YES. YES. Exactly what the community, no, the WORLD needs. Hit me up for one if the price gets a bit fair ;) also, it can be customized if it happens right? Much better than Moto X :D
Now in between Jolla and Neo900, but really leaning to Neo900 :D

Re: dreams, plans, future
 

My carrier contract will expire in November, i cut my SIM-card to fit in an Android phone.
So the 'need' for the N900 right now is low here.

Are you helped with having that N900 for software/hardware experiments?
Feel free to contact me.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

This sound amazing and great!

Count me in!

People should, however, start to get ready to pay far more than 200-400 €/£/$ for this and that is going to be problem. Hopefully we get enough people, but thats always the problem with "community openess", everyone wants it, but few are ready to make the initial sacrifice. Just think about This/Jolla/Ubuntu. Early adopters are always the most difficult to find, cos those are the ones paying most and usually here is where the whining starts.

But it is so GREAT to see people coming up with real plans for something like this, and this really seems like something that could go "alive" and reality.

I want to say THANK YOU for those planing this even this far. Count me in for something like 700-800€

Read through the whole topic, but just to make sure, all other HW possibilities/aspects of the N900 would stay the same, just motherboard/CPU/RAM getting an update?

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

This is very cool news, I had considered ordering a GTA04 for my old openmoko but the N900 form factor is so much better.
This effective phone community design has all of the features found in a N900 and adds the add-ons for the N9 including NFC, real working no-hack USB OTG, three axis magnetometer, air pressure altimeter, FM tx/rx, etc.
I suggest that a crypto signed ID be added to the board as the Chinese already make cheap N900 refurbs from repaired boards which sell as new but with no QC and a high failure rate. It would be nice to know that the QC is community/EU standard rather than roll the dice Chinese pirate(even if it is an open to copy design).
In this age of Snowden and Arab Spring we must consider what hardware including crypto coprocessors, mesh networking, and any other long range off network comm methods can be added at this critical stage in the project where the design can still be changed.
I think there is still time now to add a UHF/VHF transmitter preferably a software defined radio since there is more room on a N900 board. This feature is already implemented on the AndroidOS Earl backcountry tablet. http://www.meetearl.com/ This is key to communicating and networking in the absence of cellular telephone service or when used in a protest movement with a hostile telephony infrastructure. The UV-3R group is working on an open firmware so there are devs there who can help with the micro size SDR components and controls required. It would also bring in substantial interest and RF expertise from the amateur radio community as there is currently not yet a smart radio/phone (and only one junk VHF/UHF/GSM phone) even if they just want to flash it to Android. It would also enable receiving incoming pages from the existing pager network, an easy app could turn on the GSM chip and make a easy callback nearly as convenient as just taking a mobile call.
http://www.liorelazary.com/index.php...uv5r&Itemid=17
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UV-3R/message/8158
The SDR even if only tuned to FRS, PMR446, MURS is useful for walkie-talkie chat and sending environmental telemetry and GPS position between devices. If tuned to amateur radio bands the possibilities for packet radio become vast even including free access to the amateur radio satellite galaxy for those with a license.
Additionally if it can transmit on 122.5mhz AM(FM will work with mild distortion) it can communicate on the aircraft emergency band which is listened for even in the most remote areas by commercial aircraft with hundreds of km line-of-sight even if only as a beacon, when combined with a digital signal including GPS coordinates on 406mhz a global network of search and rescue satellites with parallel receivers and finely tuned DSPs are listening for distress signals and can have a rescue activated in around ten minutes, if properly formatted the SARSAT system will accept and activate rescue for unregistered EPIRB signals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPIRB
A software defined radio if given a properly formatted signal can also probably clone a SPOT communicator enabling satellite SMS type messaging with a cheap service plan http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...t+communicator

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

YES merging those communities , better late than never !

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Actually i could only spend around 350 bucks, but with time and in some months i think there will be 600-650 realistic for me!
Especially if there will be a good fm-transmitter included.
Thanks for this wonderful project, i hope everything will go well.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I voted 400 eur for now.

The thing is, this should be a real improvement, and I don't mean just as a whole. I mean, I wouldn't settle for a worse camera, or worse sound, or whatever, just to have double the ram and a few more(although really nice) candies here and there on top of our old OMAP3, since I already HAVE an N900. This all depends on whether you can find all replacement components, AND you can fit them on the board!

If THOSE requirements are met, well then, count me in 100%! And more money (just give me a few months, I already have a big trip planned before christmas). I mean it. The N900 has been the single best device I ever had, and an updated version would just be the icing on the cake. :D

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I would probably sell my Jolla phone to buy this instead if I could get it at EUR490.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

surely this initative is worth the effort ! But will it have the extra functionablites like infrared etc testpads for anteenas maybe . Extra hardware features with real world usage are necessary furthermore it will generate a lot more intrest among many maybe it will add some extra bucks but i woudnt like a dumb phone with open whatsapp and bla bla it should be a bit diffrent from the crowd. :) hats off for the efforts

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Wow!

Software changes must be considered. We should ensure Jolla compatibility (to be able to use Alien Dalvik) and Harmattan compatibility. MeeGo Touch has to work flawlessly (I have a semi-working build of 0.26). Maybe I'll be able to help a little in the future about the sw. Applauncherd can be modified to work with gtk+ and other types of sw too. I have a building, but not working 3.0.3 build. http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=85716 I rebuilt it against latest meegotouch and will check it as soon as my n900 gets usable again.

You should talk with atilla77 and inean to bring qtm and qt components.

Qt5 should be introduced. Can it be built with qt4support as it was with qt3support?
Gtk+ can be updated at least to latest 2.x

Maybe we can take advantage of this: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=89416

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

TMO is a great community .
This will be a truly open phone that I'll support it even if I'm still blank about how the phone and the OS will look like.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Do you mean only 512M memory / 1G storage? Why that?

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

That sounds great. Is OMAP4 at all possible? I've seen it mentioned next to 1000 orders at 490 euro, would closed components from Fremantle work on it (they can use a single core even if not supporting)? That definitely would be worth 700, not sure if doubling ram alone is (I'm assuming that the 1GB NAND would be for rootfs). Does the wifi card support injection? (probably worth opening a brainstorm thread about legal issues, filing down nokia logo while still shipping Fremantle might be tricky, the 'hacking versions of N900' were just a resale with software updates, here it will be a bit different, unless shipped with debian and flashing Fremantle is left for the end user)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

sorry this is almost off-topic here since the real porting should use a new thread, but until then I dump it here:
http://www.omappedia.com/wiki/Maemo_Getting_Started

thanks Carsten for pointing us at it! :-)
/jOERG (still trying to parse "not that i don't think porting fremantle anywhere isn't insane;...")

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

+1 on 800

Guest "Walter1950": 800EUR

(why don't you open an account? it's painless ;-> )
Thanks!
/j

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Voted and I`m definitely interested (it will be pleasure to test "new" platform at its birth).

Is it going to be DIY as follows:
1. Buy new motherboard
2. Open up N900, take out Nokia mobo, replace it with new one (everything fits, no drilling, soldering etc)
3. Ready
?

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

That's a possible alternative, though we plan to sell complete devices ready to use, as well. If you already have a N900 you want to butcher for recycling the case, screen, digitizer, auxiliary stuff like GSM antenna speaker etc pp, then you for sure will find a bare board to purchase, like it is for (FreeRunner)GTA04. Will save you roundabout 100EUR as well.

/j

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Can't we move to 1G RAM as on N9? desktop software needs a lot.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Out of curiosity, what is the plan for sourcing the N900 components? I guess places like ebay/gumtree would be options of course but prices do vary being auction sites. Or are there any stock piles that I am not aware of?

May be a Donation drive for anyone with "Retired" or broken n900s could help with the cause? It would help to minimise the overall cost if we could gather a parts pool. (I would be happy to donate my spare unit)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

[2013-08-26 13:33:42] <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: that's a silly poll
[2013-08-26 13:34:32] <kerio> because i'm willing to pay 500, but i'm even more willing to pay 300
[2013-08-26 13:50:02] <DocScrutinizer05> kerio: sorry, that's a silly comment since we are interested what's the maximum price customers are willing to pay
[2013-08-26 13:51:06] <DocScrutinizer05> I don't think anybody will refrain from buying when device gets cheaper than what s/he been willing to pay at maximum
[2013-08-26 13:53:29] <DocScrutinizer05> so we can start production when either (according to dos1's list which for Neo900 is 100EUR or more off) we have 100 users willing to pay 600 or more, or when we have 1000 users willing to pay 500 or more

Right now we have
06 users willing to pay 700+
07 users willing to pay 600+
21 users willing to pay 500+

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Depends on what SoC we can source. Not every valid combination of CPU and OneNAND PoP is readily available in low quantities. The higher the number of produced devices, the more likely we can source exactly the SoC we want to use. TI will not even pick up the phone when you call for quantities of 500 OMAP SoC, and with other suppliers it's not much different. So in the end you need to take what you can get.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

We don't know of secret stocks. So yes, in the end it's just ebay et al.
Sure we happily will collect donations of spare / defect N900, even parts. But till now most of the parts are still easily available on free market - which is where this project came from.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

fast board layout wish list
1-charging pads for attaching inductive or other chargers/power supplies without requiring the USB smart negotiatiation pins

2-super big USB port pads, through hole anchors, or drop in replaceabl USB similar to speakers or 3.5mm audio jack

3-extra USB ports on the board for future add ons, since you havde a SM assembly fab in .de add ons could be made later to solder down

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

full ack for 1, 2
a huge *maybe* for 3

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Can I ask, why the "low" specs?

If such a project is possible, can't something more modern be adopted?
Eg/ 1.5GHz Dualcore S4 PRO with Adreno 320 gpu
Eg/ 64bit 2.0GHz Quadcore A57-1.0GHz Quadcore A53 with Mali-T658 gpu

And if its not possible to stray too far from 1GHz Cortex A8 SoC's... can this be merit for a low cost NeoN900 ?

Cheers.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Lovely idea but for me it's too expensive for too little of a hardware upgrade (although I understand the problems in getting something better in such small amounts) but for 700 it's just a low benefit-cost ratio in my opinion. I'll still vote but for a more realistic amount I'm sure I'd be happy to pay without this initial euphoria letting me cloud my judgment.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

If you know about an PCB with this parametrs, with dimensions optimal for N900 case, and with as awesome community as Openmoko has, let us know. :P

However you can hope, that GTA05 will be N900 case compatible and with Octocore CPU and Nvidia shield GPU.
And with price under $1000.

#lexik

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

What about re-designing the BeagleBone Black into a functional mobile phone considering it's open-hardware and similair to OMAP(am3559). It's amazing how many OS's can be run. Adding peripherals wouldn't be that difficult as there's the great amount of I/O pins that can be used.

I have one and must say this is the only board that is fully open-source both hardware and software. The PCB design etc. are all hosted by Texas Instruments.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Very nice thread. I choose 500.....I hope this Neo will be nice looking as the n900.
what about external memory support? will it be the same as the n900 right?


ps. gotta change the avatar in neo900 very soon :D

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

There are more reasons, not just HW upgrade. If you are "normal user", you probably dont want that. However if you are geek, you will probably prefer this instead of Jolla or any Android phone.

If you think, the N900 is the only usable phone today - because of Maemo, HWKB and lots of more things (as me) you will buy it, or you will be sad you cant.

The HW improvement is not big, but it is next step. If you want something more powerful than GTA04, you have to make this step.

#lexik

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

The problem is that it's not enough to just have "low cost" chipset. What's more important is how we're going to buy it. Neo900 will be produced in very low quantities in comparison with phones from big companies, so prices of such "modern" pieces are going to skyrocket.

We can use those chips you mentioned. What we'll sacrifice by that is full compatibility with Fremantle and... price. If you're ok with paying above 1000 EUR for such smartphone and you can get ~500 more buyers to do that, then it can be produced - why not? :)

We have to keep in mind that this is community based project without any support from big gamers. We don't have Nokia's cash nor as many paid engineers as they have (or had :P). There's no Google behind us wanting to spread their platform. Price is going to be higher that in competition - that's for sure. But of course we can lower the difference with higher demand.

I still think that freedom GTA04, and now Neo900, can provide is worth higher price. It costs a bit, but it's an unique feature you won't get anywhere else.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

a few annotations: This is about hw design. I don't expect every of you to have an EE background, so I will try to explain some facts to you.
Designing and building hardware isn't like the software development you maybe are used to. In software development when your app turns out to segfault under certain conditions, you apply a patch, rebuild, and worst case you deploy an update to all your customers. No matter if you notice that segfault during testing or 6 months after you shipped the product.
For hardware when you find out you created a tiny oopsie in your device, then odds are you maybe have produced and sold bricks worth a million dollar or more.

I came up with this Neo900 idea since there already is a tested and (mostly) working GTA04 which we won't mess with too much to reshape it into N900 housing. And still we need to do thorough lengthy QA tests to make sure we don't sell bricks. For sure we won't go and use a new CPU family or do any similar risky massive design changes.

Last not least the idea been to keep fremantle as OS since it's tested and known to finally work sufficiently bug free (recall early fremantle version like PR1.0, and the funny little bugs we had in it, anybody?). We neither gonna change that for new OS versions that maybe have look and feel of fremantle but a new untested "engine under the hood", nor will we change CPU family which as well would need such "new engine". In the end the major idea behind Neo900 is not about a giant leap ahead in performance but rather about sustainability of what we already have and love so much. If you want cutting edge then you need to go for cutting edge product, I suggest Samsung, Apple, or even maybe Jolla.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

While I love the Maemo OS, I've no need for the hardware keyboard any more. What would it take to get a case with a slimmer profile with no keyboard?

1GB RAM is a definite requirement for me. I'd be willing to spend $650 US. Another item of interest for me would be that the hardware specs can run Ubuntu phone OS. With this, it becomes a developer device for that platform as well.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

This idea appeals to me. I'm ex-Nokia, maemo/meego/... kernel team, and would be willing to spend some of my free time assisting with kernel and low-level-user-space issues. (If you need a kernel tree maintainer, that was much of my job for the last 2 years in Nokia, for example.) I can probably pull in a few volunteers from the ex kernel team, I'm still in touch with many of them.

To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of much of the n900 userspace, some of it's as buggy as crap, and is painfully bloaty, so I don't think people should be getting too attached to it. But yes, my n900 is my daily device, and has been for about 4 years. It's almost falling to pieces, but i've made sure I've got spares so that I never have to be without one.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

But of course, this Fremantle part is about development direction associated with the project. Once you have the device in your hands, you can do whatever you want with it - even install Windows Phone if you happen to work at Microsoft and have access to their sources :P

We want you to be able to keep Fremantle as it is if you want to (in order to achieve that, we have to work on it, of course). But if you don't want Fremantle, then install SHR, QtMoko, Replicant, Mer... or port Ubuntu, Firefox OS, Sailfish, Harmattan... whatever you wish :)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Having more kernel developers on board would be great, esp those who know the OMAP3 stuff.

For sure fremantle is bloated in some of its parts, but it has the advantage to "just work". I don't know if you use CSSU, but the team has done a pretty descent job cleaning the bugs in PR1.3. So fremantle with CSSU is definitely not the PR1.3 fremantle. I know that, I am using N900 as my only device since Feb 2010.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

FatPhil,
this sounds almost too good to be true :-D Of course you're more than welcome to help keep the kernel working. And we like to see you pulling in some of your ex-colleagues as well, no doubt about that. I think you might want to have a chat with Freemangordon and Pali, both active in kernel maintenance (buzzword kernel-power). Maybe join freenode IRC channel #maemo-ssu where both of them guys often hang out? I'm sure you will be given a heartly welcome there.

Again many thanks and I'm looking forward to meet you on IRC.
jOERG

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Just work is why the openmoko while fun as a project gadget was useless to me as a phone, I never knew if it would actually ring when called.

The openmoko hardware dream matched with the maemo software effort makes an umbuntu grade geek gadget which we can still give to our mother, girlfriend, even Richard Stallman once configured.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

i just love the n900. even though it have the charging problem. but still i am not selling it. i am waiting for your project to get another n900 :p

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Ok, what is Fremantle compatible then? Looking at the specs, this will be around droid 2 (CPU 1 GHz OMAP 3620, Droid 2 Global runs an OMAP3640 clocked at 1.2 GHz, Memory 8 GB flash ROM, 512 MB RAM), droid 1 was 3430 and sgx530 with 256 ram, a lot like n900. Since droids 2 can be bought for around 130$ (refurbished around 50$), maybe would make sense to find most compatible old device and build on that (form factor will probably make this impossible, but 100$ vs 700 euro...), with omap3 the only bump is ram/rootfs