Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Finally some action in this thread :) mission completed! I will now withdrawal. Don't make me comeback here ;)

Neo9001 sounds cool. But neo1000 sounds awsome!

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Maybe Neo900 Mk2 ?

I would like to see Pyra specs(SoC, screen) in custom case with sliding keyboard.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

"Neo900" moniker was an unparalleled stroke of genius. For Step2 (the internal project codename) we got no official name yet 1). What we got are ideas about e.g. which SoC to use, no surprise the OMAP5 used also in Pyra is top of rank on our list of candidates. ;)
KBD not as clear yet, we might go innovative if somebody comes up with something great. For screen the choices are not as limited as with a lot of other subsystems. And for digitizer/touchpad: I'm a fanatic fan of Stantum which are doing lots of awesome stuff

/j
1) The name of the Company is Neo900 UG, so I wouldn't feel surprised when the device is called [Brand:] Neo900 [Device:] Step2

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Brilliant all around...got my continued attention...(as if you didn't have it before :D)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I have different feelings about the screen.
While the N900 screen could be a tad bigger, I have no interest whatsoever in anything bigger than 4".
I would even draw my limit at the N9's size, which is 3.7", IIRC.
So the Pyra screen (will be around 5") is a no-go for me when it comes to equipping a phone.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I agree on your positive comments, but I am not as optimistic about the Neo900 taking the world by storm.

I think, fundamentally, people don't give a crap. They don't seem to care about anything. Especially the newer generations.

To me Neo900 is a device which is created by a few for a very (relatively speaking) reduced community of people who want something very specific. That's not a bad thing. I don't think the goal of the Neo900 is to be a commercial success, but just to be a successful project and put the finished product, according to specifications, in the hands of those who want it.

To be honest, if the Neo900 were a commercial success and entered the mainstream, I would start worrying. It's when mainstream success and commercial profits start being a factor that the integrity of any project starts being secondary. We don't need a large user base of mor.ons clamoring for integrated facebook and twitter.

BTW, I wasn't aware the Jolla's battery was not user replaceable. How illogical...

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Interesting that CryptoCult link but as far as can tell it's not an OS but a suite of applications. How does this relate to the Neo900 (or its successor)? Is someone going to build an OS around these applications or is the plan to run them under Replicant? I couldn't find any sign that they are open source (which should also be a concern for the privacy-minded individual).

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

The CircleTech[R] guys contacted us and asked for cooperation, which of course we will do as far as we can. Sure that's not a complete OS, but at least it has deep impact on the system config, e.g. for "encrypted storage" I'd guess. There been a few of those requests, software houses engaged into secure phone topic at large are well aware about Neo900 and its superiority regarding immanent system security by hw design.

/j

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

@ malf
ya ..chat with one suffering... have a chitty-chat with Dave...hehe..he'll tell you all about his battery-induced jolla-joy 1st hand.

I'm in agreement concerning the screen size.
as example (as I'm wont to go on about... :D) ...the n8x0 models had the goldilocks screen size. Not too small ...not too big.

I am in total disagreement tho concerning who the device is meant for.
It really is all in the pitch.
For example over here in Canada...the biggest adverts are naturally ('merican driven type advertizing) watch the ford or gm ones for their trucks...very slick. Completely aiming at as wide an audience as possible using every possible angle and tactic.
Few actually scrutinize the ads tho.
for base example...
1- ad stating truck model has just been released.
2- statement calling truck..."voted #1 in (whatever) category".
or...
statement calling truck ..."voted #1 truck of the year"
3- lotta talk about how great and optimized it is..
4- flashy scenes showing how great your life will be with it.
5- The method works and consequently ... It sells.

the important issues are ...how was the vehicle voted #1 anything for the year when it was just released? And all that being the case ...why in less than 2 years after the latest model release are they recalling them for safety concerns?
It Doesn't matter...they keep using the same ad tactics because they work.
Another more direct example is...when selling any of my work to a customer..."If I say here you go...this is it...the money please ...have a nice day..." ..9 times out of 10 I won't get a sale.
People want a story...particularly the story surrounding that piece...they want to see ..to understand it...they want to be inside my head....so I explain the process, explain the multi-layered meanings..give the piece life through a holistic view ...allowing others to see more..not just concerning the piece in question...but all around them as well. People want to buy escape...or want to buy your life...buy you....or immerse themselves in something else other than themselves...they are really trying to figure out if investing in you...is investing in something "real"..."uncorruptable" ..."true"...

It really is about selling someone else's lifestyle...Not caring anymore? naw...They just don't want to be themselves...they want to be someone else...so ....sell them how much more cool, smart, savvy, brilliant, far ahead of the "now" crowd...how their lives will be better...(I know for myself since I picked up a N.I.T. years ago...I think it has been the best thing in the world ...changed my life...I hear the same thing from others too..)
Sooo....
.pitch...pitch...pitch

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

The thing is that this is not how large scale consumerism works. People are mostly enticed into buying specific products by their environment. Their friends, coworkers, families, etc.

The herd mentality is difficult to overcome. The only reason Android has been so successful in carving a niche into the overwhelmingly Apple dominated landscape of smartphones a few years ago is due to the fact Google is a huge company, and because they have created something which, both superficially, and also regarding matters duch as privacy and how user data is viewed, is almost an exact carbon copy.

Most people couldn,t give a crap about open source, privacy, ability to develop software using an open platform with no ad-hoc mobile-specific closed libraries, etc.

Take the physical keyboard, for example. Most people will frown at the sight of one now. Yet, I consider its absence a very limiting shortcoming. Especially on a 3.5 inch screen device (which incidentally is another of the things people will not be happy with in general, especially looking at current trends to produce even larger screens).

Most people just want a phone that is pretty and will allow them to communicate with their friends without fuss. They don't want power and flexibility. They want convenience. An easy product to chew on in their digital trough for the next 2 years (or until one of their coworkers or acquaintances shows up with a newer, shinier, phone, with some gimmicky feature their lizzard brain finds too hard to resist).

Like sulu said, we are not unit vectors, so it's alright. :)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Please keep in mind that we don't aim at selling thousands of devices, for now. No sense in going to start a mainstream advertising campaign. And the device is not considered ready for prime time for joe averageuser, heck not even N900 is, tbh. Particularly not since OVI store gone south. As a rule of thumb: when you couldn't sell a N900 to those prospects, you can't sell a Neo900 either to them.
Think however what we can do once we got FOSS-fremantle with basically all the closed system bits - like audio - REed. We can for example use improved and same time streamlined/simplified audio hw design. We can use a new SoC that's not completely compatible to OMAP3530. That's the main purpose of Neo900 for STEP2: make sure we got a truly open and working OS which we can adapt to a new hw platform. Then STEP2 can start to adress mainstream. Wouldn't want to base STEP2 on replicant and plain vanilla debian only.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

That just made me think!
Modern x86 CPUs can do AES de/encryption in HW so encryption has no real impact on performance.
Would something like that be possible for the Neo900 too (e.g via some cheap and small chip)? Is it already planned and I missed it?

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

OMAP3 might or might not have some hw accel for crypt functions (probably related to HS devices which Neo900 is _not_ one of them). A separate chip is not feasible. I'm almost sure the CPU has enough power to encrypt/decrypt in realtime at maximum bandwidth of the storage interface.
/j

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Quick reply...
About Step2: Curious what it will look like, so there are several form factors:
Banana: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_8110
Swivel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N93i https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N90
Double slider: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N95
Simple: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlackBerry_Quark
Usual slider: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeeksPhone_One https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_Wizard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_Photon_Q
Round-ish slider: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_Blue_Angel

What's the availability and usability of Nokia 808's famous camera?

Best wishes. Thank you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Per aspera ad astra...

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

You forgot...

Clamshell: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_9000_Communicator

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Wouldn't it be much better to start a thread for Step2 and keep this one for the first model ?

I can imagine newcomers coming to see what the Neo900 is about and seeing talks of Step2 while "Step1" is not even released.
That'd be as confusing as it gets.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

HAhaha I still own the 9110 comunicator!!!! :D

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Please stay tuned for rollout of our extremely convenient and informative updated Neo900 block diagram (interactive html version) later on today.
I'll update this post with URL as soon as it goes public.

cheers
A.Hitch... err jOERG

Here it is:
Neo900 Block Diagram latest (interactive)
and there's more: http://neo900.org/stuff/block-diagrams/

Many thanks to Werner for this awesome work!

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Thanks for the update Joerg. I was never considering having NFC on any device I owned, but I trust this project will take the most precaution to protect my info or at the least give me the ability to really turn off chip/services.

So when I saw "NFC kill RF switch" in the diagram I thought freakin great ... but before I get all excited I want to ask you if there any thing more besides the title.

thanks

x

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Well, it is supposed to do exactly what the name says: switch off the NFC antenna so there's no way whatsoever for the NFC chip to communicate via RF.
[edit] If we can get a chip that's capable of working from RF energy (like a smartcard), then the operation scheme will be:
(KillSwitch-)NFC-enable controlled by CPU as long as CPU/device powered up.
(KillSwitch-)NFC-enable shuts down NFC when CPU/device powered down and battery inserted.
(KillSwitch-)NFC-enable allows NFC-RF-powered operation when battery removed and backlid (with NFC antenna) closed, for supporting sort of "emergency operation" e.g. when your battery runs empty and you need access to the bus ticket on NFC
/j

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Thank you for the interactive block diagram, makes it much easier dig around the specifics.

Is there a key to the colours used in this block diagram?

Red areas seem to be most vague on the specifics, does this indicate the areas most at risk/liable to change?

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Please see the legend at right side of diagram, which even has popups with further detailed explanations http://wstaw.org/m/2014/10/30/plasma-desktopNK1874.png

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Oh that's where it is!

*facepalm*

I saw the connection key but not the colours.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

As an N900 user that doesn't write code for it I disagree with the above statement that the N900 is not ready.

In 2009-2010 I was able to simulate a full mobile office in terms of access to documents and response time on mail, phone or IM with the N900 as central device.
This from situations and area's unimagined by office bound colleagues or contacts.
I felt the N900 gave me a huge advantage and there for freedom of movement.
Mobile working was a younger concept and I wasn't expected to boast my productivity with it.
It was merely a bonus I gave back to the company I worked for.
Ten years before I was already connected over 9600bps GSM data and a latpop, but for the first time all the office tools were united in a pocktetable device.

As far as I am concerned the N900 was ready because I was ready to exploit the best features of it.
And that feature set was quite complete, and I did not have to worry about abandoned closed parts in the OS and security leaks never to be addressed yet.

In fact the N900 was so useful for me that I'd rather enjoy it in silence than to start promoting it to become the next standard.
I 'd be happy to let other's play with their iPhone 3G and show me their daily downloaded apps.

The sales effort for the N900 was surely lacking as I just stumbled on it by coincidence.

Finding Nokia an arrogant and annoying company that always charged premium for devices that got updated with the next hot feature soon after that purchase I did not really care to throw them money for a top model.
However, a tech article about the N900 caught my attention and I knew this was a mile stone worth consideration.

A small "price" I had to pay for freedom was to find the limited set of useful applications in the repos system and because of the easy access to development stage applications, proceed with caution and knowledge.
A huge price for Microsoft it was to see casual users familiarizing themselves with Linux command prompts, a price which they decided not to pay by messing up Nokia before all this went mainstream.

Ovi has gone south? I really never cared about OVI on N900.

Through years of delivering tiresome support on Windows infrastructure on various cheap and diverse more ore less compatible hardware, I can state that even those widely spread and accepted systems are not ready for prime time for jane and joe averageuser.
Will an app shop change all that? No, they will still be able to run it as under adminstrator and install virusses on the fly when not properly guided and informed.

Why then we assume current mobile devices are ready for prime time in the hands of averageuser?
Because the leak of information out of those are accepted concepts, installed by design?
If we learn not to care about our data lost, destroyed or stolen, what else can possibly go wrong?

Like the Windows PC's with all kinds of peripherals these mobile devices are rather complex and there is nothing wrong with requiring averageurser to have it setup properly by a professional.

N900 was not left unsold because its deemed complexity (which honestly I fail to recon) but rather because they did not want to sell it and build a support infrastructure around it. The excuses was that it concerned only step 4 out of 5 or 5 out of 6, don't remember exactly.
The arrogance of announcing in advance your master-plan finally fired back. To competition, to share holders (why step x out of x when all you have to do is grow and make sure you are never finised?)

The common misconception these days is that mobile devices are (supposed) to be simple. What happens to the healthy analysis and pro/con decision process that got traded for the quick satisfaction of colorful tap and play app store delight?
Recently a company IT manager would try to "let me quickly install my solution of choice app" on my wife's private telephone at the office. When he found out the Samsung Note did not feature the familiar Google App store, it was surprise and end of the attempt.
Small security success: foreign hands can't and shouldn't install redundant software easily, unreflected in five minutes, potentially messing up its stable, functional state and worse, compromising its security.


If all goes well Neo900 step 2, will hook on where N900 dropped it: the embarrassing halt of further support and updates to closed source Fremantle parts.

To help achieve that goal I 'll do my best to try not to stay unlike (the only one in the hood onto Neo900?) and spread the word.

Nothing is impossible and see even my father is being unlike using an unready N900 these days.

Wish this project all the best, looking forward to future updates.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

sometimes, like a complete jerk, i forget that smart, technical non-programmers exist

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I love everything about the N900, except for the speed and battery. UNLESS I ONLY use it as a phone. If I use it as a phone, it's fast enough, but if I start integrating Skype, Google and Facebook chat into the interface (as Maemo was designed to be used), suddenly the phone is slow and the battery dies too quickly. I understand that with the Neo900 the battery will be swap on the go and bigger capacity.

However, even if I overclock my N900 to 1.1GHZ, it's still super slow. According to the list, the CPU is one of the least expensive parts, so why is it not possible to get a 2GHZ processor at least, I know there will be more ram, but it will be a much smoother user experience with a faster CPU.

I would love to see benchtests of an N900 overclocked to 1.1 GHZ vs. the new 1GHZ chip with 1GB of ram on the Neo900. Obviously the ram will be an upgrade, but considering we have the same speed basically in terms of CPU in our N900 I don't know if it will be that much faster. It's basically taking the specs of the N9 in someways and putting them in the N900 vs. taking more modern specs. Granted, we might not need that much power, but still, even the N9 lags a bit...

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

The foremost cause of lags on N900 is the swapping. Having 4 times as RAM as N900 will eliminate that. The rest is software, having a faster CPU will get diminishing returns of smoothness.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

domesheet starts becoming unobtainium, and expensive too.
So we found http://www.snaptron.com/products/dome-arrays/custom/ and did
http://wstaw.org/m/2014/11/08/plasma-desktopUm1987.png
http://neo900.org/stuff/joerg/random...ader-dots1.JPG

mega thanks to werner and xes!

/j

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

From Neo900 I expected a Linux OS phone with QWERTY keyboard. This is expected to be shipping in 3-5 months by TOHKBD which seems to be much faster way to the target.
The Neo900 goal has changed to be a fully private phone which was not its target originally. TBH I would find better to create a fully private (=secure) PC (BIOS, firmwares...) in the first place before having any concerns about security of a phone.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

1-Been done.
If you want a fully "secure" (if you are connected at all ...don't believe you are ever secure) blobless pc...
get an ibm thinkpad x60(t) ...
put libreboot, proper alt non-propriet. wifi and install trisquel or parabola.

2-Personally....Soooooo not interested in having to "replace" a battery in a Jolla (meaning- buying a whole new device at the mo. ...ask Dave ...he's been dealin' with that delight...) and for peeps like me the issues surrounding north american carriers support is sketchy...

[And now....Back to originally scheduled programming]

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

We're however building a phone, not a PC. We're not competing with Jolla in whatever way, the devices and approaches are just too different.
And taking openness as well as privacy/security considerations into account has been our policy from very beginning, we didn't change goals, we just emphasized the security aspects a bit more leately in our public appearance. This doesn't mean the design of the device, or the goals, changed significantly from what it originally been when we sketched the project on our concept papers.
On a sidenote: we are not shipping a linux OS meant for daily usage as a phone with the device, we support community projects aimed at providing such OS, like FPTF and SHR and Replicant

When the keyboard is actually your only benefit you hope for from Neo900, then I guess you probably are rather the typical Jolla user who will be very happy when TOHKBD actually rolls out and works. Will be quite a bit cheaper and with more power too.

cheers
jOERG

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Not sure about that.. Video-out(VGA?) + USB OTG + Desktop Linux, I think it's more like arm-based PC with phone-calls feature.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Hello,

Donated for a Neo900 two weeks ago and noticed that on the neo900.org website the infos of donations is from September 13, 2014 at 56K EUR. Maybe the site should be updated.

BTW, is it possible to put a better phone speaker (the one you use when you're on a phone call), as the volume coming from the one in the N900 is kind of low, and with time dust or lint from clothes get inside and block it, or maybe a "shield" to stop dust from getting in.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I have tried to keep abreast of this thread and I'm not sure if this has already been answered yet or not.
When it comes down to experimentation and devel. will there be something akin to scratcbox......
ie : a pc sandbox environment to safely design in without fear of mucking up our neo's? or is this rather the realm of fptf.(or is even that possibility in specific fptf reference to sandbox work.. only applicable to freemantle and not other os's? or would the sandbox environment be rather device than (any of the other viable) os specific? is that feasible or possible even? Or am I just off my meds?...I'm gambling that I'm just off my meds...I just answered my own query concerning meds...so ya it must be the meds...)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I think it should be possible to make a QEMU VM that emulates the Neo900.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

That's exactly the kinda positivity (gawd I hate that currently coined word...but in this one instance it sounds good) I love to hear....

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

From an emulation point of view, Neo900 is identical to N900. That's one of the major points about it, it's sufficiently identical hardware so programs/apps that run on N900 shall also run on Neo900. The faster CPU, 4 times the RAM, different modem etc will not matter in any EMU at all. Neither will the additional sensors, since SB emu doesn't emulate any sensors after all.

/j

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Just what I was wondering.
That is absolutely perfect.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Quick reply...

Going to double my donation, soon (within this week).

Anybody else wants to have a back-up Neo900? Just in case the first one breaks? Or to give as gift to somebody?

By the way, check out http://neo900.org/ : "starting to source risk parts for board itself, like 1GB RAM and RGB LEDs for kbd backlight." As mentioned on IRC, 'The funds basically don't allow securing of "expensive" stuff like the PoP RAM'.

So, early-large donations are welcome!

Best wishes.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

well wiki....
if you are gonna do that...
welcome to the double-up club :D

and ya I figured that base donation / deposit would go only so far ...
especially with needed components...
(not to mention it knocks down the final payment I gotta shuck out for... :D)