Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

I think some people are making way too much out of the pre-order and initial shipment issues. If people go back to the ordering process at the end of November, they were told "Order before December 2nd and you'll get your phone in December". That was the promise and for the vast majority that is what happened.

Yes there was a big gap in the middle when people didn't seem to get any and yes DNA had them in store before some pre-orders shipped. But ultimately, they shipped.

Obviously something went wrong in that process but really, cut them some slack - 1st product, new processes, new Magento based store (not the most reliable IME), pre-Xmas with overworked staff and international postal services. They seemed to have worked like mad to get back on track.

Jolla's communication was maybe too transparent. They perhaps should have just kept to their " in December" promise when asked and next time no sequential order numbers ;-)

Or maybe I'm just way more patient?

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

I haven't said anywhere that your whole argument is wrong because of fallacies. I've only pointed that some people make logical fallacies. So you made a strawman now:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

;-)

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Just to be clear, when I refer to the SIM card holder issue, I am referring to both the repair-requiring phones and the public relations handling of that case, which has been discussed on this thread. So, just to be clear on that.

What puzzles me are the constant mischaracterizations of my views in this thread. Is it genuine misunderstanding or a way to exaggerate my point of view, so that it is somehow easier to counter? Hopefully the former.

I do not need "minute details" of anything. I am explaining my opinion why I think added openness and transparency would be beneficial for Jolla's public image. In the case of the SIM card holder TJC thread, I think it was a mistake to close it a few times and I think it was a mistake to withhold any explanation especially once the root cause was found.

I am not demanding "minute details". I am suggesting some level of added openness, of "brutal honesty" as jalyst put it so eloquently, that I think would be beneficial both to the community and Jolla's public image, as I sense a certain reluctance on Jolla's part on discussing difficult topics.

Why would it be a problem that Jolla admits a flaw? If there is, as you say, a batch of phones with faulty SIM holders - just say so. This sentence alone in that TJC thread would have been a lot better than was gotten:

That is, by the way, the first time at least I have ever seen anyone from Jolla comment on what was the SIM card holder issue. So, I guess better late than never.

Of course CTO's have to respect NDA's, but the likelihood of them dictating what is public (and thus not covered under any NDA) in a company is much higher than for lower-level people. But given the past of Jolla, and the tendency to not discuss difficult topics in public, I must admit I'm a little skeptical an NDA was the reason here. Without any better information, my guess is that it was deemed better for Jolla to not disclose an explanation at that time.

Anyway, the person answering in that TJC thread was Jolla's CTO. I'm sure he was aware of what the problem and the explanation were. It was simply withheld from public for whatever reason. I'm advocating Jolla adding more openness and transparency, because I think it would do them good.

Recall can be for a small subset. But it was just an example of company providing detailed explanations, as one poster here said he had never seen any company post any details of such issue.

I don't think you need to. You certainly don't have to. I think you would be better and better off if you did, though. It is respectful towards the customer, the community and it is transparency. But most importantly, information helps people to deal with issues they are experiencing. Information is caring. Silence brings out the boogeyman in more was than one. And vague platitudes and non-answers are even worse than silence.

It seems to contradict your earlier sentence that there was a batch of faulty SIM holders? I mean, if there was such a thing, so what, why not just say it and that it will be swapped under warranty. What is this circling around things.

Sure. And if you did yell back then, good for you. Apparently someone higher up decided Jolla wouldn't be open about things then even though such voices were inside Jolla. That's unfortunate. I just don't personally see that anything has changed. If it will, good for you and the company, I think changing this will serve you better. You may find that people are much more forgiving when given actual, relevant information. Silence or vague platitudes on the other hand tend to make issues even bigger than they are.

fk_lx (even though I disagree with his rampage style) has a fairly good list of continued silences in this post, maybe it is something your organization can consider:

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=186

That is why I posted here to congratulate jalyst on his post. Maybe his post will help you understand - don't mind my bollocks, if jalyst's post can help you think about this, great:

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=29

Sure, I get that. Hence the feedback. I don't want you guys to fail.

No need to, although I must say it getting bigger has, in my view, some things to do with this same reluctance to deal with issues with brutal honesty. Had that been done earlier on to deal with it, fk_lx probably would never have blown the gasket like he did. (And far be it from me to agree with a lot of his style, although his posts in this thread are quite solid.)

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Again, absolutely nothing wrong with the issues Jolla faced. Easy to understand them all.

Except the part where they chose to stay pretty much silent throughout, not offering any real information. If they were "too transparent" earlier, they certainly weren't transparent through out the process.

Jolla was perfectly within their rights not to inform the customers. But that means the lost an opportunity to respect the customer through transparency and choosing a less route of lesser values.

It is hard for me to see what downsides there would have been to being more transparent about the process. Maybe it was an ego thing, someone would have felt embarrassed to share the woes?

That would have been very unfortunate, because problems for a startup are very understandable and it is easier to deal with them from a customer-side if you have solid info on where things are progressing.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

What kind of information would you expect other than "We start shipping and hope people will still get their phones 3-4 weeks after purchase"?

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

I don't expect anything, especially not from Jolla anymore.

But what I would think would have benefited Jolla and the community both, would have been status update on the delays within and the progress of the pre-order delivery process. A few brutally honest status updates, written by someone like Marc, a few times throughout the month or two the orders were being fulfilled. This could be done on varying levels of detail, or through answering some of the questions people posted etc., so certainly many different ways they could have done it. Give people info to help their wait out and show them that you care - since a lot of people were filling Excels and whatnot to stay posted on the status...

A small start-up with an early adopter crowd certainly could do such a thing easily and would also benefit from it, in my opinion.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

question pango - do you own a Jolla?

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

I don't see why it matters, but: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=168

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Somehow seems I am still misunderstanding you as I can't figure out what you want. As asked before, please give a concrete example (the contents can be entirely fictional of course).

Ok I am stumped. So you get the info we are looking into it and will avise once we found the cause. What else can we say? And once the cause found you get the info needed to get it solved. So you do ask for the minute details... You just contradicted yourself.

It is not a contradiction. If there was a sim card holder problem it would be systematic. What happened was that somewhere in the chain there had been some bad QA and as in any production some devices/components are faulty due to manufacturing mistakes. That is why there is warranty and why they are warranty cases. If there was a problem, like bad design or so that would have been a problem. Of course for a single person recieving a device with a faulty component that causes malfunctions is a problem. And I worded it badly, it was not a batch of phones, but rather a batch of phones with an abnormally high amount of specific faulty component.

And this discussion about semantics and understanding points out why it might have been a good idea not to say anything.

There have been changes luckily. But at the time everything was so chaotic that it took a while before people got their mind made up about what to say and how. And it took too long indeed.

But I would say Jolla is pretty transparent, and apart from not having time to answer all questions. Or having to balance things with commercial interests (it's a company after all). I do not understand what more you would like. If we can help we usually do. Like here: https://together.jolla.com/question/...-mode-chooser/
Where else do you get that kind of service?

But we are not all knowing beings and we cannot just decide on our own what is best for Jolla. It's a team and a team effort.

Regarding your list:

* I think the pre-orders has been spitted out enough and Jolla/sailors have admitted communication could have been better. But that is the past and cannot be changed

* Sim holder. As just explained, an extra visible excess of warranty cases, over-dramatized and exagerrated by certain individuals

* Neglecting co-operation with open source community... Can you give any examples where we have not done that? We cannot give into all frivolities either. It is not because some people want a bugzilla we should give it. Other people wanted a forum and so on... We submit lots of our patches upstream, they do stay not in our trees and people don't have to go pick them out of the sources. I mean we even fix bug reports out in the open if that applies. There are occasional hiccups and some people don't always get what they want (and can be very vocal about that) but we also have limited resources and things that give us legal headaches (like the QC binaries). But I don't think we are neglecting it.

* Silica open sourcing. Well yes that has been mentioned, but due to lots of overworked people and a host of other things it has not happened yet. And unlike people think it is not as simple as slapping a license on it and put it in a public place. It's unfortunate it has not been realized yet, but slapping a date on it and making another promise without knowing if we can make that date is not going to help anybody. But then again some people will not accept "as soon as we can" as a valid answer.

Also I would ask you to do your research and actually make up your own mind. Especially not basing it on the coloured viewpoints of a person with a vendetta.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Even if you don't see any problems with a company being more transparent on such issues doesn't mean that there are no problems.

Official statements can easily backfire with the media happily spreading the news enriched with some made-up extra-information to generate more clicks.

Also even a CTO or CEO is bound by NDA if it involves another company. And in case of hardware it certainly involves another company as Jolla isn't building the phone themselves in a garage in Finland. Should Jolla really risk losing their hardware manufacturer or worse, just for this?

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

"Silica open sourcing. Well yes that has been mentioned, but due to lots of overworked people and a host of other things it has not happened yet. And unlike people think it is not as simple as slapping a license on it and put it in a public place."

Silly question perhaps, but; does the re-licensing of QT make this prospect more or less likely?

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTc2ODI

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Seriously if I was a Jolla employee and I was reading this whole thread I would have definitely resigned and search for a job in Apple/Microsoft giving the finger to Open Source and the whole OPEN ideology because if this is what you get for beeing as open as possible and you get that kind of responses from the community then why bother? (thank god that kind of responses only come from a handful of people)

Some people have to understand that Jolla is a company and as a company they need to survive financially, they are not a charity, neither a non-profit organisation. A tiny startup company that have to follow the rules of the market and those rules won't permit the level of opennes some people want to have for a thousand reasons.

So if those people keep bitching about some non real problem on forums like this and still haven't changed their phones (or have done that but still bitch arround here saying the same non-sense), then I am sorry this smells fishy (not sailfishy) about what they really want to achieve.

Life is too short to waste on that kind of tiny things, move on and stop trolling (unless you are paid to do so).

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

I don't think so.

Personally, I see this as one of Jolla's failures. It would be nice to have an "explanation" =) on why a component that is supposed to be entirely developed in house and for which there seems to be some demand is not yet OSS.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Is there a reason why the Silica components need to be open sourced?

Is there a benefit to Jolla and therefore the community for non-Jolla people to be working on the Silica components?

Does it make strategic sense?

It seems to be massively important to some people. Equally it's massively important to some people that the device can be reflashed. These seem like really minor things to me personally (I'd rather see CardDAV, better CalDAV and SIP _personally_) but perhaps I'm just not understanding why it's so important.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Ah, that's what you are afraid of - media. I don't think media are that evil like you suggest. If media are telling obvious lies about a product, then usually companies ask them kindly to correct that. Otherwise there are always legal methods for them to correct obvious lie. I remember when first reviews of Jolla appeared in portals like Engadget and The Verge. The review was shock to many people at Jolla - "how someone could criticize our absolutely awesome, ground-breaking and innovative child... ?"

I remember that just after the launch I was helping Polish portal dobreprogramy.pl to have chance to test Jolla phone. I wrote a mail to Stefano if he could get a phone for review and he said that I should contact Marianne Holmund which was handling press and making list of media wanting to review freshly released Jolla phone. But I have found faster route - short time later Thomas Ruecker (tbr) who was going to Poland in December agreed that he could help with giving his unit as he will be visiting Wrocław. So I wrote once again to Stefano, that there is no need as tbr already promised that he will give them the phone to review. Stefano answer was very, very strange and consisted of one sentence:

I thought - what the heck? Phone is already in the wild, on sale and anyone having a Jolla could give dobreprogramy.pl phone for review. I replied:

Stefano replied:

So in other words, that shows that Jolla didn't want for press to test normal Jollas at that time that people bought in store, but specially prepared ones to create illusion that the phone is better than it is. It's because they had big trauma after The Verge review:
http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/29/5...nds-on-preview

They considered The Verge review completely unfair, but it was entirely fair - what portal wrote in article was a set of valid criticism around issues they've encountered with the product.

So the whole problem was that Jolla employees were living in a bubble for a long time, how awesome and talented they are and what absolutely great product they've created that millions of people will want to have. Moreover, they will prove how Nokia was wrong to ditch Meego and get rid of the awesome people connected with it at Nokia. It was very important, it was a matter of honour and ambition (do you remember Vesku shouting on stage "Nokia were cowards"). That certainty has heavily crashed with first cold reviews, later with sales under expectations and withdraw of some European operators that previously wanted to sell Jolla (http://web.archive.org/web/201310060....3.dk/d/jolla/).

My theory is that atmosphere in Jolla is like of people trapped in besieged fortress for long time. "We were supposed to put world at our feet, but we are attacked from all sides"
Their overreactions to criticsm, calling people trolls, paranoid etc. if they have different opinions like Pango or me. Jolla employees try to misrepresent critical opinions, discredit people expressing them etc. Unfortunately some of the devoted believers of Jolla in the community are joining this and using the same methods. That way reasonable people, that are tired of candy PR will leave soon and Jolla will be in new bubble with its community believers.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

It was quite beneficial to me, when developing, to look into the source code of Silica to understand how the particular element is supposed to work.

The QML part is open source already and I don't think I've had the need to look through through the C++ bits (if they were available), but I can't rule it out.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Keep in mind that tbr's phone was likely not a normal phone, but a developer's prototype with unreleased software.

So IMHO Stefano's reaction was justified and the right thing to do.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

There is a benefit, people could try to adapt Sailfish UI for example for desktop or help to further develop it and fix bugs. Besides it's not about benefits, but about promises. If someone promises of open sourcing Silica components on biggest FLOSS conference in Europe - FOSDEM (2013), to make some buzz and attract people, then later withdraws, softens it's statement with every month, to make it only half open, then it is clearly not ok and PR trick.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Where in that page it says that they are going to sell Jolla in Denmark? By the way isn't that operator selling Jolla in Hongkong?

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

I think I have provided examples on this thread, but just a quick look more at the SIM card update from Jolla:

"After investigating this thoroughly we have been able to isolate the root cause.

Should you encounter any SIM related issues, please submit a request to Care and they will help you."

Here's a bit more transparent version:

"After investigating this thoroughly we have been able to isolate the root cause. Turns out there is small amount of left flanges missing from an early Jolla batch. In such a case, we'll install a left flange at no cost as part of warranty service.

Should you encounter any SIM related issues, please submit a request to Care and they will help you."

It really doesn't have to be very elaborate to be a lot more transparent. During the pre-order deliveries, quick progress note or few, with actual info on the progress, would have been more than enough too.

You could explain what the cause is, no need to go into the minute details. You know, there are options between no explanation and minute details. No? This is not your average consumer product, this is an early adopter, enthusiast product. People care about such things. And some info during the wait for a solution can help with the wait. I'd hardly consider a rough explanation of the operation the phone will undergo for a fix as minute details.

Looking at that TJC thread, giving some explanation seems to just common courtesy too. These people had been raising an important issue, why not respect them with an answer when they asked so many times?

Well, it was - and still isn't - my intent to imply a systematic SIM card holder problem. But I must admit, the silence seemed damning, as if there might be a huge problem to be silenced. That's what silence does. It gets filled with doubts and speculation. Like I said, I think it would be in Jolla's benefit - and that of the community - to increase transparency.

If you want to see it that way. In reality, what I'm asking for is neither unreasonable, nor unprecedented.

I am happy to hear there have been changes.

I have no personal issues with Sailfish development style. I think Jolla is also doing many things right there. That's it too, seems like on a software engineer level Jolla is working pretty solidly, it is the corp comms, strategic moves and phone business part that has been lacking transparency and openness.

And my experience is that there is a culture of silence, instead of a culture of transparency, in there (in the areas mentioned above). That is the external perception. Just letting you know. And by that I mean beyond what I'd reasonably expect as business secrets. I don't expect all being out in the open for a business, of course.

You mean fk_rx's list?

You can improve current communications. That would be the best way to show things have changed. Besides, I think you are about the first sailor I remember going into such detail and critical look on the matter in public. That's refreshing. Keep it up, smells like transparency. Import it to your work place too.

Perhaps the scale was minimal, but I still think the TJC thread getting some explanation would have made Jolla look better than what it now did. The point wasn't about a broken SIM holder in some phones (understandable, although unfortunate), it was about how to handle the complaint in the best way possible. I offered my views.

I guess you are referring to fk_lx's list, but I don't recall personally commenting on the FOSS aspect. I think Jolla's participation in FOSS projects is OK, although there have been surprising limitations actually making Jolla one of the less open source solutions on the market. But as I'm not personally very big on FOSS anyway, I don't mind that as much as some. I would like Jolla to be honest, frank and upfront about such things though, so improved comms and added transparency over these is always welcome.

Others are more qualified than myself to comment on stuff like Silica, but I think one reason again is the lack of transparency in the comms department. You need to realize that you are probably one of the bigger contributors from Jolla, regarding these tough issues, in months if ever in this thread. Keep this rate up and you'd be pretty darn near as a company to what I'd call transparent enough. :)

I base very little of my opinion's on fk_lx's vendetta. But in reverse, I would suggest that you - and others at and around Jolla - also stop ignoring fk_lx's view point because of his vendetta. The vengeful stuff is easy enough to tell apart. There are good points also in his posts, do take heart.

Like I said, I want Jolla to succeed. Lately I haven't been feeling the love.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Is this true? I did not know about this. Philippe?

That sounds very strange and indeed goes hand in hand with my comments on transparency.

Trust your product, trust people. That's just a weird, weird event if true. Why does Jolla keep having these weird events...

Oh dear.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

It seems perfectly reasonable to me that Jolla would want to give journalists completely factory fresh phones or perhaps with a representative set of applications and data pre-installed rather than those that have been used already and had who knows what installed on them. Stefano's concern is valid.

They obviously want reviewers to have the best possible experience in a manner in which Jolla know what is on their product. From a reviewer's perspective, it's also impossible to give a fair review of a product if part of the specification is not as it came out of the factory. You have to disregard the differences and you possibly can't totally discount that those changes might have a positive or negative effect on the product. For a new, previously unseen product like Jolla that would be incredibly hard to do.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Well, you can of course overreact, or you can see the suggestions as well meaning feedback. fk_lx may be on his spree, but others are not. Stop seeing feedback as the enemy, think about it instead. That's all I ask. If after honest thinking you deem it unfitting, then that's that.

I do understand that, though. None of what I've suggested, for example, in increased transparency contradicts that. Indeed, I believe added transparency within the early adopter/enthusiast sphere would be positive for Jolla's business, whereas current type of silence is detrimental to their business.

Ah, yes, the age-old "if you don't like it, leave" argument.

And the final stinger about paid trolls. When you are all out of arguments.

In general, I think listening to apologists sounds, to me, a worse idea than listening to critical voices. Of course, all voices, including critical voices, should be listened to critically.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Unfortunately there are moments when I think you are right about that. But I think there is hope that isn't the whole truth.

I still want to believe in Jolla. But I do sometimes wonder if they have lost their way regarding their values and a community spirit.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Seems awfully bureaucratic given the small-time context in this case. It isn't The Verge that was being talked about - and the phone was already on sale. Anyway, quite control-freakish.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Thanks, after 20 pages of popcorn binge we finally get it (ok, 12 pages, first question to pango to provide example of what he expected as transparent SIM handling is post 100). Those two sentences make all the difference. I can die peacefully (from popcorn overdose).

On a serious note though, how can one even begin to think you guys are serious? Your social justice crusade about openness/transparency turns out to be a joke in the end. Was it really worth 20 pages and innumerable walls of text? And now faked disbelief, 'is this true'? Oh dear Jolla how could you want to provide perfect device for review rather than random dev device, you guys are evil!!!
Good luck getting that PR head/CEO position and having your company succeed with that policy, maybe your advice to advertise problems/faults/hiccups would be taken seriously then (or do you count on getting transparency consultant position in Jolla, I believe this is the standard SJW tactic, you can shut my 'outrage' and I will write you two sentences in return for a monthly pay)

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

There is no outrage on my part - not towards Jolla anyway. But I do think Jolla would do well/better by being more transparent.

And yes, in the case of the SIM card holder, it probably wouldn't have taken much for it all to fly under the radar as far this discussion goes. But now, indeed when the answer was so explicitly and, really, clumsily denied, it is a pretty poignant example of a wider issue at Jolla, which is not addressing difficult issues well.

As said, there are other examples.

Luckily we have a poll, where nobody else thinks Jolla should be more transparent. Yes?

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93629

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Still it's a bit strange, that Engadget and Verge nuked the device in their reviews, while in their previews they wrote very prostive about it. Other reviews for example german big tech sites Golem.de and heise.de had it a lot more fair reviewed.

And don't tell me Samsung, HTC and co. won't give out prepared devices to media :D

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Of course they do.

Wait, what's so unlike about Jolla again?

(Really the thing that bugs me about that case is the rigidity of it all. So you have a guy willing to pass on his Jolla to some local blog somewhere. And you have a bureaucrat at such a small and agile-looking company jump on that?)

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Well, you may have forgot about it. Jolla is a small startup. They can't easily take drawbacks like Nokia, Samsung, HTC can (especially Nokia :) ). They don't have billions of dolars of cash lying around. They were a bit in panic it seems and wanted to have a perfect start. It's still business after all.

You people should concentrate less on the PR. You can see and feel the openess of Jolla on IRC, and the open source parts of MER, Nemomobile, SailfishOS repos and upstream stuff like Qt. Even TJC has some bits of open feeling. Why nobody sees that? Do you get that anywhere else? And no, yearly codedrops don't count.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Some people here just want everybody orbit around him/her, in a endless discussion.

Imagine the days spent in this hate crusade if it was used for Qt Quick (or Python, etc) programming.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

And why is this such a surprising thing to you?

As an example, take a Jolla, and hand it to someone without letting them walk through the tutorial with zero exposure to the UI or its paradigms, and they won't be able to switch applications, because it's "different". And then they'll accidentally end up with the notifications feed, etc, etc, etc. This is why the device tutorial exists, and this is why new users - like your typical journalist would be - are put through that tutorial.

Also, unreleased software can be (and often is) incredibly broken in a million different ways.

You give that to someone from the press, and they discover that the browser plays five frames of video from youtube and crashes for instance because of some work-in-progress bug, and congratulations, instead of "Jolla is working hard on their software" as a headline, you just earned "Jolla's phone can't even play video".

Initial experience is everything with someone who isn't a "convert". I spoke about this before, but I really don't think you realise just how hard dealing with someone who knows nothing about all of this can be. To draw a sort-of-parallel, you might have just a matter of minutes at best to try get them to understand how things work and get them on your "side". Crashing software and having to spend those five minutes manually explaining/demoing the software, for instance, are going to ruin your chance for such an initial experience.

And if that person is publically covering your product, they might ruin your initial experience with a much wider audience.

And you don't think that warrants any care at all?

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Yes, that's what I want.

Because I can't possibly want Jolla to be more transparent and succeed better through the improved community reaction that would bring.

No, wait. I want the latter.

If anything, I've tried to keep the discussion around jalyst's suggestion:

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=29

Don't give a hoot about me or my words, but for Jolla's sake, think about jalyst's suggestion.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

I agree they probably have been panicking and have been trying to look perfect and thus forgot about how much trust transparency can build even through tough times - and reverse, how quickly trust erodes when transparency is lacking. I'm suggesting they not be so afraid of looking a little more rough, but also a little more open and honest in the process. I think their public image would improve.

I guess you can feel the openness of Jolla on IRC when they are not kicking or blocking you? ;) But I do agree, aside from certain surprising non-open components (that actually make Sailfish a less open alternative than some), Jolla is quite an OK FOSS citizen. I think their participation mostly in FOSS stuff is OK.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

The only guy I ever ever ever saw gotting kicked there in the last 2 1/2 years was fk_lx. Have you seen what he did to the piratepads? Or on the developer maillist? He continued even after the community, not Jolla, asked him to stop his defacing and spamming. Should he do the same on IRC? Is that a sane behavior?

For me the discussion ends here. It's useless to discuss with you. I even started again to think that I'm discussing with fk_lx.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

I guess it shouldn't be. Jolla has been shown to try and protect their pristine image in ways that I have a hard time fitting with an idea of modern, agile, social tech company. They are indeed quite closed and controlled in their comms policy, very old world aside from the fluffy stuff. I'd rather see something different from them.

No no, I do think it warrants care. I just think it was shooting a fly with artillery in the context of a guy loaning his Jolla to a blogger.

There appears to be a pretty controlling culture within Jolla, which makes people afraid to step outside of that. I guess that is why people are so vague in the comms as well, afraid of a superior or team reaction and not sure what can be said and done. Some that, of course, is understandable, but I'm not getting a very open vibe from Jolla.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Come on, people post popcorn images and make jokes all throughout the thread without me quitting. Live a little. Laugh a little. It was a joke.

That said, I believe Jolla has recently used banning and closing in other places, contexts with a few other people as well. No?

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Since this is such a major issue to you, a free tip: if you can't live with the "level of openness in communication" Jolla provides, the easiest way out is to take your money to some company that provides it on the level you need it. Problem solved.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

I can perfectly well live with the lack of openness Jolla provides, but I do see things cropping up for Jolla within the community and am offering my thoughts on how they could improve in this area.

Again, here is jalyst's post that made me respond because it resonated:

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=29

Think about his post, if not mine.

And why would I want to take the easiest way out, if I'd like to see Jolla succeed instead? I just don't think being a silent or cheering apologist is the way to go when I see something I think they would do well to reconsider.

Mine is a honest suggestion. Transparency breeds trust. And that's good for business as it is for community.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Fine, but offering that one thought for 24 pages? I'm sure it's more than enough for Jolla to pick it up, if they're interested.