Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

I find it rather difficult to see what public shrift about such issue would add to anyone. Except potentially giving an impression that there is something seriously wrong with whole hw-design, even if most users don't experience such problems.

Communications can easily be turned against you, as we have already seen in this thread - transparency should be something to improve things in community, so it's quite sensible to deliberate communications. Also, I doubt that community concentrating on issues like SIM-cards won't improve anything since those issues are completely out of community's hands. Therefore only sensible way is to just say, contact care and have it fixed.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Don't you think the people in this thread would have responded better to an explanation?

https://together.jolla.com/question/...e-lost-easily/

My point isn't even about what's right, but what would be the way to act in a manner that improves community perception, participation and persistence.

I don't think that, what we see in that TJC thread, is that way.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

I know I keep repeating myself, but:
What kind of explanation could that be other than "If it's broken, have us fix it"? Could you, please, please, finally come up with an example of an "explanation" that you're thinking of?

I know this thread. It's very straightforward (and open): Some users collect information about a problem immediately after launch that Jolla wasn't aware of. Stefano thanks them, admits they have no idea why this could be happening and promises further investigation. After a while he announces they have finally found the root cause, and users affected need to send their devices in. What else would you expect? Should they have made up some fairy tale in early January instead of writing "Sorry, we have no idea what's causing this"?

I admit I would have been furious had I been affected by the SIM-card-holder problem back then: To think I'd been waiting for so long... and then can't use my brand new toy! I'd have killed them out of anger. And I'd have been even more furious that it took them almost three months to find the root cause. But I'd have expected them to solve it for me, not to tell a story or "give answers". Marc Dillon might have grown a beard, but he's still not Jesus. His words can't heal. Only customer service can.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

It's a good point.
Personally I have given up about that because it would mean not doing business in China.
Despite that, this topic is certainly more interesting than the current talk about possibly defective production batches.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

What do I expect? From Jolla I would expect nothing more than what happened. I have already pretty much resigned to the fact that Jolla is a pretty secretive company.

But what I think would have been beneficial for their image and the community participation? Why not giving an explanation. Even if one would understand that there were no real status updates, the fact that they finally say they know the root cause but do not elaborate at all, speaks volumes.

Yes, they chose to withhold the root cause for whatever reason. We can only speculate.

We don't need stories or fairytales, but starting with a simple, honest, transparent truth would be a good start. They likely had some inkling of the reason, some statuses they might have been able to share throughout the process to keep the waiting people a little happier, but most importantly they could have given an explanation in the end. I find that people respond to open status updates far better than silence or "we can't tell you anything" stuff.

And if you think this is just my illogical rambling, just look at those comments. People are not very happy about the lack of explanation and the fact that the case was locked mid-stream a couple of times, and it is hard to blame them. In the end it looks pretty silly how secretive the Jolla guy is there.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

No. It was handled in simple and efficient manner: report was acknowledged, taken under investigation, root problem was found and users suffering from the problem were instructed to contact care. That was all that was needed.

Of course they could have given deep technical details about the issue, but still, everyone suffering from that particular problem would have to send their device to be repaired. So, for that part your version of transparency wouldn't have helped anyone but it might have caused problems if those details were misunderstood and/or used in hostile manner.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Really. You don't think all the people who took the time to complain about a lack of explanation might have felt better if they had an explanation? My belief certainly is different to yours.

And nobody was asking for "deep technical details". Just a common-courtesy reason and a status update or two while they investigated would have definitely kept the crowd happier.

That is what I believe anyway. To me that TJC thread looks pretty absurd with the way the Jolla guy circles around the reasons, even taking the time to clarify that nobody is forcing him silent.

Looks pretty darn weird. I cringe when I read it:

https://together.jolla.com/question/...e-lost-easily/

That's transparency? That's unlike?

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

I don't need to speculate. I know the root cause:
It's Part #B4876/III (soldered between the frame that surrounds the SIM card and part #F76a). The manufacturer bought it from 2 suppliers. One of those had issues with the material used.

Do you feel better now? Does this help?

No, most probably it doesn't because I obviously made it up. But Jolla's internal findings might have been exactly like this and therefore completely useless. (Which directly leads to the part in which Jolla can't make it public because it affects third parties, like their manufacturer and its suppliers.)

And I still wonder why we had all this fuzz about the SIM-card-holder, but not about certain other hw-related problems that I noticed were common. Maybe it depends on who's affected and how much of a troll he is.

That's what we always got. Or do you have any proof that any of them were lying to us?

I may direct your attention to the very thread you pointed to: The one "people" I have in mind didn't respond well at all to status updates.

People were angry that their phones didn't work after they'd waited for so long... and that's fully understandable. As I said, I'd have been furious, too. One person chose to make a drama out of it and has been a PITA ever since.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

It's really amusing how some people think that I'm behind Pango on TMO and Random Random on MNB, stating that I'm using VPNs, change IPs etc. I guess some people (like Morpog or juiceme) must probably have some kind of "Filip-everywhere" obsession and when they are opening the fridge they are afraid I might pop out from it. That must be a really hard problem to live with for them. My condolences to those poor guys.

Some Jolla supporters are acting really strange. It reminds me a bit a communist state citizen mentality. He will align and repeat what ruling party says, hoping that party will reward him someday. That is a healthy community? Seriously?

When someone wise like Pango comes and in very respectful way, without insulting anyone will present his opinion, he is instantly attacked that he might be Filip. Even if he would be Filip then still what kind of argument it is? If Filip says something is it automatically invalid, because it came from Filip? That's a logical fallacy called "genetic":
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/genetic

PS. Sorry Pango, that you must give proofs of you being Finnish. It's really ridicolous, but that's how some people from this community work and probably will never believe until they will see you.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

I think this is circling a little too much around flogging a dead (SIM holder shaped) horse at this point.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

If you were Jolla and that were the truth and you'd have posted that in March to that TJC thread, sure, it would have helped. And it is nice to know what will be done to the phone when sent it, so that people can assess the worthiness of it all etc. Besides, it would just seem like good manners to give some explanation.

Yes, in the lack of explanations from Jolla, the community certainly has had to resort to speculating and making things up many times. Wouldn't it be nice if all that trouble wasn't needed and Jolla was simply transparent? :)

The fuzz isn't about the SIM card holder itself, though. I brought it up, because I was asked for examples where Jolla was not being transparent. This is one.

Perhaps we can now get an answer from Jolla? Philippe, can you provide the SIM card explanation - did I just miss it, like you suspected?

When have I blamed them of lies? Never. I was merely stating that they don't seem to be very open or transparent about things and, when asked, gave a concrete example.

Here is one thing that didn't come true, though:

>@ZogG we will tell you what it is when we know what it is. At the moment as I think I said some time ago it is being investigated and until we know with relatively high certainty what is the problem we can't tell much more.
stezz (Feb 6 '14)<

There is way more than one unhappy person in that thread. And the status updates were pretty much non-updates.

Maybe a reason to have been more transparent, originally, then? Seems like some people staying silent is one big reason why that one guy turned PITA. :)

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Philippe asked for an example where Jolla wasn't forthcoming. I was answering him.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

You seem not to get the point. It's not about whether this issue is old or new, but how Jolla acted, what is seen on TJC. Btw. I would like to remind that I had significant role in showing on FOSDEM what this simcard problem is all about (previously they've thought it's problem of people who don't have original microsims but self-cut). But who cares, now for Jolla I'm enemy no. 1 and source of obsession for some of their fanboys.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Oh come on, be a man!

There are people out there who now dedicate their lives to the SIM-card-holder-non-answer-and-no-transparency-issue. And you give up after just a few hours? :D

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Could we do this without personal insults?

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

The whole thread is a constant personal insult.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Excuse me, I still don't get it. In case of hw-fault, what else do you need to know except that you should send your device to repair if you had that fault? It would serve no purpose whatsoever to "tell the backstory of the issue" when the issue itself can be fixed.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Looking beyond the insults, I still think Jolla could do well by looking in the mirror as an organizational culture and asking could they be more transparent. Could they have handled the troubles they have had with more openness, inclusiveness and would they have reaped benefits from being more open, more transparent in increased community respect and retention.

I think they would have.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

In which way?

If it's not about the SIM-card-holder at all, what is it about? Egos?

You blamed them of not telling the truth. Plus this:

This is exactly the issue with being open and transparent: It turns against you. There's no sane reason to assume Stefano would pretend to be clueless when behind the scenes they already had relevant information. Why would he do so? To make a fool of himself? To give people reason to accuse Jolla of being unable to do their job? Absurd. Still, because this one post in February wasn't what people wanted to hear back then, people create all sorts of myths and accuse him of not telling the truth. You cannot hold him responsible for your fantasies.

So, as you own example shows, it would have been better not to say anything at all than to tell the truth. Haters gonna hate anyway, no matter what you do, but if you remain silent, at least they can't turn your own words against you.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Actually, I didn't even mean you. I do understand that you took it personal because I used your own words. Sorry, I shouldn't have typed so quickly without thinking. I do not have reason to believe you in any way devoted your whole life to such issues - it's just this thread going wild I guess.

The person I had in mind.... well, I don't feel sorry in his case.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

It is usually common courtesy to tell at least what part is being exchanged in the process. Say, they would have made these two additions:

An update in February: "SIM card holder investigation progressing. We are currently suspecting the left flange as the problem. We may also need a firmware update. Will keep you posted."

An update in March: "OK, investigation complete. If you have issues, we'll update the firmware related to the SIM card sensor. For those whose left flange is faulty, we'll replace it, but it is not necessary for most."

That would have been pretty open and certainly much more useful for the participants of the thread than the non-answers they now got.

Jolla's rep was about to tell the reason, but then for whatever cause they decided not to tell it.

Just read the thread:

https://together.jolla.com/question/...e-lost-easily/

It definitely would have served a purpose to provide information in that thread, in my opinion. Now it looks pretty weird to hide it so deliberately.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

It would have helped those users understand what they were sending their phones in for (do I send it in or keep using my in-house fix or whatnot). It would have helped those waiting for the solution to have some inklings of the process. It would have been a nice gesture, as opposed to not explaining is now just weird, which would have been good PR. Besides, it would have been the right thing to do.

It is about more transparency helping Jolla's public image and their community.

Did I? Certainly that has not been my intent. I do think Jolla refuses to tell reasons in many cases, but I don't think they lie.

No, he could have offered an explanation and that would have been that. He did not offer that explanation and hence I pointed it out. For whatever reason, the explanation was silenced. But that's beside the point anyway. My point is far more general than about any SIM card holders. I think Jolla has chosen a quite secretive company culture where unpleasant issues are rather kept silent than discussed at all openly, and I think they would benefit from a change of that policy/culture. It really is, my intent, a suggestion that I believe would be helpful for them.

No, it doesn't show that. Saying nothing to all those waiting people would not have been good either. Why not just be honest and tell them a real reason? You don't have to spill all beans to do it nicely, but to not give them anything as a reason, that stings especially.

That's not transparency, that's for sure, but more importantly I don't think it is very good for Jolla's image or their progress either.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Now that's news. I cannot read this from the thread.
However, if you are able to read that from what Stefano said, we're really in the realm of conspiracy theories.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Something which is often neglected in discussions on this topic, particularly like this one, is that such a communication isn't just made to Jolla's happy and loyal customers who are technically savvy.

It's also made to the rest of the world (the media, those who don't understand technology, etc) who might make a mountain out of a molehill, and turn something like - let's say - "a few devices have a hardware issue which occasionally results in SIM disconnection" to "Jolla acknowledges fatal flaw in hardware design", which sends potential customers into panic.

The amount of miscommunication that already appears to crop up over the few things that are said does not give me much faith that communicating such issues in exhaustive detail would result in a better situation for anyone on the inside of the company.

I can say that I sort of see your point in that I like knowing the details behind issues (I'm a software geek, go figure), but I've also (repeatedly) seen the trainwreck that comes when even a small misinterpretation happens or the situation later changes plans etc.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

No? Here stezz says they will tell when they know - and then in the last update say they have been able to isolate the root cause, but don't tell what it is, even when asked in the further comments?

https://together.jolla.com/question/...e-lost-easily/

Or are you suggesting stezz never intended to tell what it is?

>@ZogG we will tell you what it is when we know what it is. At the moment as I think I said some time ago it is being investigated and until we know with relatively high certainty what is the problem we can't tell much more.
stezz (Feb 6 '14)<

stezz: >UPDATE (19.3): After investigating this thoroughly we have been able to isolate the root cause.

Should you encounter any SIM related issues, please submit a request to Care and they will help you.<

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

If you ever signed an NDA for doing business, you'd know that you cannot simply discuss all issues happily in the public for legal reasons.
If in doubt, you better say nothing.

I don't know if this is the case here, but I don't mind. There may be reasons, though, and to us users it doesn't matter at all. All that matters is that if you were unlucky to get faulty hardware, you'll get it replaced under warranty.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Nobody is asking for exhaustive detail. I am offering my opinon on how to improve comms. Now Jolla appears secretive and me and some of us feel it is a bad vibe. I'm sure there would be a common ground where your concerns and mine would meet better than they do now.

I think that TJC thread on the SIM card holder comes out plain weird when at the end no explanation is given.

I wonder how many of you cringed when Apple did something similar with their antenna.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

And your suggestion involved pretty exhaustive detail, and I offered a viewpoint on why that may not be so hot an idea.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

As I've said before, I can understand how a low-level grunt would feel like that if there is a secretive culture at the company. But many of the Jolla social media figureheads are pretty high up. I'm fairly certain they could make quite different policy if they so chose. Then again, when the leadership are secretive, that culture fast spreads all over the organization in general...

stezz, for example, is the CTO at Jolla. I have a very, very hard time believing his hands were tied from answering by an NDA. Jolla's management decision, of which he probably was part, sounds far more likely to me?

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

I would have settled for them naming the part generally they are about to replace. This is what usually companies do. Even "unlike" companies.

Well, it is pretty unlike to say nothing at all. I'll give them that. ;)

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Apple's antenna-gate is a totally different story. Apple finally had to acknowledge that every single device was affected. In Jolla's case a small percentage of devices sold were affected, which is business as usual with electronics devices.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

How do you know how many Jolla's were affected without knowing what the fault is? Or do you know? Did some of the first batch have some faulty part or what was it?

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

No, because explanation still would not have prevented the need to send those devices for being repaired.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

From where do you know that small percentage? Any data how many devices where affected? What about number of devices that were sold this far?

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Why would it be interesting for me, as I don't have the problem?

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Without knowing what the explanation is, it is hard to say. I have certainly witnessed (out in the world in general) warranty repairs that didn't help at all, in which case knowing beforehand might be useful.

Anyway, I think from a PR perspective - in this early adopter, community stage - respecting the community enough by giving them an honest, solid reason when something like this happens just smacks of good policy to me. The secrecy in that TJC thread doesn't sit too well with that.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

pango, do you even own a Jolla?
zogG which you linked a few times already didn't own a Jolla back then btw.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Well, mine for certain is not affected, so that makes it < 100%. And looking at TMO and TJC it doesn't look like that many people have that issue, so I assume it's a small percentage of X, of which you may roughly approximate a lower bound from download statistics visible in the store.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Youre trying so hard... What he said is they'll tell once they know more. And that's what they did: They found that people had to send their devices in for repair (and the issue couldn't be solved be exchanging the SIM card, as Jolla may have hoped, or by a software update, as users might have expected).

Really, you're interpreting more than you're reading. And you seem to always think the worst of people. That's just unfair. Maybe I've been following the various Jolla communication channels more intensely than others, but I found the inner circle of what appears to be Jolla's face to the public exceptionally kind, straighforward and helpful. There's just no way they'd be as evil and arrogant as you try to paint them here. One can just wonder what your motives are.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

I believe I iwn one of the first - perhaps second - badge phones , I never experienced SIM problem.
I have had random shutdowns/reboots (causing the phone one time to not be able to start or enter recovery, only fastboot was possible - thus my worries for a flashable fastboot image)

Also, regarding issues. I have seen Jolla startong to pay more attention, lately regarding spare battery, and taking up the flashable image seriously.

That gives me hope

Lastly, I know I have raised stormy waters to create attention, while this can be taken as an attack, this is not MY intention.

I knew I purchased a beta device, I did that on purpose, i know and knew some of the limitatiions, yes, some is still a pain - for me - but this "love to hate" is getting too much attention and space.

If You dont like the smell on the Bakery, choose the one next door. But the bread might just not taste as good.