Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Don't shoot the messenger.

The point is: A more transparent Jolla would generate more positive engagement and less negative engagement.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Are you really suggesting there are no such companies in existence?

Are you saying Jolla has reached the optimum level of transparency vs. business secrecy and nobody could do any better?

Remember: Jolla is a small company. Think of the wider world of SMBs and consider this point.

I can go to detail, and to companies, but let's try to sort out the macro level first. How would you answer these questions?

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Are you, too, suggesting Jolla has struck a perfect balance between business secrecy and openness, and that they could do no better? That there are no companies in the world that do it better?

Like I said, we can start digging into specific SMB stories if we really must, but let's agree on the macro level first. Do you think it is possible to be more transparent while being profitable? Or do you think such companies probably don't exist?

I think helping their business would stem from less negativity in the community and thus more positive buzz around their products. I think keeping so many secrets and trying to control even the simplest messages too much has alienated some people and that could have been avoided with simply a little more brutal honesty.

Read jalyst's message and you get the point:

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=29

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

No. I've asked you directly for 2 companies and you've yet to deliver; deflect no longer about FOSS and whatnot, just answer the very direct question in a very direct manner please.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Here is an example of one area where Jolla's PR and reality don't meet in the eyes of some:

https://together.jolla.com/question/...as-truly-open/

These would be the kinds of things needing to be clarified through better communication and perhaps more brutally honest PR too.

When you have to start making excuses for Jolla, like people do in that thread on TJC - and indeed many do here on this thread, it starts to look quite iffy. Has the movement really come down to excuses.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Well, I see the outcome of the poll as a result for this discussion inside this community. A minority of less than 25% really see a need of improvement.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

"Nice" interpretation, you could work at some ministry of propaganda. I see around ~50% of people that voted in poll that want Jolla to be more transparent and ~50% of those, think they need to improve. If you don't count Jolla employees votes results are even worse for you.

Even if only 25% would vote "yes" (1 and 2) option then it should be considered seriously, but it's 50%.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

How would I know? It's you that has argued that. And I still have not seen your examples.

I have experience only of large companies and I am working for one of those, a company that is not transparent in your sense even to employees working inside it.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Ah, the good ol' 'turn it around' strategy.

How would I know? I'm not advocating your point of view, so why should I try to find companies that support your case. But given that you have spent 27 pages of discussion without a single example of a company that is more open, which would definitely help your case, I'd say they're hard to find huh? :) You're turning to other people, like me, to find them for you, after all.



You also failed to provide evidence to support your hypothesis "more [buzz word] would help Jolla", while other people have provided examples that would reject such hypothesis on some significance level (like examples of media turning around unnessessarily provided info). Given you also had 27 pages to present it, don't blame me for calling it a bluff :)

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

I'd love to see this in an unofficial TMO poll.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Pango, how old are you?

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

How old are you Benny? You seem to speak like an old men not wanting anything to change. Like such arguments?

Age argument is really stupid and falls in fallacy. I could give countless examples when young people did breakthroughs as well as old ones.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

You forgot to switch your account to 'pango'. Just sayin'... :)

EDIT: I know that Pango is from Finland, while fk_lx from Poland. Just pointing out that even if Pango's intentions were right (of course if he provided some examples to support his claims), fk_lx joining him in midst of his revenge spree isn't very helpful to Pango, as fk_lx's intentions are solely to make a revenge, not to prove anyone's point or even help improve Jolla.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Ah, Filip-everywhere obsession once again here.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Edit: Ah... I see what you did there.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Pango, are you a politician? If not, I would strongly recommend you switch to that. I know some like you.
You are so good in developing long sentences without anything much to say. You could mystify lots of people and pretend you know so much about how to run a mobile company, how to find the balance between transparency and closed-doors info. I am sure you could do that in so many subjects.
And you can keep talking for long hours until your discussant stops or I must say abandon the idea of repeating himself the same argument again and again.
I sometimes was thinking reading the thread: I should reply. But I admit I am not good enough against people like you.

You have clearly win some sort of record to continue the thread even if everybody gradually leaves it, including the one you would like to talk to: the sailors.

Really let me say: congratulations. You have a talent.

The only problem is that in countries like mine, politicians have lost the interest of so many after having tried so many times to convince people with no substance.

PS: I know already that you will say something like: "you do not understand, let me say my point again" and this is really funny :)

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

OK, good that we agree there can be more transparent companies than Jolla has been, because there certainly are many such examples in the world of SMBs. Transparency isn't easy, it isn't an instant cure to anything either, but in long term it breeds trust and loyalty like no other.

Perhaps I will have time later to properly discuss some less known experiences with SMBs, but for now let's look at a single phone-related example that I think helps understand my point a little better.

One of the issues some have lamented is that Jolla has not been open about the pre-order process, that no information was offered, even when glitches happened and the schedule/order was endangered. No real info was even offered afterwards, just vague platitudes.

In comparison, check this out:

http://www.fairphone.com/2014/07/25/...livery-begins/

Their transparency difference compared to Jolla is massive. Read those comments too, very similar stuff that we have gotten on TMO, but those guys working the thread offering actually information in replies. They've even stuck the same issue that fulfillment is not in order. But see the difference how they are communicating about their understandable difficulties.

And just don't look at the comments on the surface, see how the tone evolves in that conversation as they bring the info. Keep that up and they will reap the benefits, because you can literally see how disappointments turn into little wins with information. That's what's great about it - handle a complaint well and it may be even better for you than if there was no complaint.

I guess that is something many of us actually hoped Jolla to be, when they started. Alas, they were not. And I'm not even expecting anywhere near THAT level of detail from Jolla for them to reap, I think, a lot of the same benefit!

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

I'm Finnish.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

It's really funny like some of people here complain that the thread is so long. Does long means automatically bad? It would be shorter if guys like Morpog and few similar to him wouldn't paste some pointless posts with gifs, comments that whole point of them is "thread is too long" or focus on discrediting discussants from opposite side.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Such as...

1.
2.

Fill in the blanks.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

So a quarter of people see need for serious improvement and you seem to dismiss that?

If we count the people who need some improvement, it goes up to 30 vs. 29 saying Jolla needs to be more transparent.

At the moment, more people say Jolla needs to be transparent in that poll, than say they don't.

So, indeed the community has spoken. ;)

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

I'm 40ish.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Nobody needs to be helpful to me, I'm irrelevant. But what would be good, is if Jolla would hear also those voices in the community that say they would do well to open up a bit more in the transparency department.

In that sense, I agree fk_lx's mission is detrimental to that, but then he seems to have calmed it down a bit so maybe there is now room for voices discussing the wider matter. I'm not saying fk_lx's personal grievances don't matter, but the really bigger picture is here how can Jolla and the community best be mutually beneficial, and I think Jolla has lost their way there somewhat.

I'm offering feedback.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

That is funny.

A message that said absolutely nothing about the topic at hand.

Congrats. :)

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

ahhhahhaa :D

When reading those comments I see that people are still bitching out even as the company gives out a tad more info about shipping schedules.

Being "more open" seems not satisfy all people, huh?

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

So you just ignored my Fairphone example?

I can see you are not really interested in discussing the topic, but more interested in fighting a fight.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

I never said transparency was a easy or an instant cure, you can read that even in my message - the parts you simply left out from your quote.

Not have I ever said transparency would satisfy all, but read this comment for example, when a complaint was countered with a personal reply and info:

This is how you turn people around.

Thinking back to the Jolla pre-order thread here on TMO. How many people working that Excel, miffed about the sudden delays and DNA and whatnot, would have appreciated that from Jolla.

No? No extra love for that from Jolla?

I think there would have been plenty of extra love for Jolla.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

You clearly didn't read the disgruntled folks that are complaining about it not being open and transparent enough despite best intentions.

Face it, no matter how clear the communication, you'll have somebody that'll state it's still not enough or it's not how they'll do things. Good thing, they can create their own endeavors and run it as they see fit.

In the end, your link actually satisfies my true point; you can't make every geek happy.

And that's only 1. I asked for 2.

Thanks in advance.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

He gave example of Fairphone. You obviously not reading the posts. It also seems that Fairphone sold the similar amount or even more units than Jolla already.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

And you keep ignoring my point:

You can strike a better balance than Jolla has.

You can make more "geeks happy" than Jolla has.

That's my point. More transparency, better results. That doesn't mean neither full transparency, nor does it mean perfect results.

I read the whole Fairphone comment track. Did you? Including the parts where people turn around and appreciate the info.

You wouldn't have loved it if Jolla were as open with us as Fairphone with that example? No?

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Would I appreciate Jolla being more open? sure
Would I want them shift their time on this instead of other more pressing areas? clearly no

Oh and I seem to have risen on fk_lx's list of top enemys :)

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Indeed Fairphone are doing more than I have suggested Jolla do, transparency-wise.

But that doesn't mean that is necessarily the right balance for Jolla or their business, it is just an example of what could be done.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

Honestly, I don't see the point in making examples out of companies with unknown profit and uncertain future.

Before you jump in and say "but that's the same with Jolla", let me stop you - of course it is, but that's not the point.

You are trying to support your hypothesis, that 'more transparency helps companies (like Jolla) to be successful'. Then I think that only providing an example of a company that was more transparent and also successful is relevant.

Others (including myself) have provided examples of larger (&successful) companies with less transparency and you might argue that 'when those were at the SMB stage, as Jolla is, they were much more open than Jolla and that is the reason of their later success' but then feel free to provide an example of a company that was more open and turned successful later.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

But then would it, really, take so much more time. That's a really good question and I think it probably wouldn't. I think putting out a controlled message might actually even take up more of their time, than some good old fashioned brutal honesty. Those Fairphone guys just seem to "post it as it comes", without thinking too much.

I wonder how long it took for that Jolla guy to formulate the TJC answer there the SIM card holder question was closed carefully tiptoeing around any explanation given. Just telling it like it is, is very quick.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

It took you three pages to produce ONE example when I asked for TWO. Count with me... One, two. It's not that hard.

You have no point really. That example is as flawed as your stance. Those folks were largely not happy. 283 posts, a good percentage were pissed or didn't know of the batches. That's not clear communication by any stretch of the imagination.

Your leap of faith just didn't work for me. And for the record, Jolla will not work in my region as anything more than a 2g phone. Remember that universally operating phone that would work in all regions?

This geek ain't happy. Those geeks you linked to, aren't fully happy either. Even when corrected, educated or otherwise. They're still waiting.

Your example sucked. I'll release you from delivering a second one, it'll probably suck too.

Take care.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

That includes the suggestion that their transparency would somehow be linked to their uncertainty. Fairphone and Jolla both face uncertain futures for a number of reasons. I doubt transparency will make or kill either one of them, but then I have never argued that either.

What I am arguing is transparency would improve community relations and early adopter enthusiasm - and for me it is easy to see how that would be helpful for Jolla at this early stage. It won't make or break their business, bigger things will do that, but it can help or hurt their business depending on how their community relations go.

Are you asking because you are curious or because you believe they don't exist? If not the latter, then the question is pretty pointless.

It seems like you are fixated on examples, rather than pondering the points I am making above. Do you not believe transparency improves community relations? Do you not believe Jolla could do better than they do now in that regard? Do you not believe any company does better?

One guy said here on this thread, no company ever goes into any such detail in public. Has anything changed in this thread after I offered Toyota and now Fairphone as clear examples to the contrary? No. I guess the guy still believes no company ever does that.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

I don't know where you got that from, but it certainly wasn't the point. If I was about to make such claim, I would support it with facts and examples, unlike you did (pun not intended).

I'm asking because I am interested on which basis you are making your claims. It is always nice to talk to someone that doesn't make things up.


By the way, you can't seriously take Toyota as an example, as I mentioned few post beforehand that "companies make such announcements only if they're making a recall, which is not Jolla's case". And then you make an example of a recall...

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

I have offered examples in previous posts, but explained that those experiences are from specific unrelated fields. What I brought in this time is, I guess, the closest comparable operation to Jolla in the world: Fairphone.

And you ignore their exceptional transparency by quickly reading one thread of comments. I guess that really shows how futile it is to offer any examples from the real world, so it is always about shades, not some black/white scenario where either everyone is happy or nobody is.

There are people who are not happy about delays. But is the quality of transparency miles better than that of Jolla? Yes, it is. We can see them doing something many said here is impossible. That's awesome transparency compared to Jolla. Relative to Jolla, that communication is clear as day, if you think back to the TMO thread here on Jolla pre-orders.

Jolla simply had nothing comparable, to the transparency Fairphone are offering. And I see a different image emerging in those comments, I see people turning around in their reactions, appreciating the information. In the long term, I believe that helps their community and thus their business.

As I've maintained all along, it is my opinion.

I have no idea what your point is there.

Of course. But are you really suggesting a person waiting with transparent information is the same as person waiting without? I'm saying there is definitely a difference given two groups of waiting people, one who was kept informed and another that was not, when looking at overall statistics later on. I'll bet you the informed group is overall more happy.

My example only sucked if you haphazardly skimmed the case (which I guess would happen with any example I might provide in detail) and considered customer happiness an on/off issue.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

The point was, back then, that no company would ever discuss such level of detail - it wasn't excluding recalls at all.

As for SIM card holder, I'm still not confident there wasn't a batch that might actually have warranted a recall from Jolla.

It is hard to say when the information is so vague.

Re: Discussing JollaOy strategy
 

And again, I mentioned few posts beforehand, that companies do discuss such level in detail only if there's a recall.

Thanks for raising another point against making such information public - people like yourself would be all over forums, complaining that "Based on the info they've given, that should have definitely make a recall! Look at Toyota, they did not screw customers like Jolla did." :)