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maemo.org - Talk (https://talk.maemo.org/index.php)
-   General (https://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=7)
-   -   Discussing JollaOy strategy (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93610)

benny1967 2014-08-28 07:59
Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 
So the good thing that this thread reveals is: There's no new information about anything Jolla did (or didn't) that might be seen as "intransparent" or "not open" in my book.

Instead, we're discussing different interpretations of the english language as used in a thread that is more than 6 months old and came to fame only because of trantrums and dramas by a person who allegedly didn't even own a Jolla device. I do accept that for some people, whatever they read in this thread may have caused negative emotions towards the company. The important thing for me is that if this is all the storm is about, I needn't change my mind any time soon. :)
(And it could have turned out differently. It could have been that there really are serious issues one should keep an eye on.)

Morpog 2014-08-28 07:59
Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 
Could you all just stop and agree to disagree? We are discussing the same topic with the same arguments for a lot of pages now. I don't see any benefits from this.

fk_lx 2014-08-28 08:01
Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpog (Post 1437154)
Could you all just stop and agree to disagree? We are discussing the same topic with the same arguments for a lot of pages now. I don't see any benefits from this.
Nobody forces you to read this thread. In most of your posts you either try to discredit me or other people claiming they are my multiple accounts or trying to end discussion. TMO is forum, it is for discussion.

pango 2014-08-28 08:03
Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 1437153)
So the good thing that this thread reveals is: There's no new information about anything Jolla did (or didn't) that might be seen as "intransparent" or "not open" in my book.

Instead, we're discussing different interpretations of the english language as used in a thread that is more than 6 months old and came to fame only because of trantrums and dramas by a person who allegedly didn't even own a Jolla device. I do accept that for some people, whatever they read in this thread may have caused negative emotions towards the company. The important thing for me is that if this is all the storm is about, I needn't change my mind any time soon. :)
(And it could have turned out differently. It could have been that there really are serious issues one should keep an eye on.)
Whenever you have to start rationalizing what the word "transparent" means, you probably aren't being very transparent.

But it doesn't even matter what transparent means. I'm not saying Jolla needs to be transparent, even. I'm saying it would be beneficial for them to be more transparent than they are now and have offered some cases where I think more openness would have actually improved their public image, instead of hurt it. If Jolla would think about keeping their image shiny a little less and instead communicated with brutal honesty a little more, I think that would serve them and the community well.

That is of course just my opinion, but it is not made out of malice or to hurt Jolla. fk_lx may be out for his revenge by now, but that certainly isn't the case for many of us who feel this way for much more simple and less personal reasons.

fk_lx 2014-08-28 08:14
Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 
I actually spoken about similar problems Pango speaks about now on the sailfish-devel mailing list:

Quote:
That doesn't surprise me at all that Jolla hasn't responded yet. It's a known pattern for Jolla, not only in this case.

When there is a serious problem or they fail at something they put all possible effort to hide it instead of simply admitting that they failed with something and focusing more on possible solutions. Then, when unpleasant smell is all around and already too intensive to simply cover it with perfume - in other words when community boils or their clients heavily complain they slowly start to react. You can give countless examples:

* Preorders - probably everyone remembers that people that preordered were supposed to get phones before it hit the operator stores. Do you remember when apology came? When people that preordered where loudly complaining everywhere that it's unfair that a random person from a street in Helsinki can get the phone earlier before a person from Spain that preordered in May.

* Simcard holder problem - they weren't treating it entirely seriously until I've shown it to Marko Saukko (one of their more close to HW engineers) and demonstrated that it is indeed a HW problem on last FOSDEM. Then it finally resulted in actions, like agreeing to fixing that as a part of a guarantee.

* Neglecting collaboration with community in the open source parts - that is improving recently after a lot of buzz in the community, but how much time and complains had to pass before they admitted it is a problem and started to do anything about it.

For new candidates you can add:
* Silica Components and their open source status (who knows when they will be fully open sourced liked promised more than 1.25 year ago, not even a word about if that should be counted in weeks, months, years, decades or centuries...)

In my opinion their marketing/PR is just broken. You can stick posters to operator store, give balloons, do fancy photos and shout big words on stage, but I guess it's not what most of us here really expect from them in the first place.

It's fair to say that they are weak, fighting for their place on the
market and trying to figure out what their business model can be based on. But that doesn't have to mean giving up being fair to their clients, community and partners. I believe someone decisive there behind management or marketing is a perfectionist and doesn't give himself right to make mistakes. On admitting mistakes and apologizing for them you can build community/clients trust and respect. Sadly they seem to miss that fact through most of the time. The story of American company Enron should be a warning to Jolla employees and Jolla management. To those that do not know the story - magazine Fortune has listed Enron as the most innovative U.S. company for 6 years. One of the reasons that company collapsed was compulsive hiding of problems and doing everything to keep up their image of being perfect. Old (smartphone) Nokia went similar path, missing market and being ineffective to changes, slowly reacting to revolution that came with iPhone and Android phones. Hope that management in Jolla is wise enough to not follow the same path, otherwise ship might sink. Who will be responsible for that? Neither their clients nor their community.
https://lists.sailfishos.org/piperma...ay/004189.html

It is still actual. But who at Jolla would care about that post at that time. There were already preparing for the "battle" and best strategy how to discredit me.

The most important sentences in that above post are:
On admitting mistakes and apologizing for them you can build community/clients trust and respect. Sadly they seem to miss that fact through most of the time.

pango 2014-08-28 08:14
Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fk_lx (Post 1437155)
Nobody forces you to read this thread. In most of your posts you either try to discredit me or other people claiming they are my multiple accounts or trying to end discussion. TMO is forum, it is for discussion.
Personally I think one of the worst ideas ever is trying to stop discussion through some force. It will just move the conversation elsewhere and perhaps morph it into something even more negative, as people react poorly to being closed out in general. For example, I don't think it was smart for Jolla to close the SIM card holder thread many times. They did re-open it due to pressure, but still it happened (and eventually it was of course closed completely). It may seem like a nice idea to some to shut down unwanted talk, but in the long run it is a bad idea.

Your case probably a prime example. ;)

If someone wants to stop discussion, do it with great, opposition silencing arguments. Those are great.

benny1967 2014-08-28 08:15
Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pango (Post 1437151)
The "we're sticking stamps on your packages right now" is especially cringeworthy as it simply wasn't true
There, again. Each time they are "open" and "transparent", you don't believe them and claim they're lying. Why should they bother talking to people like you after making these experiences?

Cybette's posting must have been true because I received my phone only a few days afterwards. Plus Stefano explained that they had a major database issue that caused all the delays and other so-called issues around the process. (While I would call it an issue if delivery doesn't start in the exact order of order entry.)

You can still choose not to believe any of this. You can choose to assume they had all their phones packaged, stamped and piled up in Marc Dillons backyard and just deciced not to deliver them to make their own customers as unhappy as they can. In your mind, you probably see them all cheerful and relaxed, drinking champagne, laughing and making fun of the dumb customers who still wait for their phones.

Both explanations are possible, the database corruption and the champagne scene. Which one you think was true is your choice.

Morpog 2014-08-28 08:19
Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fk_lx (Post 1437155)
Nobody forces you to read this thread. In most of your posts you either try to discredit me or other people claiming they are my multiple accounts or trying to end discussion. TMO is forum, it is for discussion.
Nobody forces you to read my posts. There is an ignore feature in this forum sweetie.

fk_lx 2014-08-28 08:22
Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 1437164)
Both explanations are possible, the database corruption and the champagne scene. Which one you think was true is your choice.
Another logical fallacy "black-or-white":
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

Morpog 2014-08-28 08:31
Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 
So, lets see if a poll can bring light into this topic.
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...9&goto=newpost


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