Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

the tentative charger chip will allow not only running from "AC" but even booting the device without battery - from both Nokia system 1) and Apple system 2) USB chargers. However what's probably not working resp could cause the whole device to reboot hard is GSM transmission at the higher power levels (adjusted by BTS according to roughly your distance from BTS). Since the modem can use up to several Ampere bursts of current, it will need a buffer battery or at least TX will fail. The CPU *should* 'survive' such short brownout of power supply, but I cannot guarantee that yet. Buzzword hotswap which is based on such CPU buffering during short brownouts.
Internal uSD in parallel to the existing uSD and to the planned eMMC is hardly feasible, we would need to multiplex that, and also the assumtion of it "needing almost no space" is not exactly correct. Also theoretically eMMC is twice as fast as uSD, thanks to doubled data bus width.
On the bright side, eMMC should have a rather long life span, and it's not the most complicated part to replace, actually swapping that chip is one of the simpler tasks.

1) D+/D- short
2) resistor voltage-dividers on borth D+ and D-

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

here's crossing fingers the tentative charging chip becomes "the fur shure chargin' chip"
:D

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Tried to donate 3 times in the early days but was not allowed because I didn't have a post code. Gave up and spent the money elsewhere. I just want a faster n900. Love it to bits. Now there's a paypal option I'll save up and donate again. Nice to know there's another 1972 model out there. Keep it it up, I appreciate what you lads are doing and would love to own a neo900.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

NOTICE
Risk part: camera switch
http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-...TK0000CE24.pdf gets discontinued
Pondering amount to secure, resp alternatives to securing a certain amount right away.

This is just an info to let you know what's going on and prepare you for times when we run into more of this sort of issue. Also it shows how "preorder window" may eventually close suddenly. This particular issue is not considered any sort of problem yet.

cheers
jOERG

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

And if I don't preorder, will it be possible to get a Neo900 when it's sure the device will surely be produced?

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

We cannot guarantee that, since - see above. when we for (made-up) example get a 500 camrea switches now, then we will be able to sell only 450 devices later on, since the switches will not be available anymore. Again this is a made-up example to explain the situation we might face, ideally the amount of devices we can build is unlimted, but don't hope for that, since it may - and probably will - change eventually. We need to secure/source components and the count of components we secured will determine the size of first batch to build. For a possible second batch we again need to reach a certain minimum count of preorders and then start to see if we can find another maybe 300 (or whatever the preorder count) $whatever-all-the-components-needed (camswitches, RAM chips, etc pp). You generally cannot source an additional 10 or 50 of any such component. You buy one "huge" batch and you hope that "huge" batch is just large enough to meet the minimum order quantity of each component, which often is a 1000 or even 2500.
Hope that shed some light on the situation.
cheers
jOERG

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

There's always the option to disassemble the battery and swap the cell to a new one that roughly fits (not physically larger dimensions than original one).

Neo900 resp actually the NeoN bare board will even support custom made batteries that have a BQ27000 embedded battery gas gauge chip (identical to the BQ27200 used in N900, and Neo900) connected to the BSI contact. You could probably accomplish that by using the electronics PCB of a GTA02 smart battery and marry it with the "case", contact claws, and cell of a BL-5J. (though the GTA02 smartbatt is a tad thicker, so it might fit or not) :cool:

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

And what if a neo breaks after the warranty period. I won't be fixable because of the lack of spare parts.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

That's why I said "500 cam switches means we can sell 450 devices": 10% for replacements. Don't worry! :-)

And what if a spare part breaks in 60 devices? The modern devices are very prone to hw damage.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Then we'll fix that. Believe me, don't worry. There are proven best practice procedures in industry how to handle those topics. They do _not_ consist of "get 10 times the amount you need, of any arbitrary part". And of how many broken cam switches in N900 have you heard so far? The Panasonic switch is specified for 200'000 operation cycles (unlike some switches in cheesy cheap devices that are specified for maybe 10.000). EE guys are supposed to have a rather precise idea of what may break how often, and actually it's a major part of our job to get this right from beginning. Neo900 is made with longevity in mind, not with maximized win margin by sacrificing quality for bargains on BOM.
/j

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Has Nicolaus left the building? And dos?

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

need to write something here though there's no more to add to this, but forum sw forces me to. Ah, sidenote: Nikolaus forwarded the Panasonic camswitch EOL warning, thank you Nikolaus. Further sidenote: we decided to secure 1000 cam switches, just like we secured 1000 display connectors.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Hum...yeah...Nicolaus got alot of irons in the fire...doesn't mean he's gone tho.

Dos? Just because he hasn't posted in 2-3 weeks doesn't mean he's gone either...prob busy too... with personal work and the neo as well.

Until people say "I'm out" ...I figure they are simply pluggin' away at what they do best.

Just my opinion...

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Dave seems too arrogant /uninformed of neo900 it seems:eek:
actually a hell lot of discusions are happening on #neo900 and its logged at http://infobot.rikers.org/%23neo900/

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Im probobly all of the above and worse when it comes to neo900 :D However that Doesent stop me from follow the this project via this thread with great hawk eyes.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

and since 2 days on http://irclog.whitequark.org/neo900 which offers realtime update, unlike infobot which updates once per day. Hope you enjoy it. Many thanks to Peter Zotov aka whitequark for providing this log! :-)
/j

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

so cute :)
now pls put the log links in neo900.org and on first post ;)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Seems the IRC channel log links are placed best on IRC channel /topic, where they belong.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

na not agree as there are people who like to follow but are irc allergic or whatever so its best to place them at neo900.org for easier acces ;)
just look at dave and couple of other comments :eek:

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

HAHA. Thank you, endsormeans. I wish I would have gotten some extra sleep lately though.

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one averse to devices relying on proprietary batteries, and also glad to know this is being addressed with the Neo900.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I have to agree with nokiabot. It is better to have a central place for all source of information, rather than having people scouring for it all over the place. The Neo website is an obvious place for such a hub, this thread is the next.

As a rule of thumb, if you put information in more than one place, people will a) come to the one place they know and ask questions already asked and answered elsewhere, and/or b) lose interest.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I disagree with you, information on IRC logs is not final and may lead to some unreal expectations from the project.

P.S. kerio and lennart poettering is good example of why irc logs should not be posted as source of information.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

are you trolling ??
its a discusion channel not official announcements channel there is neo900.org for that and maybe /topic at the least should be updated might your saying goes true :)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Absolutely not.

I think that if Irc-logs going to be published in some "official" source , they must be published with some sort of statement that will say that information is only discussed and should not be taken as final. I don't think that discussions like geiger counter(iirc it was on channel) inside neo900 were meant to be more public than just discussion on irc channel.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

That's fine, IRC is for internal discussions. That is not a source of information. It does not cintradict what I said. The problem starts when people involved in such internal discussions get carried away, never lift their noses from IRC and forget that there are information channels for the public at large.

Not that I am implying in any way that tbis is happening here ;)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

IRC is just another communication channel with shorter response time. Which in turn leads to a more interactive dialog-alike communication. This however doesn't have any impact on the "worthiness" of anything stated there. It's just that I don't think users should get pointed to IRC logs as source of info, since what's getting discussed there is not meant for concise and unambiguous announcement. There's lots of noise in IRC, and discussions there are for participation, not recipitation from logs. Logs are for reference only, and for IRC users to catch up when they lost half a day of context. Thus I think it's perfect to have those links in /topic of IRC channel.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Cannot believe people will want to pay peanuts (300EU) for what is essentially a quantum-leap in phone technology, at least from an open-source and privacy point of view! At this rate, the project won't get far without charging over 700EU for the phone. Out of reach of most hackers I would think. :(

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Yup I cannot disagree... it is a pretty penny...
But it is worth it on soooo many fronts.
Here is my guestimate.
There are a whole world of people who would love a phone/ computer with less closed bits, more private, more secure, more hackable, more...um flexible all around.
The price ...at the moment is a hurdle for many...
New kid on the block syndrome as well...

But here is my take....

-Just wait until there are the 300+ units ....300+ of the lil' desirable devils runnin' around....

-Just wait until you, your neighbours...co-workers and peers see the the reviews...sees them in action...

-And as I have said...if my (still in use almost a decade later) n8x0's and my (almost 5 yr old partially closed and crippled) n900 can still outperform in some areas what other new models can't do...then how long can you guess at the lifespan of a well thought out device and os?
5-10?
maybe less than ten...maybe more with upgrades ...?
THAT makes it worth it ...
I'm not interested in buying a new smartphone every 2nd or 3rd year....THAT IS the price of the neo!
Having to buy into planned corporate obsolescence? Me? Not interested.

Just wait for the 2nd and 3rd runs...it'll get cheaper...the more people "see" them.
It may never be as popular as droid, M$, or iphone....
On the other hand ...
It may ...and the philosophy may take the world by storm...

Sadly alot of people have little in the way of vision or imagination...let alone the ability to speculate ahead in time.
But that and other factors just make it easier for the neo...
The neo....this kind of device...is exactly what is needed at exactly the right point in time. Between what the competition is offering and how they are closing things up (no root ability in the future for android?!?!) and making a mess of what advantage they got (bendgate and the recalled ios) ....the alternative choice being what? a win phone? the tizen (teasin' :D) hope? A Jolla with an increasingly dissatisfied user base of people who just want a new battery ...only to find they have to buy a whole new phone just to get the battery? .. don't forget all the coat-tail riding innovation at a snail pace...toss in a tablespoon of edward snowden and a pinch of Assange ...and voila!
The stars are in perfect alignment.
Never a better time.
I'd almost hazard the pinky of god it/ her/ hisself was at work just to make the climate favourable and the sun shine a little warmer just for the neo
:D

there we go....zealotry rant ended for the day

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

The problem is that nowadays most people want the shinies.
They want a phone that looks good (according to them), and that's it.
They don't care what's inside as long as it can run their dumb games and the lot of social networking shenanigans.
That's the very reason there's so many people going over crApple stuff... and Android is barely better.

So, as much as I would like it, I'm not really expecting the Neo900 to make a dent in a market full of Androids and iCrap, not with a bulky device with such a small screen.
Don't get me wrong, *I* love the N900 form-factor, but it's outdated nonetheless.

The best we can hope is to get hackers' and Open hardware/software proponents' attention (and of course also people that place their privacy above said shinies).
I'm cool with that, though I'll still cross my fingers in hope the project will get more exposure whenever it's released.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

You've unwittingly hit the nail on the head. "Just wait until..." The trouble is, that requires treating the Neo as a real product. Not a preorder affair with a limited run, but a something that, when my neighbours, co-workers and peers see me use it, they can go and buy one too.

I see a lot of whinging along the lines of, "people are dummies, they want shinies." The truth is, people just want to buy products. The Neo will not become a product untill it is made for the shelf.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Me too, some people spend every year or every second year 200-300€ for a useless phone. This is not necessary and I call it the facebook syndrome = It is more important how you look to others with the minimum effort than what you really are or what you really have.

The use period for the neo900 is more comparable to the N900 and this is for some people 5 years and they will also go on because there is nothing compareable.

So 700€ is at least over the time a good price for an outstanding peace of hardware and you pay for something that is worse it and for something that you want or make it like you want (software side). It is like a pocket pc.

I think some people who don't want to pay so much don't know what they can buy and how it is produced. And some other maybe have not enough money. So work hard and make your dreams come true.
Especially for me I never bought a new phone or a new computer only second hand except the neo freerunner and hopefuly in the future the neo900 motherboard.

I would also pay more for the Neo900 then it is only a matter from who and when I have all the money together. However I will everytime find a way to finance it because I want it. A good pocket pc/phone is used daily and it is not a toy which is lying around. 365 x 5 = 1825 ... 700/1825 it is 0.38 cent per day when you use it over 5 years. Some people pay more for a coffee per day and a water is more healthy and should be more worth it.

For me it was easy to convince a friend to buy a Neo900 only by telling him what it can do and what it is and he understands what a Neo900 is. There was no discussion of the price, think at mastercard it is priceless in this time to own such a thing.

Sorry for my useless comment sometimes I write what I think.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

My Galaxy Nexus is dead (more a battery problem) and seriously, I'M sick of Android (most for Apps like everybody I guess).
Now the N900 is still a good phone but it is quite old. I really want to have/buy a new phone (Blackberry or A good Nokia 1020 winMo) but you almost convinced me to wait for the Neo900. I have many hopes for this device, but I hope that it will be supported for at least the 5 upcoming years. I hope that the team behind this will update us of what has been done so far and when can we expect an out date.
Now for the price, well I did never buy a Phone above 500$ (you imagine I did never had a Iphone lol) but if it really worth it (I use the N900 since the beginning) so if it really worth it (I mean good hardware and great team behind the project to support this PC project with phone capabilities, multi task, multiOS and bla bla bla), I could really spend a lot (Technology and food are the most a spend for without thinking of tomorrow)
Anyway, I'm not the only one to be interested in this project, so You guys, better have not to disappoint us! :D

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Yup totally agree.
It is a wait and see.
Initially when the 1st iphone or droid phone was going to be released ....it was...
"Just you wait .....once it is released....and you'll see..."

Anywho with enticement there are 2 options...
1- stand outside the marketing issue ..taking the higher moral ground..and don't participate...
or...
2- Embrace the hype and use it to mock and bury the competition...use the tools of today to draw the necessary buyers.

Post release hype and marketing to entice and make the device cool and desirable ..ie.

"Look at them!

http://s26.postimg.org/3nxg7xg2h/27_...7_20_22_AM.png

They got that new neo-what-cha-ma-call-it!

http://s26.postimg.org/vpbhlmlcp/27_...7_22_39_AM.png

I gotta get me one too!!!"

That..is what will bring the "shiny people"...the coolsters...

Gotta get me some Boats n' Hoes...compliment mah neo!

Peace Out

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I don't think I have ever read a comment so true on this forum in the years I've been lurking around.

I currently need a new phone. My n900 isn't able to make calls anymore so I use it as a tablet together with my good old nokia 3410 :D to make calls. Last weekend I went to the store because I decided I needed a better solution than using 2 devices of which one is simply ancient. But I couldn't do it. I checked every Android device (I don't go near iOS stuff) but I just simply hate them. There is no other word for it. I hate what the market is dishing out to people these days. It's unappealing bling which for some reason keeps getting bigger and in the meantime this diseased ecosystem is also growing and growing serving advertisments in exchange for personal data on the unsuspecting crowd.
I waited years before I upgraded from a nokia 3410 to the n900 because I felt it was the only thing out there that connected with my needs in such a device.
Now my money is on the Neo900 to deliver the same experience. I suspect it will be a cold day in hell when one of the current big companies will ever turn from their chosen path and start making a device that people actually want instead of making crap devices and making people think they want them.

Sorry for my very off-topic rant :o. Back to work so I will actually be able to afford this really cool device. :D

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Get out of your filter bubbles guys!

The "big players" aren't pushing something to the market that nobody wants except for some weird people who are only interested in bling. Otherwise they wouldn't be the "big players".
They are delivering exactly what the majority wants (partly because they successfully talked them into wanting this - it's called marketing).

WE are the weird guys, the ones choosing a HW keyboard over a slim device, a truly open platform over the biggest appstore, and a ton of sensors over the latest SoC.
WE are the ones not being normal. But as someone once told me, being normal is not a desirable condition, except for unit vectors.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Exactly.
The populace desire what is incrementally and experimentally being fed to them. The more they get a taste ...the more they want.
Yes the n900 and neo aren't mainstream ease-of-use devices with "bling-age" ...
but it really is about the pitch.

Aim at an intellectually privileged few ...and we'll get just that.
AND WE MUST STOP HAM-STRINGING OURSELVES BY SAYING OUR DEVICES ARE FOR AN ELITE FEW WHO CAN UNDERSTAND THEM. Sure there is a learning curve in some cases ...but it is only neurosurgery or rocket science...if the individual desires that much depth and complexity from their device...
Fact is ...saying to the world ..."We stand apart...and most will not "get" where we are coming from...."
Will only succeed in a very wasteful, unproductive, and unnecessary form of self-imposed alienation.
This view and statement is not new...it isn't a privilege only of this community...it is prevalent in the world.
It automatically shuts out, is non-inclusive, does no illumination or education. And personally am not interested in it...it just breeds frustration on both sides of the illusory fence.

Aim at vid. bites highlighting security, privacy, flexibility, longevity long term affordability and a whack more "-ity's" and it'll sell to the public.
You tell Joe who works at the factory ...or Phil the waiter ...or Jean who works at the mall...that the neo is a superior device with the customer in mind ...that will...in the long haul...SAVE them money (instead of having little choice but buying a new smartphone every few years through planned obsolescence) ...and yeah...you've sold 'em.
No one....especially lower-income earners want to (or more bluntly ...can afford to) simply throw money out the window all the time...

For example ...when I was younger ..I was alot poorer... and of course I wanted what everyone else had ...what everyone else wanted and what everyone else was being pitched....BUT more than anything... I bought "smart" ...even if...at the time the purchase was more expensive than other alternatives ...I bought with the intent of having a superior product that would have a longer lifespan...the neo is no different.

Pitch it right...pitch it smart and alot of people will be lining up for one.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

that's the plan for Neo9001. When we have demonstrated we can do, we demonstrated there is a market, however niche. And we got some working OS, actually even a few ones, some of them targeted at high security for the managers and politically active people (and of course for the average Joe interested in really good security/privacy). We will build a first device in a 3 digit range of batch, costing a total of a significant fraction of a million. Next iteration can go maybe 10 to 30 times that volume, and search for venture capital (or even simple 'classical' crowdfunding) that's willing to invest without trying to tell us how to build and market a "phone". :D

/j

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

One word

"Superfandabulous"

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

When it is time to throw money down for a Neo9001...
Just point me to the sales desk.