Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Aha! Yes!
Thanks! Speaking of illumination - What are the odds on user changeable LED's? RGB! I'd like nice bright greeeeeeen LED's under the KB...

I'm sure this will go nowhere.. But anyhow! Thanks!

I wonder if it's possible to change the LED! :D

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Of course it's possible and as simple as it possibly gets to change the LEDs.
But maybe - just maybe - we can do a special build for you, swapping the white LEDs for green ones. You know we build to custom. :)

cheers
jOERG

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Maaaaate! Seems like we could be friends! :)

Thanks! (and I probably will take you up on that offer!)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

:D

Then what about nice fancy multi-coloured keyboards? ;)
I think I have seen such thing once upon a time ...

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Double rainbow keyboard!

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

we only got 6 outputs on our LED controller, to control 6 kbd LEDs. And we can't really connect 3 of those LEDs in parallel or in series, doesn't work electrically. So, sorry, but that would mean severe additional cost on BOM and layout, and I doubt you want to pay for that.

[edit, answering next post] almost anticipated I've been too fuzzy: a RGB LED is basically 3 LEDs in one case, with 4 instead of 2 pins. We got:
a) SIX KBD-LEDs (all needed for light distribution)
b) SIX LED-controller outputs
6 RGB-LEDs would need 18 controller outputs which we don't have, we'd need TWO additional LP5523 to do this.
And then we have the problem of the RGB LEDs themselves: formfactor of those KBD-LEDs is 0402 (afaik), and we need to mount them sideways (to emit light direction kbd), which you can do with a two-pin 0402 but for sure not with a 4-pin (I guess there's no such thing like 4-pin 0402 at all), unless the RGB-LED component is made to shine sideways by default - and isn't larger than 0402 or whatever the current size of KBD-LED. So nope, we probably CANNOT do this.

/j

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

So, at the cost of not being able to control all 6 LEDs independently, it is possible to use RGB LEDs.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Daughter Boards/Breakout Boards:
Are you willing to make a simple breakout board to sell?

What I am thinking:

Ribbon cable to slide to under the battery to the expansion pins (Other Half type connection you mentioned), connect to a board which can sit on top of the battery with an ATMEGA chip with blank pin-out (through holes from ATMEGA) that we can solder whatever want onto?
Will need TTL serial.

Seems easy? Maybe?

I'm happy to design a 3D printable case to accommodate for the daughter board - Happy to print for people too! :)

I would like to control some hardware via the Neo900 - Will be fun and this seems like a cheaper and easier option than annoy you/devs about adding random chips.

I'd love some hardware expandability via an AT using the expansion port - Doesn't seem hard, considering how much work you have put into the Neo900 board - This is childs play for you guys! :)

Make us geeks happy! (happier??)

Edit: Not that I am ungreatful for the Neo900 - I just think having a never ending hardware addon board!! YEAH!!
I would like to add some 433Mhz componets and control my light switches/power points.

Edit: A similar hardware combination already exists which I use regularly - NinjaBlock.
A8 Chip with an Arduino on top.

http://ninjablocks.com/collections/a...aglebone-black

I really think the idea/add-on would be GREAT!
Infinite expansion ;)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I already planned to do something similar to this FPC (aka "ribbon cable") eventually. It didn't occur to me to put a chip (ATmega) on it. Sounds like a nice idea, yes.

Thanks!
/j

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Keyboard domesheet is far from air-tight, and there is already quite a much air between bendable metal plates (used to "press" key) and contact pads on motherboard. This doesn't sounds like valid concern for me. I also think, that people afraid to disassembly N900 wouldn't be purchasing board-only, aiming at fully assembled unit, instead (which means sourcing domesheets by Neo900 folks, anyway).

/Estel

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

i have a question : can you run fremantle on omap4 , sgx blobs?

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

If the external keyboard drains too much power, its an alternative to use it with an usb hub that has its own power source. I even found a topic somewhere, where someone made a tablet stand, which charged the tablet and functioned at the same time as self-powered usb hub for the otg stuff like keyboard, mouse, external hard drive etc.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I do remem. seeing the topic too...I just can't remem. where....can't find it either...did find the great topic for the n800 laptop adapter...know that one...but that isn't it....hmm ...If you find it ....post a link to it ..I'd like to go over it again.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Yep.
Hard to do (I failed twice).

http://www.omappedia.com/wiki/Maemo_Getting_Started

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I know I mentioned it in this thread a while back re: shoehorning a pager chip into the neo900
I sent the idea past Richard Stallman and he sounds supportive to the point that he might begin carrying a mobile phone,(massive PR coup) he has not carryed one so far on principle. I am going to send him a link to this thread.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Is the modem chip designed so that the nothing can alter the radio modem's own software? This program should not be updatable.
This because any NSA, KGB, New Zelander snoop force, or LAPD contractor with the right information from the manufacturer could upload a nasty custom modem firmware to do bad stuff even if the modem can't force its way with the main processor. Is there a way to checksum the modem firmware every time we boot?

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

No, we do better than this - read below why we think so
.
We will provide modem firmware update via USERLAND flasher program, and as you can conclude form this there is no way any "NSA, KGB, New Zelander snoop force, or LAPD contractor" could run such flasher program on Linux APE (aka the linux computer system) without user's permission.
So we disagree with Mr. Stallman here, we think we overfulfill the rationale behind his requirement, and we won't change our design/modem-choice to restrict user's freedom to update modem firmware, just to comply with FSF/Stallman.

BTW NO modem "chip" will ever be designed the way Stallman demands, since modem firmware generally lives in flash which always has some means to get altered, whether via JTAG or UART/USB or even OTA. It's up to careful evaluation by the hw designers of the complete system to make sure nobody will unsolicitedly change the modem firmware in a way so it does stuff we don't want it to do while the user has no idea about the fact that it does. Neo900, while not allowing checksum over modem firmware (we have no read access, modem is too separated for this), will implement other hw means to tightly monitor and restrict what modem can do and actually does - up to the level of tracing every power-up/-down/reboot, checking power consumption, blocking GPS antenna thus defeating any unsolicited GPS usage, and even detecting every single RF transmission the modem does.

Bottom line: Mr Stallman demands a modem firmware fixed in ROM, trusting in the genuine firmware not already being rogue - while Neo900 offers means to supervise the modem so it can't do any nasty without "us" noticing that and concluding that the firmware isn't doing what it's supposed to do.

cheers
jOERG

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

BTW that was my very goofy paraphrase of what RMS had written, I think his largest concern was OTA reprogramming but I cant speak for him, I did invite him to this thread. Otherwise I think the Neo900 met his listed criteria as long as it can work without blobs in one of the possible OSs.

He liked the idea of an intergrated pager receiver for incoming contact and I bet that can be done through the plug-in hobby interface, think how small the board was in the old Motorola belt pagers in the late 80s.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

In other words, we believe that the modem should be seen as a black box and should be threated as one by hw designers, sw developers and users. Trusting a black box without any control is insane regardless of upgrade possibilities (the firmware may contain malware right from the very beginning, how would you know?), and with such control any bad sides of possibility to upgrade don't matter anymore.

Anyway, while I understand and fully respect Richard Stallman and his concerns, IMHO it's better to provide the freedom to upgrade the firmware to the user. It gives some small hope for some free replacement in the future, even if it's insanely hard to do due to deep "tivoisation" of practically any modem available these days (not that it would be possible to use it under most of legal regulations anyway :( but one still can come up with some legitimate and legal lab usecases). If every phone would work that way we wouldn't have now projects like OsmocomBB, which works for instance on upgradable GSM module of Openmoko Neo Freerunner.

(for a long time there was only non-free flasher available for Calypso, but recently some REd one popped up, so it's now possible to reflash Freerunner modem with free firmware using free flasher. It wouldn't be possible at all if Freerunner would comply to FSF rules since its release)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Multi-touch (ok 2-touch) anybody? :) With rotate and pinch.
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/...eId=0112698268

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

sounds nice :)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

It sounds nice, yes. It also has touch to wake and pressure detection.

On other news I just preordered mine. Thanks!

Nice touch it would be! (From Yoda :D) Now I can at least prove to some of my friends that it can do multitouch :P And much more than their iAndroidOS :D

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Having recently purchased a Nintendo 3DS I did a bit of digging when discovering it has an optional cradle charger. It's quite clever (in the simple sense) how they've achieved this, basically two sprung pins either side of the charge port on the cradle that make contact with two exposed pads either side of the charge port on the unit that are electrically connected to the Vcc and Gnd lines. No need for fancy induction charging at all. :)

I mention this because it popped into my head when reading the previous posts concerned about charging whilst in OTG mode. Rather than adding a separate charging micro USB port (whilst useful for availability of chargers wherever you happen to be), is the Neo900 not a fine opportunity to put some of the induction charging mods people have developed into mainstream use?

So the primary charge mode would be via induction mats, and this frees up the USB port for OTG, but to handle situations whilst you don't have access to a mat you could also support charging via the USB port, at the downside that as with the N900, whilst in OTG mode you wouldn't be able to charge easily without some funky cable solution.

Thoughts?

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Since when Neo900 changes digitizer? Or I'm missing something/not understanding this link correctly (i.e. it's only about integrating "support" capacitive detection to work in pair with already existing N900 digitizer)?

Cheers,
/Estel

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

*sigh* you obviously read the datasheet cursory :-/
Here again ~50% of that page, with bold attribute added for your convenience:this is a chip that supports two-touch pinch/rotate gestures on 4/5-wire resistive digitizers (like the one used in N900), and it also comes with an option to add 4 capacitive "buttons" which we may or may not make use of, but anyway which are completely unrelated to display digitizer.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Worth a few bucks ...

As I am writing:
how about status of dual SIM possibility? (if negative, do not tell me.
I will wait some more time for a positive answer ;))

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

P*S8 do not support DSDS, but they all support firmware update, and the common LGA footprint has a sufficient number of pins that are not used and reserved for future use. I hope to suggest to Cinterion to already specify which of those spare pins might get used for a dual-SIM option that could possibly get implemented in some future release of their P*S8 firmware. Of course we would prepare Neo900 to make use of such possible extension by already providing some sort of footprint or connector to get a second SIM attached to the modem.

cheers
jOERG

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Can you (or someone else) please explain how the chip is supposed to read the extra gestures?

The image in the link mentions "Capacitive Electrodes". If I get that right these electrodes wil not necessarily be mounted on top of the screen but somewhere else (e.g. on the free space right of the screen). So they would pretty much be like extra hardware buttons.

How would these electrodes be connected to the chip? Right now I can hardly think of a wired way that would still enable me, Mr. AllThumbs, to replace the board on my own.

Or is this whole thing not for the basic Neo900 version but for the specialists who add extra features via the battery bay?

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Back on the ATMEGA breakout - We could use something as simple as:

https://tiny-circuits.com/shop/6458/

Or use a custom ribbon cable out to this connection type:

https://tiny-circuits.com/products/tinyduino/

I am going to look into designing a rear case which can hold and have the breakout connection popping out of the rear so I can just plug a shield into the N900/Neo900 case!! :D:D SEXY SEXY NERD DEVICE!

This way I can just swap the rear case between standard and one I design/print which is hold a tiny duino - Hopefully connected to your pins under the board....


Edit: @Joerg: With the "other half" connections you have planned, will these have power running through them? If yes, what is the voltage??

Thanks! I have a little idea planned :rolleyes:

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Thanks, I have read whole datasheet, but I wasn't sure if it's a chip-only solution, or something that require custom digitizer. Frankly, I still don't get how it works it magic as just a tiny chip, without modifying screen module, but from your explanation, I presume it hooks up itself via pins of digitizer and deliver capacitive detection "magic" through it?

Cheers and relax, some things obvious to EE may be not so clear to us non-EE people :)

/Estel

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

The operation principle is based on clever probing on the properties of the resistive touchscreen, particularly the reduced resistivity of one plane when parts of it get "shorted" via a "bypass" through the two touchpoints to the other plane. The principle is known since ~6 or more years. No capacitive technology involved.
http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/09/plasma-desktoplg3743.png (actually the connects "touchpoint1" and "touchpoint2" also have some resistive component depending on pressure and area/diameter of the touchpoint - I dropped that for clarity of the schematics) Think of plane1 as upper and plane2 as lower plane. On touchpoints they contact each other.

Simplified explanation:
You got 4 "wires" X-Left, X-Right, Y-Upper, Y-Lower, and you can probe 6 distinctive resistivities from that 4 terminals. I leave it up to the reader to do the permutations. 6 input variables to your clever algorithm are good for delivering a solution for X, Y, pressure - for two touchpoints. It all depends on the math you do. Some sets of input variable values may yield more than one valid solution, in that case you can't say for sure which is the right one. This clean mathematical analysis also shows why you can't do 3-touch - your max 6 input variables are not supporting any algo that yields 9 resulting values for 3 touchpoints (for 5-wire r-ts this looks different).

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Hello,

Thanks for your project, I'm impatient to update my n900 :)

I did not saw any mention of the multimedia capacity of the neo900. I know that the n900 has hardware mp3 decoder, but no ogg support (it need to be decoded in software).

Which format (audio and video) are planned in hardware for the neo900 ?

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

@ Chimrod,
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...87&post1391987

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

The decoding of multimedia formats is a software task, either done on CPU or on DSP (and/or GPU).
The DSP and GPU (PowerVR) are compatible though "stronger" on the DM3730 SoC we'll use for Neo900. It depends on the OS/distro and even the particular app which use will be made of those hardware coprocessors.

cheers
jOERG

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Thanks for your answer. I've read this post, but did not understand it was related with the audio decoder.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Thanks, if I understand correctly, this is the application job to use correctly the dsp.

I just wanted to be sure that earing mp3 collection throught the fm transmitter will not empty my batterie in one hour.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

http://tuomas.kulve.fi/blog/2009/11/...on-ogg-vs-mp3/ might be interesting for you

cheers
jOERG

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Actualy very interesting.

I really appreciate the reactivity and the support you give here. This give to the project a very good direction ;)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Sorry if asked before, but I couldn't find a response:

There were some talks about "how sacurely can we turn modem off", but, for change I would like some insight on different approach for the matter - how much info, realistically in selected modem(s), could we query from modem hardware?

I mean that, in most old "dumbphones" from Nokia, there was a "hidden" netmon program, that was giving accurate information about transmission details, including even exact channel that we're transmitting at. It was often used by cellular network enthusiasts to select least occupied (by transfer) base stations on neighbourhood (even if not the closest one), point their antennas toward it, and "force" connection to selected BS, by enabling only selected band *and* channel in their modems. This, practically, allowed to semi-goaround the limitation, that only base stations choose, where client device connects.
---

Now, I imagine, that netmon was directly query'ing modem via some AT commands equivalent. In N900, hoever, or AT queries are handled by middle-man (AIUI), allowing only for very limited set of even basic queries, leaving "forcing" anything (like channel) totally out of question. Heck, we're even struggling to get (real-life) readings of band we're using in practice (getting only list of bands that we *could* be theoretically using).
---

Now, the actual question - how it will look on Neo900? Does that "complete control over modem" mean we will get all info *and* be able to force some connection parameters, like with stand-alone cellular modems for PCs?

/Estel