maemo.org - Talk - Jolla tracking numbers

Given that all the EU packages seems to go through Roissy-Charles De Gaulle I hope I will receive it tomorrow morning :-)
Right now it's still in VANTA-FI. FedEx please fly by night too!!!

Bubbless

2013-12-16 18:40

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by s1gk1ll (Post 1397228)

And your order_id is...?

100001883 or 4995, whichever you meant.

att	2013-12-16 18:44

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by epmt (Post 1397111)

Jolla does have enough time to communicate to us the broad shipping status. Their decision to not tell anything specific is not restrained by time, that much is clear - because then they wouldn't have time for any of the PR messages they send out.

In reality, better communications is a decision from them. Nothing more. It would take mere minutes once every or every other day by one Jolla employee. One. Jolla has decided not to report specifics. It is a choice, not time restraint.

I have to disagree. I have done some communication that have involved thousands or ten thousands people. It is always a challenge and takes plenty of time. You have to carefully balance what you can and should tell, how simple message, when, medium, check for ambiguities, not to restrict too much future options/decisions, and so on. Too much specifics and it causes problems. Too little and it causes other problems.

And when you say something, it will be torn apart by people when they are not happy for some reason.

eldoraado

2013-12-16 18:51

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Word of advice. Forget about Jollas shop status.

https://www.fedex.com/fedextrack/?ac...&cntry_code=fi
Enter the order number to the reference field and You will know if its sent or not :)

Mine is in transit but in picking mode still @ shop

IlkkaP

2013-12-16 18:52

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

This is most likely your FedEx flight out of Helsinki
http://www.flightradar24.com/FDX5195

br4ndo

2013-12-16 19:12

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Still nothing on FedEx, DHL, TNT or UPS or posti.fi. Jolla seem to ignore some countries/regions. Order no 5xx. AFAIK i will have to pay double VAT on my order on top of the waiting, first Finnish and then local. No reply from care either.

mikecomputing

2013-12-16 19:20

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziller (Post 1397208)

Switzerland - I have it "in picking" since about last thursday I think? Can't remember. But the FedEx reference tracking gives me no results at all.

To be fair though, the fedex reference tracking doesn't return me any results for anybody else's Jolla order number either... Suspecting a faulty FedEx CH site.

Ofcourse not you must provide order number, country and postage AFAIK. And I guess others don't give that to you.

ziller

2013-12-16 19:46

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikecomputing (Post 1397243)

Ofcourse not you must provide order number, country and postage AFAIK. And I guess others don't give that to you.

The fedex page doesn't require a postal code for all countries, so I just tried some order number/country combos from this thread ;)

rob_kouw

2013-12-16 19:47

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Last Friday the status changed to "In Picking", today to "Shipped". Received the mail from Jolla with the shipment details today at 13:17. Today the phone was also delivered by Fedex in The Netherlands. Luckily someone was there to accept it: Fedex tries 3 times, and then sends it back to Finland. My tracking order was not displayed correctly in the mail: 7.97392E+11...

But... no more sorrows, it arrived in exactly 3 weeks from ordering. Now, let's play! :)

ziller

2013-12-16 19:49

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by br4ndo (Post 1397241)

Not looking forward to the double VAT either =/

At least it's only an 8% penalty on top of the finnish VAT for me. I guess the Norweigan guys have it the worst with their 25%.

IlkkaP

2013-12-16 20:02

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziller (Post 1397252)

Not looking forward to the double VAT either =/

At least it's only an 8% penalty on top of the finnish VAT for me. I guess the Norweigan guys have it the worst with their 25%.

There is no VAT when something is exported out of EU. It might be that Jolla is charging the same price to within EU including the Finnish VAT and to outside EU excluding VAT. That might look like a double VAT for EU outsiders, but in reality they are just charging a higher non-VAT price for EU outsiders (maybe to offset higher shipping costs, or they might not have realized intra-EU VAT implications when publishing the price).

mikecomputing

2013-12-16 20:08

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob_kouw (Post 1397249)

IS fedex representants stupid *****s or what? Can't they use a phone!?

Bubbless

2013-12-16 20:09

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikecomputing (Post 1397259)

IS fedex representants stupid *****s or what? Can't they use a phone!?

Seriously, they don't call? Every time I've got a UPS package inc they call a few hours before and ask if I'm available to accept it.

ziller

2013-12-16 20:11

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlkkaP (Post 1397256)

The pre-order actually did have finnish VAT in it and I had to pay swiss VAT for the tshirt (not much luckily). Just checked the actual order though and the price I paid was €299 plus shipping. Is this the same as in-EU orders? If yes, then Jolla didn't remove the VAT, just marked it as zero ...which effectively means for me a double VAT.

Edit: €299 plus €100 preorder voucher of course.

caprico

2013-12-16 20:17

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

I got the shirt delivered to Switzerland too, but didn't pay any VAT! Whenever my phone arrives I let you know what taxes they made me pay.

br4ndo

2013-12-16 20:22

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlkkaP (Post 1397256)

Well they did not mention any other price than 399 including local taxes when i ordered. The difference in shipping costs is negligible so it implies that they weren't aware of the implications.

jaark

2013-12-16 20:28

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

I do believe that I have shifted from obsessively refreshing the Jolla site to refreshing the Fedex site.

It's not as though I can make the plane (that I assume it is on) go any faster.

epmt	2013-12-16 20:28

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by att (Post 1397231)

We don't disagree on communications being a balancing act. I never claimed otherwise.

I simply think Jolla failed in that balancing act this time - by being more upfront and providing more actual information I believe they would have been able to weather this storm with less badwill.

I know you don't think Jolla's rep was hurt, but others disagree and feel there was something relatively easy (such as a few more tweets on the actual progress of shipping) they could have done about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by att (Post 1397231)

And when you say something, it will be torn apart by people when they are not happy for some reason.

And when you don't say something, that too will be torn apart.

It is a balancing act, finding the solution with the best overall results.

We are going in circles, the same aliases are cross-thanking each other depending on their "camp" and no further agreement seems to be acknowledged. :) Personally I think you guys are being a little harsh on not seeing anything more Jolla could have done, because in the end my suggestions are very mild (some more tweets?), but then again you probably think I'm harsh to expect more from Jolla.

I think Jolla dropped the ball on comms this time. I think Jolla would have been wise to be somewhat more open about the progress of the actual shipping process. I think they gut a little hurt in the process and I don't think tweeting more facts would have hurt them, but helped them instead.

You don't agree. That's fine.

Let's hope everyone gets their phones in short order.

xerxes2

2013-12-16 20:33

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by caprico (Post 1397263)

I got the shirt delivered to Switzerland too, but didn't pay any VAT! Whenever my phone arrives I let you know what taxes they made me pay.

IIRC, EFTA works like the EU when it comes to VAT. This means that you only pay VAT in the country you buy from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...de_Association

IlkkaP

2013-12-16 20:39

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by xerxes2 (Post 1397270)

IIRC, EFTA works like the EU when it comes to VAT. This means that you only pay VAT in the country you buy from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...de_Association

No, this is not the case. In this context, "free trade" means only "without tariffs".

This is the correct definition of the EU VAT area:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...ax#EU_VAT_area

ck2nb

2013-12-16 20:43

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by shining235 (Post 1397148)

#1611 arrived at 08:30 in Germany, but without the extra OH.

Guess what: I got a package insert with "Coming soon" It figures! :)

Hi guys, it's my first post on the forums - after lurking for months.

I'm in the same boat - got the device delivered, but also without the OH, order ID x1796.

br4ndo

2013-12-16 20:44

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by xerxes2 (Post 1397270)

IIRC, EFTA works like the EU when it comes to VAT. This means that you only pay VAT in the country you buy from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...de_Association

I got this from Jolla customer care

Hi,

thank you for your message.

We expect to deliver during Dec. 2013. An exact ETA is still forthcoming and you will be notified when the shipping is on process.

Sales to Switzerland, Norway and Åland will have 0% VAT, but you will have to take care of the import duties.

Thank you for your patronage.

Sincerely,
Jolla Customer Care

xerxes2

2013-12-16 20:48

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by br4ndo (Post 1397277)

Yes I was wrong, another guy already came up with the right answer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...ax#EU_VAT_area

So basically outside of the EU you only pay VAT in your own country.

Rauha

2013-12-16 20:57

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Tax free price would be 399/1,24

So about 321,80 euros.

IlkkaP

2013-12-16 20:57

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by br4ndo (Post 1397277)

Sales to Switzerland, Norway and Åland will have 0% VAT, but you will have to take care of the import duties.

This basically shows how little experience Jolla has on import & export regulations. The correct formulation should be:

Sales to Switzerland, Norway and Åland will have no Finnish VAT added as exports out of the EU VAT area, but you will have to pay your country's local VAT (unless the package slips through the customs). There are no other duties to pay as Switzerland, Norway and Åland are within EEA/EFTA.

ziller

2013-12-16 21:06

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by xerxes2 (Post 1397270)

IIRC, EFTA works like the EU when it comes to VAT. This means that you only pay VAT in the country you buy from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...de_Association

Note the table at the bottom of the page: Switzerland and Norway are not part of EU VAT area.

I've always had to pay swiss vat for everything I have ordered in EU. But then again, everything that I have ordered in EU has had local VAT removed before exporting.

Wonder what kind of an invoice FedEx will send afterwards!

Rauha

2013-12-16 21:09

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

I can sort of understand screwing up Swizerland and Norway, altough its embarassing enough.

but Åland is part of Finland.

:D:eek::o

att	2013-12-16 21:11

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by epmt (Post 1397268)

I know you don't think Jolla's rep was hurt, but others disagree and feel there was something relatively easy (such as a few more tweets on the actual progress of shipping) they could have done about it.

Sorry, but I have never said that or thought that way :)

There is always room for improving communication. Even in this Jolla case. My point is that it is not easy, but it doesn't mean that people shouldn't try to improve it. And I hope that Jolla will do post-mortem after they have delivered all the preorder and try to learn from the experience, so the next time they will do it better. Currently they have their hands full of work to get everything done before Christmas/Year's end.

Quote:

Personally I think you guys are being a little harsh on not seeing anything more Jolla could have done, because in the end my suggestions are very mild (some more tweets?), but then again you probably think I'm harsh to expect more from Jolla.

I think Jolla dropped the ball on comms this time. I think Jolla would have been wise to be somewhat more open about the progress of the actual shipping process. I think they gut a little hurt in the process and I don't think tweeting more facts would have hurt them, but helped them instead.

You don't agree. That's fine.

Of course Jolla could/should have done more but it is life, everything doesn't go as planned and hoped. (I also should remember that more often :)) Especially on large scale logistics, projects or services.

And I can agree you that more communication could have helped and probably could have paid back in long run. But in short run it also could have diverted resources from more "important" things. They probably should have planned the communication better in advance so that it would not have required resources now when all the resources are needed on handling preorders.

And when you are doing the work like Jolla is now doing and things start go wrong, you will get blind. You want to believe to the last possible moment before things start collapsing that you can fix things and everything will get fine. Also you don't necessary comprehend that you know what is happening but people not there don't know and so you should start telling people what is happening. It is only human.

In unrelated case there was on interview at Finnish news broadcast: "Miten vaikeaa se voi olla?" (How hard it can be?) It was understatement of the year then and it still is :)

ziller

2013-12-16 21:12

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rauha (Post 1397285)

Tax free price would be 399/1,24

So about 321,80 euros.

Exactly. Which is not what we paid. (Had to pay full EU price)

But the again, I don't mind :) I originally ordered the Jolla with a Finnish address anyway so I always expected to pay finnish tax. Now I'll just spend the 24% as a tip for the thirsty sailors ;)

kollin

2013-12-16 21:14

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by xerxes2 (Post 1397281)

...

So basically outside of the EU you only pay VAT in your own country.

This is true if the countries in subject have a treaty preventing double taxing.If not, you are paying VAT in both countries and customs taxes in both countries. ;)

att	2013-12-16 21:17

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlkkaP (Post 1397286)

This basically shows how little experience Jolla has on import & export regulations. The correct formulation should be:

Even Itella (Finnish postal company) doesn't handle that right. You don't pay VAT when you send letters and packages to Jersey based on their price table but when you check your receipt from Itella it has normal VAT.

IlkkaP

2013-12-16 21:20

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by kollin (Post 1397294)

This true if the countries in subject have a treaty preventing double taxing.If not you are paying VAT in both countries an custom taxes in both countries. ;)

No no no... you are confusing direct (e.g. income and capital) taxes and indirect (e.g. value added and sales) taxes. VAT is never paid twice, it is either paid in the country of origin or country of destination, but never in both countries. Inside EU VAT area when selling to a private person, VAT is paid in the country of origin (in Jolla's case Finland), and when selling to outside of EU VAT area, it is paid in the country of destination.

ziller

2013-12-16 21:24

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlkkaP (Post 1397296)

This is correct. However outside EU VAT area, the destination country doesn't care at all if the VAT was paid in EU or not, they're always going to charge you with the local tax and it's the consumer's responsibility to ensure that the purchase price did not include VAT of the origin country.

att	2013-12-16 21:32

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlkkaP (Post 1397296)

Inside EU VAT area when selling to a private person, VAT is paid in the country of origin (in Jolla's case Finland).

Yes, but using the destination country's VAT percent and the seller is bound to pay it to the destination country's tax office.

You can see this if you order from Amazon. They will tax you based on your home VAT percent and then send the VAT payment to your home country.

v2px	2013-12-16 21:32

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

So, for everyone not from Sweden: FDX5195 is in the air again and has probably our packages on board! :3 Next stop (just guessing: France)
http://www.flightradar24.com/FDX5195

ziller

2013-12-16 21:43

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by att (Post 1397305)

You can see this if you order from Amazon. They will tax you based on your home VAT percent and then send the VAT payment to your home country.

And compared to outside EU: Amazon will remove the VAT from the sales price and not charge you at all. In your home country your local customs will charge you separately based on the value given on the customs declaration on the package. (Around here this usually involves a mailman refusing to hand over your parcel until you have paid the tax and customs fees in cash at your doorstep... :D )

IlkkaP

2013-12-16 21:48

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by att (Post 1397305)

You can see this if you order from Amazon. They will tax you based on your home VAT percent and then send the VAT payment to your home country.

You are correct, there are certain distance sales rules if your intra-EU sales exceed 100,000 € per country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...Distance_sales

kollin

2013-12-16 21:55

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Wikipedia :

Quote:

International double taxation agreements
It is not unusual for a business or individual who is resident in one country to make a taxable gain (earnings, profits) in another. This person may find that he is obliged by domestic laws to pay tax on that gain locally and pay again in the country in which the gain was made. Since this is inequitable, many nations make bilateral double taxation agreements with each other. In some cases, this requires that tax be paid in the country of residence and be exempt in the country in which it arises. In the remaining cases, the country where the gain arises deducts taxation at source ("withholding tax") and the taxpayer receives a compensating foreign tax credit in the country of residence to reflect the fact that tax has already been paid. To do this, the taxpayer must declare himself (in the foreign country) to be non-resident there. So the second aspect of the agreement is that the two taxation authorities exchange information about such declarations, and so may investigate any anomalies that might indicate tax evasion [1]. While individuals, or natural persons can have only one residence at a time; corporate persons, owning foreign subsidiaries, can be simultaneously resident in multiple countries. Control of unreasonable tax avoidance of corporations becomes more difficult and requires investigation of transfer pricing set for transfer of goods, Intellectual property rights, and services, among its subsidiaries [2].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_taxation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_treaty

;)

trashin

2013-12-16 21:59

Re: Jolla tracking numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordSnick (Post 1397194)

I think there was someone from norway with a low number that had in picking satus last week.

That might have been me, order #273 to Norway?

Order number does not give anything on fedex website and no tracking mail from Jolla yet..........:(

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