maemo.org - Talk - Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

My qwerty toh arrived today as well and was able to get it to work on my device using Kimmoli's driver (and also posted a pull request to map search key to ctrl.)

The close proximity of the search key and zxc makes common ctrl + ? actions quite an acrobatics feat. The triple line key would probably be easier to use as ctrl (just a suggestion until there is some kind of config tool or editable layout config file)

edit: it is possible to play with tohkbd on the go, you will need qt5-qmake and qt5-qtdbus-devel, core might be needed as well, and the standard gcc/++ packages of course, qmake generated Makefile and make ran successfully, yay!

kimmoli

2014-03-21 19:01

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Quote:

Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1417998)

(Search) Ctrl is sticky/toggle, press once and it stays on for next keypress

meShell

2014-03-22 18:33

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Another problem came up today with the camera or better with the flashlight, the white material around it is reflecting too much and so you can't see anything on the picture, I will add one as an example:

http://www.imgbox.de/users/public/images/BOiXg4g6vW.jpg

Maybe I will have to cut away around a bit and try how it goes.

And I did press my not working keys all night but still no luck, not a single vgt :/

dirkvl

2014-03-22 20:10

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Quote:

Originally Posted by meShell (Post 1418086)

okay, good point. next 30 will have the same shape, will change it for last batch

kimmoli

2014-03-22 20:21

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirkvl (Post 1418096)

okay, good point. next 30 will have the same shape, will change it for last batch

I have black kbd part and white phonepart, and don't have this issue.

meShell

2014-03-22 22:51

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

The greatest effekt is if you only slide out the keyboard.
If I rotate the keyboard to the maximum out I have still sometimes small reflections but not that much. But only if it's dark and using flashlight.

Maybe others can reproduce it.

stefanmohl

2014-03-23 18:02

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

@Dirkvl, how physically tough do you expect the querty-oh to be? I usually keep my Jolla in my front jeans pocket, it sometimes gets quite a bit of strain when I sit and bend forwards. With the qwerty-oh, the phone will be quite a bit thicker, so both the shearing strain and the pressure might get bigger. Do you have any idea what will happen to it if its put to those kinds of stresses?

Also do you have any idea how resistant it will be to dropping? I will of course inevitably find out at some point... ;-)

dirkvl

2014-03-23 19:02

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Quote:

Originally Posted by stefanmohl (Post 1418209)

@Dirkvl, how physically tough do you expect the querty-oh to be?

ehhh....

lets put it this way: i am a mechanical engineer. so when i design something, i will focus on two things: it will work and it will not break.

that being said, i have done 0 calculations on this design. if you want i can do a finite-element analysis on the keyboard. then i need the curve of your leg and its stiffness and the pressure of your jeans on the phone.

http://p.bfram.es/trust-me-i-m-an-engineer-2.jpg

stefanmohl

2014-03-23 20:13

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirkvl (Post 1418220)

if you want i can do a finite-element analysis on the keyboard. then i need the curve of your leg and its stiffness and the pressure of your jeans on the phone.

Hmmm, let's see boundary conditions from how hard my Quadriceps are for a FEM simulation.... Ummmm, no, sorry, I'll just have to trust the engineer - that kind of data would reveal to much to the world about the sporadicity of my gym visits! :-)

szopin

2014-03-23 21:22

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

srsly wtf, everything was working cool and dandy, then red-led-blinking reboot and since then cannot get my hwkb to work reliably, sometimes it works for 5 minutes, sometimes for an hour, don't think we can get this working reliably until jolla fixes their part (btw if anyone managed to remove their hwkb oh pls share the tactic, screwdriver where to not damage it? it is stuck hard for me and need to use windows-like trick abandon battery for 10 minutes and reboot...) that was fifth red-led reboot since non-beta, srs wtf

kimmoli

2014-03-23 21:32

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1418238)

srsly wtf, everything was working cool and dandy, then red-led-blinking reboot ...

I'm investigating this issue atm. I have had also few spontaneous reboots today. (no hwkbd connected, just running the daemon)

Quote:

Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1418238)

remove their hwkb oh pls share the tactic

I had trouble inserting it to the phone in first place, so i 'shaved' off dimples from other edge. It is tight enough to stay there, but i can get it in and out.

szopin

2014-03-23 21:41

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Quote:

Originally Posted by kimmoli (Post 1418240)

I'm investigating this issue atm. I have had also few spontaneous reboots today. (no hwkbd connected, just running the daemon)

I had trouble inserting it to the phone in first place, so i 'shaved' off dimples from other edge. It is tight enough to stay there, but i can get it in and out.

Thanks kimmo, seriously doubt it is the kb daemon though. The two weeks as main device on last beta had one green and one red reboot, after non-beta 1 green and 4 red before plugging the oh, one after, on average it seems 1.0.4.20 is thw culprit, at first thought it was me using unsupposrted features (4g), but the last one happened on 3g... They just should move to bimonthly release if qualcomm is causing troubles (not even gonna mention other buhs/problems introduced by the supposedly stable release)

kimmoli

2014-03-23 21:51

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

0.28 release note

RPM Installer, bin-only spec file
Binary 0.28 update
dbus config file remove. Relocate binary to /usr/sbin
Sessionbus connection remove
Binary 0.27 update
Fix for PageUp/PageDown
Update tca8424.cpp, Right control as backslash/pipe/ESC

Kabouik

2014-03-23 22:53

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

I was away for the past week, just came back and found the HWKB OH in my mailbox. Unfortunately, it doesn't fit. I have tried starting from all sides, gently or with some hard pressure, it will not fit my Jolla. I will try "shaving" some areas of the OH but I admit I am afraid about doing it wrong. :<

[Edit] Got it fitted after shaving a lot of areas of the OH, but it still attaches solidly to the Jolla (I have to use a credit card to remove it).

All keys but R seem to work, I have to press it in a very awkward manner for it to register, and even like that, it only works once every 20-30 attempts (same with "3" for Alt + R). Shift only works when locked with a double pressure but I think this is normal with current software version. Most special characters work, but will show a "?" before, like "?#" when I press Alt + D for "#". I was prepared to such kind of issues with a prototype, no worries, and the software will continue improving. Just sad the R key doesn't work. :(

Is your OH completely flat when closed? On mine, the top side (where the camera hole is) of the keyboard part is 2 mm away from the main part, while the bottom side firmly touch the main part. I tried to correct it but couldn't.

dirkvl

2014-03-24 17:36

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Okay, I can start assembling the next 30 in a couple of days. Hope i can send them out early next week.

They will go to:
Jouni, Jesse, Teemu, Harri (2x), Tuomo, Martin, Florian, Michael, Kamen, Heikki, Tomas, Soesman (2x), Michalko, Teppo, Walter, Peter, John, Joachim, Pawel, Auvo, Matthias, Jean, Mikko, Ilpo, Lehtonen, Matti, Kristian and Aleksi. (payments received between 29 jan and 13 feb)

HtheB

2014-03-24 17:44

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirkvl (Post 1418334)

Maybe it's a good idea to fully test them first before sending them (does it fit? does all the keys work properly etc.)

dirkvl

2014-03-24 18:58

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Quote:

Originally Posted by HtheB (Post 1418335)

Maybe it's a good idea to fully test them first before sending them (does it fit? does all the keys work properly etc.)

yes, will do!

toki	2014-03-25 03:00

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirkvl (Post 1418334)

didnt see my name there.. aww dang. guess mine will be next batch hehehe =]

(well.. i did only preorder in march ahaha)

seriously great job guys!! we cant thank you guys enough for all the hard work being put in!!

stefanmohl

2014-03-26 13:54

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirkvl (Post 1418342)

yes, will do!

Perhaps you could write down and add to the public repository what problems you discover and how you solve them? These kinds of pragmatics can be very valuable for someone trying to build a qwerty-oh for themselves... There are no make- or configure-scripts for building hardware :-)

dirkvl

2014-03-26 14:55

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Quote:

Originally Posted by stefanmohl (Post 1418566)

you mean for the 3d cad files and pcb's? or if someone wants to design another keyboard with the tca8424?

for the first people can just contact me, no problem. for the second it seems a good idea to open a sticky on the top of the 'other half' subgroup with all usefull tips, files, parts and whatnot.

stefanmohl

2014-03-26 15:04

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirkvl (Post 1418570)

you mean for the 3d cad files and pcb's? or if someone wants to design another keyboard with the tca8424?

I was basically thinking of how to open source your 'know how'; things like (contrived example): "the printed OH often pinches at the top, I usually polish it a bit two centimeters down on the left hand side and that solves it", what glue to apply and where, and stuff like that. Compared to software, there isn't much experience in open sourcing hardware devices. Perhaps wiki.maemo.org could help here too?

dirkvl

2014-03-26 15:51

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Quote:

Originally Posted by stefanmohl (Post 1418572)

the focus and experience on software in this forum is something i am very aware of! :p

however, even though all my files to make the keyboard are online, i can not imagine someone will make this specific model by them self. it can still be optimized in a lot of ways and it is not very profitable to make one. replacing parts and troubleshooting -> files very welcome.

what i had in mind was a sort of community-standard set of hardware and software tools for other half development. the chip i used in the keyboard (tca8424) still has 75 unused button in its register. so if someone makes another keyboard in a different form factor, different keyboard layout, they can still use the software provided by kimmo!

if you want to design something completely different, like a gamecontroller add-on with all sorts of weird buttons, you can use the same chip, but just map the keys in an unused space! want to add an extra "nintentdo ds-style" display with that? use the same display as the toholed!

this seems more sensible to put my time and effort in than in very elaborately explaining how to glue one specific oh together!

stefanmohl

2014-03-26 16:04

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

What you have already provided is a marvelous thing, and I certainly don't mean to criticize you! There is a solid foundation for others to continue development and making other great things from what you have started!

dirkvl

2014-03-26 16:15

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Quote:

Originally Posted by stefanmohl (Post 1418583)

oh no, i don't see your questions and suggestions as criticism in any way, but what i mean is that people in further development -probably- won't be making copies of mine, so i'd rather invest in explaining the basics, than the specifics of this design.

#efficiency #yolo

dirkvl

2014-03-27 14:35

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

First keyboard that has been sent back with failing keys has been outfitted with a new pcb and has left the country again!

Collection all the parts for the second batch. Will use transfer-tape instead of glue for the pcb and will be 0.05% larger, so will snap on and off a lot easier!

http://oi59.tinypic.com/345lvt4.jpg

Ordered some new flex-cables, which will make the construction a lot easier and really becoming a pro at sticking domesheets on ;)

QWERTY OH ASSEMBLEEEEEE
http://media.giphy.com/media/p3Tlnu6jY1cNq/giphy.gif

jamar

2014-03-27 20:58

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

So, I received mine KB TOH last friday, I'm playing with it since then, but one vertical line of keys - Y, H and B is not working. The Y key works sometimes, when I slightly bend the KB plate, but the others don't.
However, I really like this thing and the hinges mechanism, so it can work also as an stand. Really nice work, thanks Dirk.

http://jamar.veska.info/files/jolla/kbdtoh/IMG_2472.JPG

dirkvl

2014-03-27 21:05

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamar (Post 1418782)

cool pic! :)

same for you, if you don't get the keys to work after pressing them 1000 times, don't hesitate to send it back for repair!

jamar

2014-03-27 21:18

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirkvl (Post 1418785)

same for you, if you don't get the keys to work after pressing them 1000 times, don't hesitate to send it back for repair!

Okay, I'll keep pressing those buttons for now...

octane

2014-03-27 21:22

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

dirkvl: Could you try to attach the NFC sticker on the moving part of your keyboard and check if the NFC ID is readable from the phone when the keyboard is closed?

If yes, this could be used to disable the software keyboard, to force a landscape mode or|and to disable the switch off of the display, when the HW keyboard is slided out.

dirkvl

2014-03-27 21:27

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Quote:

Originally Posted by octane (Post 1418791)

dirkvl: Could you try to attach the NFC sticker on the moving part of your keyboard and check if the NFC ID is readable from the phone when the keyboard is closed.

If yes, this could be used to disable the software keyboard, to force a landscape mode or|and to disable the switch off of the display, when the HW keyboard is slided out.

HA! that would be a very good idea! i love it!

however:
-phone only reads nfc after pin is inserted in the back (giggety?)
-the nfc reader does not has this range afaik

so... what would be the way to go now is:
-activate keyboard when malliit is opened
-to force landscape and minimize on-screen keyboard on key-press

kimmoli

2014-03-28 11:20

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

toh-vdd supply is now "shutdown" when display is off,
but first keypress can send some dbus-spells to change to tohkbd-layout (minimal) - forcing landscape needs some digging
Only problem here is how to get easily back to normal vkb. maybe add quick-button to the tohkbd-layout to restore previously used vkb layout

octane

2014-03-29 00:46

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

dirkvl: I'm really sorry for writing it here, but my account is limited and I can't send private messages.
I would like to purchase one from your Qwerty OtherHalfs. Do you have some already made Qwerty OtherHalfs for sell or if I purchase one now, I'll be in the waiting list? If I pay you tomorrow, when can I expect to receive my keyboard? How could I do the purchase? Do you prefer PayPal or a regular Bank transfer (I have it both PayPal and Bank account)? Bank transfer is slower, but is free of charge for you (or should be free of charge for you). I have already read that the shipping costs to my country - Bulgaria (Classified as EUR2 in the table) are 11 EUR, so the total price with the shipment should be 111 EUR for me?
Please, add me to the waiting list and tell me how to proceed with my order.

Best regards

Yasen Iliev (Ясен Илиев)

Uitto

2014-03-29 06:47

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Quote:

Originally Posted by octane (Post 1418954)

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=619

octane

2014-03-30 01:39

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

O.K. than I'll try to make it by my own. Maybe with some modifications:
1. I'll try to add 2 additional keys (below the unlabelled keys of the Motorolas keyboard )
2. I'll try to attach a hall diode and connect it so, that its signal will be reported as a keypress. I'll check if the magnetic field of the speaker is strong enough to be detected from the hall diode. If not, I'll add a magnet too.
3. I'll install a metallic coin in the keyboard to be able to attach the phone on my custom build magnetic car phone holder. (Now the coin with some cuts on it is replacing the rubber near the Sim card)

I'm unsure about one thing. Please, someone with a keyboard to answer me: Is the QWERTY back good connected to the phone? Is there a chance that the QWERTY back could fall from the phone during the use of it? My original back haven't fall from the phone, but the QWERTY back is significant heavier as the original one. Should I provide a 4 bolt holes on the edges of my QWERTY back and connect the back wit the phone trough replacing the original 4 bolts from the phones edges with a longer bolts trough the QWERTY back, or the design from dirkvl is enough safe against falling of the back from the phone?

P.S.
And the last question: Is there a way to buy the hinge from the partlist, without buying the BT keyboard?

kimmoli

2014-04-01 16:55

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

URGENT

You need to disable TOHKBD daemon when using TOHOLED and way around too. These will fight about the I2C bus and other controls, and for sure may cause reboots and other malfunctions described by Kabouik.

Code:

systemctl stop tohkbd.service

systemctl disable tohkbd.service

systemctl enable toholed.service

systemctl start toholed.service

Code:

systemctl stop toholed.service

systemctl disable toholed.service

systemctl enable tohkbd.service

systemctl start tohkbd.service

And now i wish dirkvl would have put that EEPROM there, i did make some udevrules to start and stop daemons as needed based on EEPROM content. But maybe those can be done by NFC too.
(needs that TOH-switch-dimple on toh)

dirkvl

2014-04-01 19:21

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Quote:

Originally Posted by octane (Post 1419090)

Sounds good!

Quote:

Originally Posted by octane (Post 1419090)

Is the QWERTY back good connected to the phone? Is there a chance that the QWERTY back could fall from the phone during the use of it? Should I provide a 4 bolt holes on the edges of my QWERTY back and connect the back wit the phone trough replacing the original 4 bolts from the phones edges with a longer bolts trough the QWERTY back?

By phone is pretty banged up, but the keyboard clips fine!

Quote:

Originally Posted by octane (Post 1419090)

And the last question: Is there a way to buy the hinge from the partlist, without buying the BT keyboard?

No. :)

szopin

2014-04-01 19:37

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirkvl (Post 1419489)

By phone is pretty banged up, but the keyboard clips fine!

I would warn about the opposite, last time I needed 10 min battery off restart prying off hwkb oh noticed that phone part was getting loose from screen part. If it's thard to clip on STOP, get some fine sandpaper and file down the parts kimmo pictured few posts ago. you can damage your phone on remove (possible fix that worked for me, don't go speaker corner, find one which does come loose, mine was upper right, oh is off until weekend visit to granpa, he has some paper, not gonna risk it)

dirkvl

2014-04-01 19:47

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

Quote:

Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1419490)

i heard that... :(

2nd batch and updated CAD model is 0.05% larger and no longer seems to have this issue

dirkvl

2014-04-02 15:44

Re: Producing Qwerty OtherHalf --order counter: 75/75 --ordering closed

8 on the mail tomorrow!

Jouni, Jesse, Teemu, Harri (2x), Tuomo, Martin, Florian

exams on monday and tuesday, then moar assembling!

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