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maemo.org - Talk (https://talk.maemo.org/index.php)
-   SailfishOS (https://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=52)
-   -   Jolla at Slush 2014 (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=94157)

szopin 2014-11-19 20:35
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauha (Post 1448191)
I doubt that it will be Wifi only being a phone and I actually need one.

Anyway, you fanbois should try to allow at least bit of criticism. Jolla did screw up their last pre-order shipments big time. Its ok to say so. Try not to have a panick attack if some one points to the fact.
Noone is saying there were no problems, just that they were minor nuisances, rather than the crowd crying 'I ordered earlier, how come I have to wait two days, jolla sucks big time, never again' make them out to be

Tigerroast 2014-11-19 20:37
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaracz (Post 1448192)
Are you sure about that? I mean, theoretically it's possible - but will it be so implemented in Sailfish?
I honestly don't see why they wouldn't implement OpenGL...well, maybe if they really want interoperability with the phone when it comes to native apps, then sure.

That's the only reason I can see for keeping OpenGL ES in the tablet. IMHO, there's a mountain of reasons to move to OpenGL proper, and it'd be head-scratching not to.

Also, it's not theoretical; this is a 64-bit tablet powered by Intel. It's 100% possible.

abyzthomas 2014-11-19 20:39
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
@ 201%. Still going! :)

Update: $764,532. Will it make it a Million Dollar today?

szopin 2014-11-19 20:40
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerroast (Post 1448194)
I honestly don't see why they wouldn't implement OpenGL...well, maybe if they really want interoperability with the phone when it comes to native apps, then sure.

That's the only reason I can see for keeping OpenGL ES in the tablet. IMHO, there's a mountain of reasons to move to OpenGL proper, and it'd be head-scratching not to.

Also, it's not theoretical; this is a 64-bit tablet powered by Intel. It's 100% possible.
So.... if someone does get debian proper on it no need to recompile even??? That would be glorious

Jaracz 2014-11-19 20:46
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerroast (Post 1448194)
I honestly don't see why they wouldn't implement OpenGL...well, maybe if they really want interoperability with the phone when it comes to native apps, then sure.

That's the only reason I can see for keeping OpenGL ES in the tablet. IMHO, there's a mountain of reasons to move to OpenGL proper, and it'd be head-scratching not to.

Also, it's not theoretical; this is a 64-bit tablet powered by Intel. It's 100% possible.
So it sounds really interesting.. At last I could run my programms in C/OpenGL on the tablet :) I don't need a tablet, so I haven't decided yet if I will buy it, but OpenGL is a pro for me indeed...

Best regards,

Jaracz

Tigerroast 2014-11-19 20:47
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1448197)
So.... if someone does get debian proper on it no need to recompile even??? That would be glorious
Nope. Just go through the installation as you would any other computer. You'd need a mouse+kbd though; I don't use Debian, so IDK if it auto-detects the touchscreen or not.

Tigerroast 2014-11-19 20:50
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaracz (Post 1448205)
So it sounds really interesting.. At last I could run my programms in C/OpenGL on the tablet :) I don't need a tablet, so I haven't decided yet if I will buy it, but OpenGL is a pro for me indeed...
OpenGL is always a pro. OpenGL all the things! Since others have confirmed that it has an Intel GPU, I don't think we have anything to worry about.

szopin 2014-11-19 20:53
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerroast (Post 1448206)
Nope. Just go through the installation as you would any other computer. You'd need a mouse+kbd though; I don't use Debian, so IDK if it auto-detects the touchscreen or not.
That's what I meant, add a repo, pkcon/apt-get from their full library, no need for open repos/extras devel, 10k of ppl work on that rather than enthusiast circle

pichlo 2014-11-19 21:21
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerroast (Post 1448206)
Nope. Just go through the installation as you would any other computer. You'd need a mouse+kbd though; I don't use Debian, so IDK if it auto-detects the touchscreen or not.
Before I bought my first N900, I went through a tablet phase. The only one I had was a cheap 7" Android affair from China. It was quite a sorry affair and almost made me lose faith in portable technology altogether that eventually the N900 cured.

BUT... It was easily hackable and some kind soul made a Debian image for it. It ran fine and, to answer your question, detected the touch screen as a mouse, no problem there.

The main problem and the reason I stopped using it was the size. 7" is too big to be portable and too small to use as stationary. So no, thanks, no Jolla tablet for me. I already have a Jolla tablet. It's called JP-1301.

bluefoot 2014-11-19 21:23
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerroast (Post 1448194)
I honestly don't see why they wouldn't implement OpenGL...well, maybe if they really want interoperability with the phone when it comes to native apps, then sure.

That's the only reason I can see for keeping OpenGL ES in the tablet. IMHO, there's a mountain of reasons to move to OpenGL proper, and it'd be head-scratching not to.

Also, it's not theoretical; this is a 64-bit tablet powered by Intel. It's 100% possible.
I dunno what on earth you're talking about. I doubt OpenGL (proper) drivers exist for this chipset for any OS, and they certainly won't for Android. The device will almost certainly use Android display drivers ... so where are you getting this from? Also, of course they HAVE to have cross compatibility with the phone. It's the same OS, with different scaling options / UI. Also, do you seriously think any prospective developer is going to port their OpenGL ES based apps to Sailfish, if Jolla made the barmy decision to switch to OpenGL? Besides, what possible advantage would there be? ES is tailored specifically to the mobile space and to be less complex and more efficient.

How do 64bit or it being Intel have anything to do with this? Address space means nothing. If you think it somehow makes it more powerful, well the CPU side is going to be a lot weaker than any quad core A57 chip (which will predominate by the time it's released) and is similar to a Snapdragon 805 / a bit slower than chips popping up now based on A53 cores, and this is the case even though the Z3580 present in the N1 and (presumably Jolla) is the fastest SKU. As for the PowerVR GPU, it is comparable to the plethora of PowerVR designs in ARM SoCs now.

Also, to all the people who think it will have an Intel in-house GPU ... how? There are no in-house Intel GPU designs for Intel's tablet / phone chips. Nor will there be for the forseeable future.

szopin 2014-11-19 21:34
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluefoot (Post 1448213)
I dunno what on earth you're talking about. I doubt OpenGL (proper) drivers exist for this chipset for any OS, and they certainly won't for Android. The device will almost certainly use Android display drivers ... so where are you getting this from? Also, of course they HAVE to have cross compatibility with the phone. It's the same OS, with different scaling options / UI. Also, do you seriously think any prospective developer is going to port their OpenGL ES based apps to Sailfish, if Jolla made the barmy decision to switch to OpenGL? Besides, what possible advantage would there be? ES is tailored specifically to the mobile space and to be less complex and more efficient.

How do 64bit or it being Intel have anything to do with this? Address space means nothing. If you think it somehow makes it more powerful, well the CPU side is going to be a lot weaker than any quad core A57 chip (which will predominate by the time it's released) and is similar to a Snapdragon 805 / a bit slower than chips popping up now based on A53 cores, and this is the case even though the Z3580 present in the N1 and (presumably Jolla) is the fastest SKU. As for the PowerVR GPU, it is comparable to the plethora of PowerVR designs in ARM SoCs now.

Also, to all the people who think it will have an Intel in-house GPU ... how? There are no in-house Intel GPU designs for Intel's tablet / phone chips. Nor will there be for the forseeable future.
switch to openGL??? GLES is a subset of GL last time I heard, should be oob

szopin 2014-11-19 21:36
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1448212)
Before I bought my first N900, I went through a tablet phase. The only one I had was a cheap 7" Android affair from China. It was quite a sorry affair and almost made me lose faith in portable technology altogether that eventually the N900 cured.

BUT... It was easily hackable and some kind soul made a Debian image for it. It ran fine and, to answer your question, detected the touch screen as a mouse, no problem there.

The main problem and the reason I stopped using it was the size. 7" is too big to be portable and too small to use as stationary. So no, thanks, no Jolla tablet for me. I already have a Jolla tablet. It's called JP-1301.
QtCreator will be much more pleasant on 8 inches (also will kick the argument: X on phone is unusable)

pichlo 2014-11-19 21:42
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1448216)
QtCreator will be much more pleasant on 8 inches
but less pleasant than on 19 inches, with a proper keyboard and mouse. Maybe I would find some use for the middle ground if I spent a lot of time on the train. But I don't.

szopin 2014-11-19 21:51
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1448219)
but less pleasant than on 19 inches, with a proper keyboard and mouse. Maybe I would find some use for the middle ground if I spent a lot of time on the train. But I don't.
Me neither, with tohkbd2 I hope my bus journeys will resume their n900 glory of finding cool things to recompile, with whole debian library available this could be moot (not that I would complain, this would finally take over 1# of proper mobile linux), not sure if tablet is usable in crowded environment. Still not sure if will have a lot of use for it, but Stskeeps comments here seem to confirm they are/were on less hectic schedule this time unlike the novator scenario, so I hope they will get pro-hacker deal (and maybe even proper drivers, even if they will not use them in their released product)

tmi 2014-11-19 22:00
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by abyzthomas (Post 1448195)
Will it make it a Million Dollar today?
It won't make ONE MILLION DOLLARS *raises pinky to mouth* unless Jolla adds another perk or people somehow start contributing way more than $224 per person.

Last I checked there were only 410 yet to claim and 410 x $224 = $91840. That added with the total collected sum of $800 000+ won't even reach $900 000.

szopin 2014-11-19 22:03
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmi (Post 1448225)
It won't make ONE MILLION DOLLARS *raises pinky to mouth* unless Jolla adds another perk or people somehow start contributing way more than $224 per person.

Last I checked there were only 410 yet to claim and 410 x $224 = $91840. That added with the total collected sum of $800 000+ won't even reach $900 000.
haha, was worried about this too with the first two batches, they are keeping eye on it, and when the time comes another 2k(4k?) batch will be released (at least that happened last time when 199$ options were almost up)

shmerl 2014-11-19 22:05
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
So, according to Stskeeps, KMS Intel driver and Mesa aren't mature enough to support real workload with Wayland (performance wise). What exactly is lacking there? Certain OpenGL extensions, or some specific features? Or it's simply not written with enough optimization?

nodevel 2014-11-19 22:16
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
I hope they introduce a "Combo" perk:
Jolla Tablet + Phone

It might need some adjustments on countries' availability, but it would certainly extend the number of Jolla users, as people will buy anything if it's crowdfunded ;)

Copernicus 2014-11-19 22:24
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmi (Post 1448225)
It won't make ONE MILLION DOLLARS *raises pinky to mouth* unless Jolla adds another perk or people somehow start contributing way more than $224 per person.

Last I checked there were only 410 yet to claim and 410 x $224 = $91840. That added with the total collected sum of $800 000+ won't even reach $900 000.
If I'm reading this right, the Indiegogo "campaign" will last until December 9th. I don't see them facing any other limitation to sales. Presumably, they will continue to keep adding more batches of perks until they run out of time...

abyzthomas 2014-11-19 22:48
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Copernicus (Post 1448236)
If I'm reading this right, the Indiegogo "campaign" will last until December 9th. I don't see them facing any other limitation to sales. Presumably, they will continue to keep adding more batches of perks until they run out of time...
Well, they would want to make sure they can deliver all of them by May 2015 or adjust the expected delivery date as needed for new batches.

Bundyo 2014-11-19 22:57
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wicket (Post 1448134)
jolla.com/tablet specifies 2GB DDR3L-RS RAM.
Moorefield only seems to support LPDDR3. Baytrail Z3735 and Z3740D support DDR3L-RS.

There's still hope. :)
Seems it can be any CPU from the Z37xx line that has a 64bit memory channel (or 2x 32bit). The ones with 1 32bit channel only support 1GB of RAM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...22_.2822_nm.29

If we don't count the RAM type, the list also includes Z3560 with PowerVR G6430.
While the GPU is not OSS friendly, Z3560 does have some nice power saving technologies, that would help the rather small batery:
http://ark.intel.com/products/81194/...up-to-1_83-GHz

shmerl 2014-11-19 23:22
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
@Bundyo: It was confirmed that it's not PowerVR.

shmerl 2014-11-20 01:07
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
UPDATE: However, note that there is also this (see FAQ):

Quote:
Can the tablet features or specifications change before delivery?

As in any crowdfunding campaign, changes are possible. We reserve the right to make changes in described features, specifications, and delivery date estimations, and to introduce software features and functionality at a later date.

aegis 2014-11-20 02:18
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
The Reg are reporting it as having an Atom 3700 series SoC according to Intel.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/11/19/jolla_tablet/

bluefoot 2014-11-20 03:59
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegis (Post 1448275)
The Reg are reporting it as having an Atom 3700 series SoC according to Intel.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/11/19/jolla_tablet/
Definitely a good thing it's not the more powerful Z3580 as per the Nokia N1. With the smaller battery, and what I imagine will be Sailfish's continuing foibles, I suspect it'd run out of juice rather quickly.

A Z37xx at 1.8Ghz should lay somewhere between a Snapdragon 800 and 801 in CPU performance ... therefore probably some way behind mid range ARM quads as of Q2 '15.

aegis 2014-11-20 04:03
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
You must have an entire shelf full of half empty glasses bluefoot!

gerbick 2014-11-20 05:49
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Bought in... missed the first two hauls, got into the third.

Bundyo 2014-11-20 05:58
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluefoot (Post 1448280)
Definitely a good thing it's not the more powerful Z3580 as per the Nokia N1. With the smaller battery, and what I imagine will be Sailfish's continuing foibles, I suspect it'd run out of juice rather quickly.

A Z37xx at 1.8Ghz should lay somewhere between a Snapdragon 800 and 801 in CPU performance ... therefore probably some way behind mid range ARM quads as of Q2 '15.
The more powerful Z35xx have better power saving features and idle states ;) The ball point is the same, so no gain there.

Jordi 2014-11-20 06:15
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
I ordered 2 of them! There are too many (aging) iPads at home, it's time to have something modern and hopefully more open.

minimos 2014-11-20 06:42
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 1448177)
A different aspect of the topic of this thread:

Are the slides of Marc's presentation available somewhere? I thought they were a really nice overview if Jolla so far.
I'll be interested as well. Slush org has released videos for several presentations, but not the one from Marc.

shmerl 2014-11-20 07:17
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
I posted a proposal to use Cherry Trail SoC with Broadwell GPU (personally I don't mind if that means delaying the tablet, but those chips should arrive sometime in 2015).

mrsellout 2014-11-20 07:25
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Last chance for the $204 perk, 11 left.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/j...ed-tablet#home

Leinad 2014-11-20 08:57
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmi (Post 1448225)
It won't make ONE MILLION DOLLARS *raises pinky to mouth* unless Jolla adds another perk or people somehow start contributing way more than $224 per person.

Last I checked there were only 410 yet to claim and 410 x $224 = $91840. That added with the total collected sum of $800 000+ won't even reach $900 000.
see attachment :)
they will reach 1.000.000 before the end of the day...
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/j...sourced-tablet

tissot 2014-11-20 08:58
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Anybody seen a pic of the browser used on Sailfish 2.0?
Browser on Jolla phone was atrocious compared to competition. Hopefully they have something totally new out there.

aegis 2014-11-20 09:20
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tissot (Post 1448302)
Anybody seen a pic of the browser used on Sailfish 2.0?
Browser on Jolla phone was atrocious compared to competition. Hopefully they have something totally new out there.
What is 'atrocious' about Jolla's browser?

Apart from cut and paste from non entry areas and the offset link issue fixed in the last update, it seems functional enough.

nodevel 2014-11-20 09:48
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegis (Post 1448305)
What is 'atrocious' about Jolla's browser?

Apart from cut and paste from non entry areas and the offset link issue fixed in the last update, it seems functional enough.
Copy & Paste works fine with some patches from OpenRepos.

I also find the official browser quite good (the choice of Gecko is very welcomed) - the only things that bug me are:
  • some videos play distorted
  • it cuts out few seconds at the end of a video (you hear only sound) - both these two are not such a big deal, though, I just use a Youtube app for playing videos
  • slow tab switching
  • sometimes the page changes under your finger and you click somewhere you didn't want to

Other than that, I enjoy using it. I agree that a good browser is crucial on a tablet - take an example of HP Touchpad, but Jolla's browser is already miles ahead of it.

andreas1 2014-11-20 10:04
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegis (Post 1448305)
What is 'atrocious' about Jolla's browser?

Apart from cut and paste from non entry areas and the offset link issue fixed in the last update, it seems functional enough.
yeah, good basic browser, though ugly as hell (imo - haha)

tmi 2014-11-20 10:29
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leinad (Post 1448301)
see attachment :)
they will reach 1.000.000 before the end of the day...
Sure :)
"...unless Jolla adds another perk..." which they did!
(it was basically given they would, but none the less)

The contributions seem still to be piling up nicely.

mscion 2014-11-20 12:10
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Now at about $923,000 That's about $20,000 in 3 hours. If this rate stays the same thats about 12 hours more to go. Perhaps things will pick up as morning breaks in the US. Btw, would anyone know the geographical breakdown of where the donations are coming from? That is, the numbers and amounts from each country.

vistaus 2014-11-20 12:33
Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shmerl (Post 1448143)
Yep, since it means native Wayland, no libhybris and Android blobs.
Yup, big selling point. 'Cause the average tablet user cares about that. #not It's not only tech people who pre-order it on IndieGogo.


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