Perhaps I'm misreading your statement, but Peregrine was released for MeeGo quite a while back store.ovi.com link...

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Yeah sorry i just got confused :D

All i want is Jolla to work together with community allow opinions to matter. And accept out improved code or mods.

This kind of collaboration would be a winner!!!

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Are you going to use this?
http://batmax.com/products-mobile.php

How it works
http://batmax.com/technology-overview.php

Mobile burn review
http://www.mobileburn.com/review.jsp?Id=445

edit: Well maybe this is questionable
Anyone want to test it out?

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

That looks... Very... errr? When will these be availble from QVC?

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Manufacturer has to work on hardware, providing tools to build OSes for it (i.e. either specs/open drivers, or binary drivers if specs are closed). Coupling of OS and hardware manufacturing into one inseparable mix is the worst thing in the mobile industry.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

apply seems to have quite a hard time with it, making all the profit and what not.

It all depends, there is bad and good points about it. If you do it right you'll have much me benefits than drawbacks

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

IMO, wrong. iOS will forever stay on iToy. WP is like yeti, supposedly it exist but nobody has seen one yet. BB is on deathbed also. And all we have is android. Android on motorola, LG, Samsung, HTC, Huawei, ZTE, Pantech, SONY, Alcatel, Sharp, Panasonic, Kyocera.................And usage experince is almost the same on any of them. Apart from homescreen and some other minor cosmetic difference everything else is the same. A long time ago there was a huge difference between using NOKIA, Siemens, Ericsson, Motorola.......... Devices were far more simpler but yet, the difference between them was far greter than it is today.

OS is basically the only thing that can make a difference. HW is pretty much the same because none of them actually makes all components in order to create something really different. They all buy components that are available on market. And if you don't control the OS than you are just OEM, nothing more. And back to the begining then. In theory I can choose between 10 different superuberturbocool state of the art devices. In reality I'm stuck with one and only thing in 10 different boxes.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Sure, closed drivers are what's stopping Chinese manufacturers to do just that....Oh, wait..

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Any worse than Nokia?
I hope not, if only for the potential that QNX will bring to an increase in Qt development.
The general public will never get a true picture from Nokia, regarding the success of the N9 in termsof numbers sold.
I would put money on the fact that the team at Jolla know, and the decision to continue development of a MeeGo/Mer based device, is based in part, on expected sales, driven by the knowledge of just how successful the N9 was (even from the limited markets in which it was sold) and given the great reviews it received on release.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

BTW, I'd like to point out that there have been cheap Asian Maemo-like devices, eg from SmartDevices or Optima. Guess what, the world didn't end. Some of them even gave some support to Mer.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

So, what's bad about it? Let them compete on better hardware, like it happens on the desktop. Nvidia competes on GPUs. Do they need to make OSes for that? Stupid idea. All they need is to make high quality hardware and to publish drivers for all potential users of their hw (i.e. OSes). Mobile scene is sick in comparison. Rarely you have a GPU or any other component with drivers for all OSes. In most cases because of this coupling all you get are drivers for 1 OS. That's why porting to all these devices is a horribly hard effort. This coupling needs to be broken, so OS creators could start competing on merit of their OS, and not on the choice "where it can run". Hardware vendors should compete on the quality and functionality of their hardware.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Sometimes even less than that...

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

https://twitter.com/JollaMobile/stat...30680674889728

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Sales deal on what? They didn't even announce any products. I'm not really getting these kind of news.