Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Really? I wouldn't turn down a Medfield-based phone beforehand. See http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/06/l...800-benchmark/ And I wonder if this thing is running in pure native x86, or with (some) emulated ARM libs, so it might just get better.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

But I'd love Intel's support behind MeeGo.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I was skeptical about X86 originally when MeeGo was Nokia, it made sense in the whole ecosystem sense to have it all on ARM.
Now as Jolla is at it's own it could get that special vibe from using X86.


it looks like Jolla's site would be www.jollamobile.org.
http://nokiagadgets.com/2012/07/15/l...-for-jolla-oy/

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Haven't I already seen this movie?

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I think that's a great idea, what if you just a phone that works? no mess no fuss buy it from any phone shop.
And a different version for those who like to play with everything that's inside

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Intel's support is the kiss of death. I've seen so much interesting stuff with Intel's backing. Nothing ever comes from it and lives. Most likely it'll warp into some new v.0.5 with a new partner.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

and i love how their replying to all twitter questions via N9 :D

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I'm guessing that the reason for it is because carriers are going to require it. Fact is, many want to have the freedom to modify phones to meet their requirements and lock out the average user from mucking with it. I didn't expect that to change with Jolla.

I expect that they will make unlocked phones available, just like most GSM phone makers do.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I don't think there's any question about that. Who other than Apple doesn't have it's phones available unlocked globally?
Unlocked market is way too big in Europe and Asia to be left out, especially for company like Jolla that simply wont be getting wide operator support.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose. What a shame :-(

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I would agree with this and it would make sense to offer the carriers the option of a closed mobile OS too. They do like to add there own bloatware and are also aware of how much money can be made from Advertising as demonstrated by Google with Android too.

One of the problems the carriers have with Android is that whilst it is open enough for them to re-skin, they see very little in term of advertising revenue from there handsets because the money is going to Google. With a closed Jolla device they can reap the benefits of controlled mobile advertisements too knowing that the consumer will not be able to wipe the OS with a vanilla image.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

"Locking" can mean many things. Starting from limiting the choice of the network provider, and ending with signed kernel limitations and locked bootloader. What we are concerned with is the later. I.e. will there be a way to unlock those on the device which is "regular" or one will have to use special developer device for that?

Simple use case where it might matter. Imagine someone creates a kernel module for supporting certain scenario (like USB host mode or what not). Open mode / device allows installing such module. Will the user of the "closed" mode able to unlock the device and use it too, or such user will be forced to buy another device to use it? That's the main point IMO, and concerns about fragmenting the user base.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Nokia somehow switched main actors mid-movie like the mother from Dirty Dancing and hoped nobody noticed.

Intel has money and a need to do something mobile where their chipsets are used. Why not double down with Tizen and MeeGo/Jolla? More possible chipsets for them to sell in an area they're lacking sales.

Just a thought.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Thats only marketing camapign. X86 OLD architecture. I dont like it. Definitivly not on a smartphone.

If I could, I would replace my laptop with ARM too.

I dont want to have a FAN because the CPU getting too hot.

Btw this discussion about Medfield has going on for YEARS no but nothing happens:

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/int...arm,16093.html

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

We... actually agree. I remember when Intel put their support behind Shockwave3D with Macromedia back in 1999/2000. It died off, they never did more with it (Intel).

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I'm in full disagreement with you on this. I think the dual device release model is the ideal way to do it with an open source OS if you want to compete with the big guys that can throw paid manpower at their OS development.
I would look at it as a business expense and a model which I think others will try to copy in the future. Compare giving a device away to a dev who is very happy to have it and will contribute to fixing bugs to paying someone a wage and all the other expenses that go with it.
Maybe the correct ratio of dev device to mass market device is 1/3.
I would think a dev device can serve as a bridge device between your current device and your next 2 devices. It could be an expensive device with significantly more power and equipment than the current device but able to emulate it and somewhere close to the same power and equipment as your next 2 devices.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Same here.

And I would also love if Intel finally had some chips suitable for phones and gave ARM some real competion.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Again, my own personal thoughts:

What are people's thoughts on being able to switch to a R&D mode where warranty is void, but you can flash kernel, own rootfs, etc?

I think there needs to be a balance between one app being able to flash it's own kernel, rootkit your entire system and software freedom somehow.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Yes. The system needs to be flexible, but secure at the same time. Some explicit switch is OK, if user has a secure way of switching it (i.e. that malware won't be able to fake that switch).

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Just because the CPU in your laptop is crap, doesn't mean they all have to be.
Take a look at the Green 500 list. Power generally rules across the board, but Intel has several high-ranking entries as well. ARM has, well, not one.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

i so am ready for some kind of teaser from jolla.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I don't know... Coming from a PC background, I'd find it odd if my laptop warranty was void from updating the OS kernel...

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

It shouldn't be an "R&D" mode, and it shouldn't be used to try to suppress consumer rights (which - IANAL - might even be illegal in many places). The default position on any computer should be that the owner has full control, period.

How would you like it if your laptop died and the manufacturer refused to honour the warranty because you installed Mer on it?

Yes, it's a hostile world out there. No, knee-jerk reactions like locked bootloaders aren't appropriate.

In a world where one of the most locked down devices in the world can be rooted simply by visiting an appropriately crafted web page, do we really think something like an "R&D mode" is going to make any difference?

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

i just wonder why NONE of those big companys has released any consumer mobiledevices with x86 if intel is soo good?

seriously if jolla will use intel I jus take theyr device as an device marketed for early adaptors and NOT consumer device because theyr cpu has not been heavily tested.

what jolla should use is a hw and architecture they have been tested for long OMAP that is...

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Moreover, that term probably is void itself if brought to justice. It's little more than a paper tiger. Yeah, you *can* deliberately ruin hardware by software, but how is that different from ruining the hardware by throwing it on the floor?

Just make sure the bootloader can't be damaged or overwritten, i.e. put the bootloader in ROM. That way you can can always flash the stock firmware, restoring your phone. They did it back in 1995 on mainboards, it worked just fine then (and saved my ***), so why can't it now?

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Bootloader in ROM is bad for usability, since you can't install any custom OS, can't boot from external storage and etc.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

We don't but I'd guess that the corporations behind media content and paid applications do and maybe some of the more average users as well.

I'd be perfectly happy with a switch to void the warranty and enable platform hacker mode. Just like for example how archos does it - they offer the tools for you to enable booting your own stuff on their devices but using those will watermark the device and effectively void the warranty (and remove the ability to play drm'd media). Anyway, the end-game is that I'm able to hack on it and they don't need to care if I manage to break it while hacking. win - win.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Maybe the solution from the WeTab feaseable:
http://wetab.mobi/en/developers/
Search for "HowTo – Get Root Access on WeTab OS".

Even Android devices can be returned to non-Jailbreak-mode.

Their solution is obviously a compromise:
- alllow everybody to become root - this is everything a developer dreams for. This is the most cheap way to spread developers devices to everyone interested in
- do not restrict hardware support at all (see below)
- restrict software support to those devices, that have not openend dev mode (root mode)

There are (at least) two risks:
1) Devs brick the device (accidentally or on purpose) and manage to return them to the manufacturer without having to pay a single penny. This would be the case, if the device is bricked so hardely, that it would be impossible or too expensive to find out, why the device is bricked.
2) Devs destroy the hardware with their developed software (e.g. overclocking)

The first could be solved by reanimating the device by reflashing the device as it has been done when it was produced (using JTAG, spelling casts, praying...). It would be thinkable to ask for a small obulus for such a service. This would never cover the expenses for the manufacturer, but at least it would recover some of it.

The latter has to be evaluated more closely: Is it more cost effective to just exchange this device at no charge or to evaluate the reason for the defect? That depends on how often will (defective) software actually kill the hardware? Or maybe it is even cost effective to kill 5 devices, until the darn clocking registers in the bootloader have the correct values :-)

This i doubt. I see this more in black or white. Eighter open the device (no risk - no fun) or use the "ecosystem" and pay for your needs to someone. I do not belive, that the no-risk-no-fun-people are that many, that it would be efficient to differenciate rules in applications or the OS itself to allow or forbid actions regarding the kernel or single apps or boot-skripts.

Please note, that this is IMHO :-)
@Sksteeps: Thanks for such inspiring questions. Mer will undoubtably benefit from all of the discussion!

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I would gladly accept a void warranty if I wanted to overclock but I'm sorry I don't find losing the warranty acceptable because I wanted to install mt-toggles, or mobile hotspot.

Of course there should be a balance between security and freedom, (see here) but a switch like the one on the N9 and Android (allow installations from external sources) is enough. Also, although a rootkit is a serious threat we're not running a server in our pockets, and a random app without root privileges is just as harmful. An evil app doesn't need root to send my pivate data to the cloud, doesn't need root to send billable sms to premium numbers, doesn't need root to spam my contacts with ads, wipe my data, record my conversations, broadcast my position, take photos of me in the toilet.

So for me a locked kernel is just a lame excuse for security where there is none. Just make the cpu non-overclockable, or trip a one way switch to void warranty when overclocked. Even that could be contained (allow other components repair even if cpu is overclocked), but I know I'm asking too much.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Well, if you think that IBM, Cray, Fujitsu etc are being silly making supercomputers and should start making phones instead, feel free to suggest it to them ;-)

The point is that there's nothing inherent in the ARM ISA that makes for better energy efficiency compared to any other architecture (or if there is, all implementations so far have been incredibly bad and wasted that advantage).

Your OMAP-based handheld may last longer than your Atom netbook, sure, but that's because the rest of the system/SoC is designed to conserve energy well, particularly when idle. A PC is a terribly wasteful thing because it has to comply with 30+-year old design decisions in order to run software that expects them. An x86 (or even better, x86_64 or x86_32) system does not have to be a PC however. Remember the original Nokia communicators for example? i386s.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I totally agree with the need to find balance.

options for consideration could be:

Dev devices that are handed out/awarded via a program (similar to the n9/n950 programs). open/unlocked with standard dev device exclusions and limited warranty

Standard consumer device, where purchased via a retailer or through an online service, "locked" .

Opening up "R&D" mode done via an online registration and unlock code linked to the IMEI, which includes a consent to waive SOME warranty aspects where damage occurs resulting from hardware overclocking or hacking to make use of/or implement tweaks or mods not yet approved in upstream base code?

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Only if the community was willing and capable of helping me whenever I got stuck.

Case in point. I have a Motorola Xoom. I lurk over at XDA a lot and once I got sorta in a sticking point with a certain flash. I got hit up behind the scenes by one of the main ROM builders, we worked it out and apparently I found a nasty pitfall that could have hit others. He acknowledged that, walked me through it - he hit it once himself, thought it was a one-off - and they were able to fix that for later builds.

That level of community support would have to exist for me to accept that. But in the end, yes. I'd accept it.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

No, this is wrong. There should be a free choice what device to get. Both devices need to be purchasable. Censored distribution of N950 was a bad thing. Instead Nokia had to just sell them, but they didn't because of general sabotage and shift to MS. There is no need for any limiting of distribution.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I will note that they did allow purchases, but only from "registered developers" who were accepted into a special program.

Still, it didn't do much to cultivate any community, though I suppose that was a moot effort due to the changes already in play.

Whereas, such constraints would definitely cripple any real community from developing around this platform (permanently locked retail handsets / tightly limited distribution of "dev" handsets.)

The article stirred no confidence in me, though my cynicism regarding the entire space is in effect. I will gladly be proven wrong.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Guys whole Open Closed thing is just speculation at this point in time, we shouldn't take everything we reed on websites and true. As far as i know Jolla has not officially confirmed this!

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

The suspense is killing me.™ (not only in this case...)

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Well intel has a released their phone here in UK i'm just not sure how well it's doing

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I would change the color of the battery icon (green => discharging slowly, red, fast), depending on the discharge rate of the last 5 minutes, or depending on the average cpu of the last 5 minutes. If the phone is locked when the status comes to "fast discharging", I would vibrate or notify the user.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

The medfield chip is currently fully comparable in terms of price, power and consumtion to a mid-range+ arm chip (mid range in terms of power and price).
They need to up their game to provide high end chip for flagship devices, but as far as the "cpu power"/consumtion is concerned, they're finally fully competitive.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Perhaps I failed to communicate my intent. I most certainly don't want a dev only device or restriction on the capacity to develop, but I do think that there needs to be line drawn from a warranty perspective, with an acceptance that, by making a device completely "open" to hacking, a person can, by their own hand, be responsible for bricking it.

I was referring specifically to the application of warranty options, not suggesting that a fully open device be made available only through an award basis.

My suggestion for consideration was based around an acknowledgement that a device for a general consumer does not need to be fully "open" from a hacking perspective, but there needs to be some means by which a company can mitigate risk to itself when it comes managing warranty claims for devices damaged through hacking.
It is only fair to assume that Jolla (or any vendor for that matter) shouldn't have to wear the cost of replacing a device that was overclocked to a point of combustion, just because it could be, or because someone loaded a piece of home cooked code with a fatal typo...

If hardware protection can be built in, to ensure safety to the device, then this point becomes moot, as technically, there wouldn't be anything a reflash couldn't fix