Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I don't mind that it will be 0.5mm thicker, I just mind that there will be a gap.
I would gladly pay more if the Neo900 was physically the same as the n900.

By the way, this thread is already 177 pages long, making it completely unreadable.
I find this forum's interface very inconvenient, a newsgroup with a well designed web frontend would be perfect.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

there will be no gap, there will be a spacer frame of some kind, basically extending the lower plastic shell a bit. (sorry for the extremely poor quality of my photoshopped fake which I attached) The decision to go this way for mechanical design been based on feasibility, not economics. Unless you'd consider 10 times the price still something in the range of what you all would be willing to pay - since that might be the result from trying to fit LTE into N900 case without spacer frame, at least for this batch quantity we're talking about here. Make that batch 20 or 30 times as much as we hope to reach now and I'll get that stuff into the N900 case for you (since then we can go for a chipset instead of a - larger - module for modem)

The thread is 177 pages despite the "inconvenient interface" - I don't think any other interface would have resulted in a shorter thread unless we had made it impossible to post to it. Now if that is what you ask for when you say "well designed web frontend" ?
Please check if http://talk.maemo.org/printthread.php?t=91142&pp=40 more pleases your preferences, at least it's only 45 pages there

cheers
jOERG

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

This thread is like LOST TV series.
You have to watch it (read it) from the first episode (post) if you want to what is it about ;D

But I think this forum is quite user-friendly. Yes it is long, but that's normal when everyone can post in - and that's the important part of our project :)

#lexik

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I couldn't find the answer in the thread, but this thread is 177 pages long, so forgive me if has already been answered.

I donated some money right at the start of the project, if i donate again will this properly add up to the final 'discount' when i buy one? Or do I need to reference the first donation?

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

http://talk.maemo.org/search.php?searchid=16217437
6th hit is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...te#post1406790
jumping to original post (dereferencing): http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...58#post1406758
next post has the answer: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...69#post1406769 date exactly 1 month ago. 8 pages back.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Thanks for your explanation. I can't imagine how will this frame will be attached to the rest. But, how about 3d scanning the plastic part of the case, then making it 0.5 mm deeper and printing it? Its possible this was already suggested in the 177 pages, in that case, sorry!

Maybe we can make a quick FAQ with the most common questions/suggestions and put it in the official website, to avoid people asking the same things over and over.

The problem is not the length of the discussion, just the slowness/inconvenience of the interface.
My idea of a newsgroup with web interface comes from the CUPS forums. It used to have both things. Long threads are easy and quick to read by using a newsgroup reader. I use the excellent knode, but Thunderbird can also do it.

A newsgroup reader can download everything, and make it fast to search, read, etc. It also shows the threads, and you can mark things as read/unread, just like Email. Its perfect for forums like these, with so many threads, and even long ones.

I don't know if CUPS was using a custom development or something already available. I hope Maemo can use the same thing, it would be a huge improvement! :D

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Feel free to add to the BlaBlaBla in this thread, make it 178 pages!

By the way i only get 89 pages.:eek:

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I read much of this thread a while back, but I don't remember if this is planned to work on LTE in the US?

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

<ot>
Control Panel -> Edit Options -> Number of Posts to Show Per Page -> Use Forum Default :)
</ot>

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Another vote for bluetooth 4.0 APT-X and ANT+ if possible.
Even if it requires both the TI chip and the nordic one. And even if ANT+ remains the only closed PAN spec. Its worth it.
ANT+ can do mesh nodes, and multiple screen streaming which is something that is unheard of with bluetooth.

I'm not holding out much hope that this will come to premonition but i do hope you guys will atleast consider it.



EDIT:
I'm retracting my statements about adding ANT+. (atleast for the time being)
I think it might be a bit to much to ask considering parts of it are a closed spec.


I still am holding out hope for BLE and a higher bitrate codec if possible along with just saying i hope everything listed on the spec page is perfectly doable as well.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

re WLAN/BT: we tend to use wl1273 based tiwi5 module, see
http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.....8V_IO.29_EVMs
http://projects.goldelico.com/p/neo900/issues/546/


on an unrelated amusing sidenote that shows some aspects of what we're facing when doing hw development (though not exactly closely linked to EE):
http://www.theguardian.com/technolog.../sonyuserscrew (thanks to r00t for sharing)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Do we got drivers with monitor mode support for this module ?

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I saw it, but I also found some threads about problems with monitor mode on N9.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

well, all I can say is: wl12xx kernel driver sounds like a fit for all wl1251/53/71/73. And wl1251 in N900 has a injection kernel driver. Best guess: it works for wl1273 too. N9 problems don't come by surprise, given the tivoized kernel and aegis-infested kernel domain that doesn't allow loading of customized device drivers. But in the end I can't guarantee what TiWi5 can do. I just can dig up same info you can find in the internet. We can't verify the hardware to do injection. So it's just a best guess that it should work, according to all I know about.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Sorry if this has been asked before - I would imagine the software is going to be modded a little to acomodate the new features?

Alien Dalvik was working on android apps on the N900 (maemo)

Is it at all possible to get android apps working on the N900?

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

A little update:
I found http://www.ti.com/product/lp55281 for controlling the kbd backlight RGB LEDs, so this seems secured.
We're currently discussing battery management and charging, ensuring charge-from-flat-battery and boot-without-battery. Odds are we will go for bq24150 for charger/bat-mgmt

cheers
jOERG

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Well after a long time away from here this is a great thread to see, im so for this omg really do miss my n900 since a broken USB :(

Will defo keep an eye on this.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I all,

I miss the progress update for january and february, hope we will have some news in march ;-)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Yeah, we (well, I) missed the February update, but March one is already in the works! :)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

And there it is: Neo900 Progress Update - March!

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Would you mind sharing some details about these non-technical issues (perhaps in a seperate thread)?

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

About notary-stuff: Some of them were just a organizational matters that needed to be discussed between people doing business with each other. Some of them were money related stuff, aka "how to use money on Goldelico accounts for project that's not in fact managed by Goldelico as a legal entity". That's one of the reasons Neo900 UG was created. More on that will be described in more detail later, as we'll probably have to ask anyone who donated to agree with their money being moved to that new entity.
It's mostly just solving the matters that actually should have been resolved at the very beginning. Nothing interesting to be honest :)

About Pyra-stuff: we're certainly going to elaborate further on our cooperation and the results both of our projects can get from it, so stay tuned :)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

About the notary stuff: I finalized founding of
Neo900 UG (haftungsbeschraenkt)
company yesterday, which is the head entity leading the Neo900 project from now on.
All donors will receive a mail from Nikolaus next days, asking them to agree with transfer of project responsibility, their email addr and other data, and their donations from GDC to Neo900 UG.
This is needed to support and manage the project by a dedicated company that is focused on Neo900. The persons behind that project will stay all the same. Nothing will change. A mere commercial organizational thing we had to do.

[edit 2014-04-08] all this tax stuff adding arbitrary complexity to our humble project. Seems the tax advisers themselves have no clue, now they tell us it's not feasible, so we have to find yet another organizational form. :-/ [/edit]

cheers
jOERG

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Tough choice.. Get myself a Toughbook CF-U1 or a upgrade MoBo for a phone that I like very much, a shame that the Neo900 is so expensive still though :(

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Have you finalized Neo900's specs yet? Will there be different revisions with varying hardware (RAM, storage)?

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Congratulations! It sounds both scary and tedious, I'm sure you are glad to have it behind you.

Sorry to be a PITA and bother you with yet another one of my silly questions but... what does it mean for future orders? Will they follow the same path - preorder at Goldelico followed by transferring responsibilities? Or is it going to be merged into a single step?

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

neo900 = n900 +(amrv8 ???) + 1,5ghz + 1gb ram (ddram ???)+ gpu upgrade + NFC + high quality music (n73) + bluetooth 3.0 , 4.0 ???

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Yes, indeed :)


Not decided yet. My current take is "don't change anything", particularly since "preorder"-donations went down to not even 2 per week. Needs further discussions with Nikolaus whether he's willing to continue the current setup/procedure for another one or two dozen that might come in.

/j

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

The specs will be finalized only after final prototype got built and tested, until then there might be changes.
And we for sure will have different versions at least for the modems we offer. Unclear yet if it makes sense to offer different RAM and storage sizes - those would need compatible design of PCB for both variants, plus we need to be able to souce different versions in then much lower quantities, to start with. Then different designs need individual testing, read: prototypes.

/j

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I've been holding off on a pre-order until I see where the Fremantle port is heading. Some of my recent projects have been majorly hindered by upstream dropping support for QT4 and GTK2 (microb replacement) or closed packages (better WISPr integration).

I'd be willing to order at a later date, depending on the cost, personal finances (PC graphics card went 2 weeks ago, bringing forward plan to replace entire system) and software status. Is there going to be a cut off point?

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Just posted in this thread
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...70#post1418170

Are you planning any collaboration with Estel regarding his work. As mentioned by TomJ, would this eliminate the need for the spacer?

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I think metal case and/or battery lid can't work, since it at least detunes if not completely shields the antennae - so no, we won't get involved into this.

@Android_808: No "cut-off" planned so far.
/j

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Your own N950* and whole bunch of IOs/Android alu devices seems to "think" otherwise ;)

Seriously though, I'm in direct contact with some friendly people involved in Neo900 thing and I have promise of being able to borrow Neo900 "final", working board, as soon as they become available, to check for quirks (even though, considering that Neo900 is supposed to use N900 cases anyway, there shouldn't be any compatibility issues).

No plans to eliminate need for spacer at this moment, though.

/Estel

*Although, admitely, N950's radio's reception is quite poor, but its related to lacking execution of helical antennae concept, rather than metal body.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

You might have missed to notice that detail: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20140324_003.jpg N950 has all antennae in both ends of device http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20140324_002.jpg which are plastic ("PC+ABS"), not alu. See <-- picture, which also shows the "AL" triangle on center section of N950 lid.

Generaly a device can build antenna into a metal body, but that needs careful design that exploits the case metal as part of the antenna, not simply ignoring it (see: iPhone "you're holding it wrong", which obviously exploits part of the metal frame as (part of) antenna). Asserting that a change from a plastic case to a metal case wouldn't have massive impact on the performance of antennae close to - or even covered by - that new metal, is inconclusive.
I wonder who those "friendly people involved in Neo900 thing" might be. I can't recall me giving such promise, and I haven't heard of Nikolaus promising anything like that. Which doesn't mean we would refuse to send a test model to you, but honestly you don't need that since you can test with N900 as well, they will most likely be 100% identical regarding RF design.
Sure, would be hard to eliminate that anyway.


"but its related to lacking execution of helical antennae concept, rather than metal body" - err, please elaborate. Sounds intriguing, please share details! Sure I know of the "coils" built into those holes, though that's not really a helical antenna design and for sure never been meant to be one. But what's that thing about improper execution?

cheers
jOERG

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

excerpt from IRC freenode.net: #neo900



[2014-03-25 01:10:20] <dos1> https://www.privacyinternational.org...e-ubuntu-phone
[2014-03-25 01:12:05] <dos1> this article hurts :c and not because it's bad, I'd just ignore it then
[2014-03-25 01:12:17] <dos1> it's so right about the need, but at the same time so wrong about the facts
[2014-03-25 01:14:09] <bencoh> "It is disappointing that Ubuntu failed to provide an open baseband implementation that researchers could experiment with" huhu, yeah, sure
[2014-03-25 01:14:35] <bencoh> like "it's so damn simple, why didn't you come up with it ?!"
[2014-03-25 01:17:37] <dos1> "The choice of Canonical to use a binary only baseband is even more disappointing when Osmocom have already produced a functional open-source GSM baseband for the Calypso chipset. One must wonder why was this not adopted or improved upon by the talented individuals at Canonical, especially given the previous enthusiasm for open-source philosophy."
[2014-03-25 01:18:51] <dos1> yeah, one must wonder why haven't they wanted to put a 2G EDGE modem inside shiny-newest-ultrafast beast they were trying to raise runds for (Edge)
[2014-03-25 01:19:22] <dos1> but this one is more important:
[2014-03-25 01:19:23] <dos1> "That is why the Ubuntu Phone displayed so much promise. Since most phones are closed, or only their operating systems are open but not the baseband, it was hoped that Ubuntu Phone would be a first from a major mobile phone manufacturer. OpenMoko was an initial attempt but has since been discontinued."
[2014-03-25 01:20:08] <dos1> Ubuntu Phone hardly ever displayed such promise; neither Openmoko did in fact
[2014-03-25 01:20:42] <dos1> and we sitting in this room are the proof that Openmoko as an "attempt" is all but discontinued
[2014-03-25 01:22:14] <dos1> there are lots of people like that. they heard something about Openmoko, they heard that it was going to be open, then they heard that it failed and that's it
[2014-03-25 01:23:38] <dos1> but what they miss is that the Freerunner exists and still gets some basic community software support (it's more that enough if you plan to hack sw on your own)
[2014-03-25 01:24:29] <dos1> and that an upgrade in the form of GTA04 exists, so it's not "discontinued"
[2014-03-25 01:26:09] <dos1> and that it all transformed into Neo900 - a project that also already opens some opportunities on answering the "what's next?" question
[2014-03-25 01:26:51] <dos1> and that while people working on all of them would love to get free baseband, it's not going to happen to both legal and economical reasons
[2014-03-25 01:27:01] <dos1> it's just impossible
[2014-03-25 01:28:24] <dos1> ech, this is probably bad audience for such rant, most of you probably know most of it, if not all... just had to speak it out
[2014-03-25 01:29:29] <dos1> I'm getting tired of explaining the same all over again each time a topic about baseband openness comes up somewhere :( I wonder what could be more effective in "educating the masses"...
[2014-03-25 03:43:47] <-- dos1 has left this server (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
[2014-03-25 04:44:09] <DocScrutinizer05> just to add: I'll copy this to tmo, to make it a tad more visible. Nothing else to add to his brilliant analysis... maybe one sidenote: open free GSM baseband is really severely overrated, it's basically irrelevant actually
[2014-03-25 04:45:53] <DocScrutinizer05> I for one don't mind what firmware is running on the modem. I assume it's doing nonsense over the air anyway, but then GSM is "nonsense" by definition and nothing you can do about it, since that's the way it works.
[2014-03-25 04:48:18] <DocScrutinizer05> what I worry about is whether the modem can do nonsense or rather rogue stuff to my *system*. Unlike recent shared-RAM designs of all modern smartphones, the modem CANNOT access the system on any openmoko-spirited phone, and Neo900 even implements tight monitoring of the modem so it can't even do anything sneaky without user noticing it. Apart from that I don't care what it actually does


[[ infobot.rikers.org/%23neo900/20140325.html.gz ]]

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Pretty much so. The baseband in a UE is just the extension of the network and by itself it never does anything else than react to the RAN L3/L2 signalling. (only exception being maybe the cell update message, nothing else really originates from UE...)


Also true. There is absolutely no useful gain except financial reasons in having a chipset that has the baseband processing embedded in the main system. The cost gains in HW are largely offset by the SWDEV and integration costs of the system as it ends up as a monster block of binaries and functionality largely a black box to the device developers.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Small self-correction: TI Calypso doesn't even do EDGE, just plain ~60kbit/s GPRS.

When I'm using it on my Neo Freerunner to browse the web sometimes, I'm using links in X11 mode ;) So while it might be somewhat usable for some hardcore nerds like us, it's definitely no-go for their target audience. I seriously can't imagine someone using their new, shiny Ubuntu Edge with Qt Quick and HTML5 based interface with fancy animations to browse the web in the console because anything else is just too slow :P

(and I suppose the same applies to future Neo900 owners, even if the overall "shininess" will be a bit lower there)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Please elaborate for the uninformed (me). I have deposited 100 euros to the fund.....