Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

Alright, it's getting a little loud in here. There's no need for all that noise, thank you very much.

The underlined bit, that's a very strong claim to make. You're gonna need to expound upon that. I see nothing that would make filesystems like NTFS, ext4, or Btrfs "unsuitable" for solid-state devices.

Every sense? In that case, you're half-right.

"Unofficial" support would mean that the hardware still works, but with a different kind of format, such as the 64GB uSD cards people got to work on their handsets. Of course, Jolla wouldn't advertize it as such, but that's what makes it "unofficially" supported. It only works with unofficial formats.

We already know that.

They wouldn't.

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

I suspect @aegis meant for any flash memory, not necessarily for soild state drives (which also use flash like SD cards). Since flash is ruined faster by excessive writes, it makes sense for filesystem targeted for flash storage to optimize writes accordingly. Most of the filesystems out there don't care about this issue (that's what F2FS is trying to improve actually).

SSD are actually used in modern cameras which support storing raw video.

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

Definitely a far more helpful response than talking down my "dogmatic nonsense." Thank you.

Btrfs has optimizations for reducing unnecessary read+writes (among others) already. The problem's lack of interoperability with Windows or Mac. Does F2FS share this same problem?

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

Apparently BTRFS has some optimizations for SSD at least according to this:
https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index....zed_for_SSD.3F

F2FS only announced that driver for Windows will be released, but I didn't hear anything about it so far. And another problem is how soon will camera manufacturers update their firmware to support F2FS. It still looks like a while since filesystem wasn't even declared stable yet (BTRFS wasn't either for that matter).

So happy future with everyone having F2FS out of the box is really not here yet. But it doesn't mean individuals can't use it already.

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

Of course you don't have to. But if you don't, there's a fair chance your card will be slower than it could be and will wear out faster than it's supposed to. There's always The Right Thing™ to do... and things that may work so-so.

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

It was my understanding that it's practically impossible to build a phone or a tablet without buying licenses for closed, patented technology. It's not that exFAT would be the first or the only one. What I don't understand is why it gets this attention... If this were a serious issue, we'd have to ask Jolla which patents are used in the basic version of the tablet (without stretch goals) ans remove all of them (because they're payed with crowdfunded money.)

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

Well, it is a stretch goal in a crowdfunding campaign. "Come on, folks! Spend your money on this risky startup effort! If you buy now, we'll give your money to Microsoft to purchase a license! Isn't that worth the risk?"

Doesn't make me feel very enthusiastic to open my wallet. :)

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

So Bluetooth should also be banned from Jolla Tablet ? Like some asian tablets to avoid paying Bluetooth licenses, Bluetooth Compliance and Certification, etc ?

As an Sailfish user and developer, I want the Jolla Tablet as much popular as possible. Including the maximum compatibility with microSD sizes and formats.

Or else the first review of the Jolla Tablet will negative. Do we want it ?

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

I don't get why open source fans always need to be that extremely fundamentalism......

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

Why do I need to expound on it?

The simple answer is that the SDxc standard mandates ExFAT and that's what Jolla need to support. That above all else makes them unsuitable.

I'm sure there are some fantastic, technical marvels that are much better than ExFAT, technically, but we have to always go back to 'the standard' and what 99.9% of people expect of a card with 'SDxc' written on it and what Jolla are allowed to claim.

Also, the irony of suggesting Microsoft's NTFS as an alternative to Microsoft's ExFAT is hilarious.

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

Agreed! My guess is that folks think they can get away without licensing NTFS. I gotta say, using someone's patented technology without licensing it is definitely worse than paying for the license in the first place...

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

So you don't want money from a crowdfunding campaign invested into licenses for patents and closed technology?

I'd prefer that, too. But I don't think the product we'd get in the end would be much fun or very useful.

What I'm saying is that if you reject ExFAT (and there are good and valid reasons to do so), you also have to reject any other patented technology in the tablet and in the Jolla phone that Jolla is paying license fees for. There's nothing that makes ExFAT special in this area. If you paid for the tablet already, before the strech goal were introduced, you paid licensing fees. All of us did when we bought the phone or pre-ordered in 2013. So what's is all about now?

I cannot help but assume that this whole uprise was more of an emotional outburst than a thought-out concern.

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

:)

Not all of them. I find I'm usually more extreme than others when it comes to openness and freedom. I'm usually agree with Richard Stallman. I refuse Facebook, Skype and WhatsApp because they're closed and proprietary. (How many of the anti-ExFat-folks use these services?) I'm using GNU/Linux on my PCs and phones (and I insist on calling it GNU/Linux)...

... but there's a point when you have to accept a reality outside your own little universe, even if you don't like it. Part of this reality is that people don't give a dime on what I think is correct. Part of this reality is that I've actually seen the frustration of two Jolla phone users because their SDXC-cards didn't work.

The Jolla phone as it is (and the tablet as it's planned) still lets me be as fundamentalistic as it gets in todays market. I can pay the price of letting my two friends using their ExFAT-SDXC cards if they really want to. I'm not too proud, I don't think my concerns about freedom are more important than their need to exchange data using the SD card.

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

not sure n sweden...

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

I was really excited about the Jolla tablet until this came to light. No mention what-so-ever regarding tablet speakers. It appears that the Jolla tablet is a headphones only device, which is unfortunately a deal-breaker for me. I posed the question to Jolla support and received the following response:

"At this time we have no additional information regarding the speakers/audio."

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

Well, I think that not giving it any speakers would would be a very very stupid think to do, so I doubt that. But it is indeed a good idea to double check & try to get a concrete answer! :)

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

Agreed... a tablet without speakers wouldn't make much sense. I just found it rather odd that there is no mention of speakers at all... or perhaps it's just a given. I followed up with Jolla for a more direct yes/no answer and they are yet to reply.

However when drawing comparisons it could work to Jolla's benefit to be clear, whereas at least the N1 is concrete about the audio/speaker spec:

Audio
High Quality Discrete Audio Codec, Wolfson
WM8958E, independent audio codec

Speakers
Two 0.5 W stereo speakers
90 dB with less than 10% total harmonic distortion (THD)

Perhaps the Jolla tablet doesn't compare in this regard, but still maybe a good idea for them to chuck "speakers" on the chart.

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

I think most probably the concrete type of speakers have not yet been decided, so that can't yet say which speaker type and parameters will it have. On the other hand they definitely should be able to say that it has speakers. :)

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

I also backed Jolla in indigogo, even i'm not part any fundamentalist Linux religion. I now realize i'm minority :( I use many platforms and devices and i like open devices, and i also want my devices full working order.

I did down-vote the "please cripple Jolla" petition here https://together.jolla.com/question/...tent-licenses/

If Jolla decide that it does not support normal memory cards i think it shoots itself to the foot. Jolla is not a big company, and it's in the position not to bully normal users who backed Jolla thinking it is normal fully working tablet and there is working card slot as seen in specs in indiegogo page.

Memory-card slot in tablet, but making customers buy a separate license to use it is just as bad bullying.

I wanted to support Jolla as soon i heard they have Tablet coming, but first thing that i checked was if they had memory card slot in tablet, because tablet without a memorycard is pretty much useless. More so when there is only 32GB internal memory.

Sorry for my bad english, i don't use it very often. Just wanted to register here and say what i think.

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

Then think again. It gets attention because it was added post factum as a stretch goal when most already made their decision to support the campaign. That's why. Why should money be wasted on exFAT if for example they can be used to improve the browser or any other part of Sailfish which does not involve patent encumbered or closed stuff and still needs a lot of improvement? If paying for exFAT patent lock-in would have been explicitly included in the funding sum from the start, some wouldn't have contributed to begin with for instance.

And all those claims that exFAT is absolutely needed and so on are false. It might be needed for some, and completely not needed for others.

Was it added as a stretch goal?

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

It seems to be a topic in the tablet spec thread on together.jolla.com so maybe the info is forthcoming. :)

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

@shmerl has a valid point here and I fully agree with it.
Some people might find it useful to have extfat even as I do not find it useful. I would not mind if had been there in the beginning, as a "baked-in" cost of the original design.

However, when given as an extra perk, as an option to be included or not then I want to voice my opinion on whether it is useful, or whether some another goal could be reached instead of it;

I can think lots of HW related goals that would be more useful; Qi charging, better environment sealing, USB-C connector, etc etc.

As for SW related goals; well, without knowing what SFOS2 includes it is difficult to formulate an opinion on it.
However, I'd rather see HW additions than SW or Licensing additions for the simple reason that the latter can always be updated later but the former is there to stay when the device has been made.

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

The prototype has 2 speakers http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7c9f4244.jpg
More pictures http://www.gadgetero.net/2014/11/gad...lush-2014.html

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

just judging from pictures isn't always the best: Jolla Phone only has one speaker. When I saw the first pictures I thought there would be two.

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

What an utterly specious argument.

The people who paid for their tablet before the stretch goals were added are getting nothing less than they had before. In fact they're getting SDxc support for free. They don't *have* to use it and they've not paid for it.

How on earth can you turn that into a minus?

That's your opinion. I would rather have SDxc support and exFAT since I'd like to transfer files bigger than 4GB to my tablet/phone.

It's not like there aren't loads of other patent encumbered or licenced stuff you've ALSO paid for already in the original tablet price but they didn't tell you about that they could have not spent money on them and instead improved the browser.

I'd also guess the amount of actual programmer time on adding ExFAT is a lot less than improving the browser. Money probably isn't the problem with improving the browser - resources are. ExFAT is a quick win for the money.

Personally I've got very few complaints about the browser, especially after the last update which fixed the link offset issue and improved rendering speed immensely. Cut&Paste outside of text areas is about the only complaint and that's coming.

So given the choice of a browser that already works well or SDxc cards that aren't supported well, I'll take the latter rather than having to reformat to FAT32 with it's limitations.


Really? why? It's not costing them anything extra and they were happy to pay H.264 licencing, JPEG, MPEG and who knows what licencing already. I can't imagine even the most ardent of open source advocate NOT buying something because it supports ExFAT.

Am I repeating myself? The standard says ExFAT, therefore it's 100% absolutely necessary if you want to claim SDxc card support.

If you want to run your own non-standard filesystem on your cards then that is up to you but for the rest of us that want it to just work everywhere, ExFAT it is.

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

Now when will people start complaining that alien dalvik is included from the get go and not purchasable as an extra, because you know MS is getting money from android

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

They are adding something which is a waste of resources (for a significant number of backers). Even more than that, while you might consider it useful, others consider in not just wasteful, but harmful.

Imagine there would be a crowdfunding project for an ecological car, and after it's already funded they'd add a stretch goal that adds a booster which speeds it up while adding poisonous pollution. Yeah, it's "useful" for some but completely wrong for others who supported that project because of its nature.

I'm OK with Alien Dalvik being a paid add-on. I'm not going to use it anyway.

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

I like the browser too, it is pretty fast on SBJ.

[nitpick]
However, the "link offset issue" sure has not been fixed yet in 1.1.0.39 Uitukka, it still needs the small-pan-after-zoom or you're sure to hit a random link instead of the one you're aiming for.

OTOH, copy&paste outside textboxex works perfectly with the @coderus patch, no problem there.
[/nitpick]


Agreed there, no need to invest in the browser development more than is done currently. Besides, it is open source so you're welcome to twiddle with it yourself...

However again, why are you mixing in FAT32 again?? I have no desire whatsoever to use either FAT32 or exFAT on my devices since ext2/ext4 work so well. Also btrfs if you are willing to hand out the FS overhead, otherwice it is the optimal choice of course.
Those give you maximum filesize of 2TB or 16TB which ought to be enough for most of your needs??

And hey, remember, I'm the guy who added exFAT support to N9 kernel so when I am talking about this I know what I'm about here. :)


I would not be as strict as not buying it because of a FS support I don't need but I am not going to say there aren't people around who would. It takes all kinds, you see.


Important for markedroids, sure. :p

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

Exactly!
However I'm okay with it since you are able to select whether install it or not.
(and I do recommend not installing it. Just on principle.)

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

You will most likely be able to uninstall exFAT support. The problem is this is a kickstarter/IGG campaign, not pick-and-choose what you want. Noone is asking you if you would like to throw away the camera and a bit lower RAM and pay 150 for it, because you plan to not use the whole lot and rarely take pictures. It's a package, if you don't want to use some parts, great, others will. I would understand this whole debacle if they suddenly raised the price by 3$ or something, without asking, but they did not. In the price you agreed to pay you will have an extra, throw it away if you like

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

Bad extra to which we did not agree to when we were paying. I think that was already clearly explained. Throwing it away doesn't remove the problem (see the pollution analogy above).

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

Then don't use it. Make all your friends reformat their cards, because it is the right thing to do, don't force your extremist FOSS views on a company that depends on the usability of their device (by the masses)

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

Exactly.

I was just commenting that I'm okay with some people having AD even when I do not use it or want it. OTOH, if it was offered as a perk in a similar way than exFAT support is being done, I would be against it too.

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

Do you suggest me to request a refund? It's not about use or it not use it. It's about supporting something negative with crowdfunding money and such goal being set after money were already paid.

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

If pkcon remove is so hard for you to execute, probably. Just explain this:
Alien Dalvik - OK in your book, because you will not use it, Jolla still pays MS tax (or the AD guys, whatever)
exFAT - not OK, because you will not use it, Jolla pays again MS tax

What's the difference? Jolla has no app ecosystem so has to rely on something that pays MS tax = OK. Jolla has no patented file system that is used by the most of the world, has to pay MS tax = not OK

Where's the logic in that?

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

I have restrained myself from this discussion until now, but it's starting look more and more ridiculous.

First, this is crowdfunding - you did not pay for anything: you contributed money and you may or may not receive a tablet.

Second, it has been stated from the beginning that things may change - no specs you see are necessarily final. Even in the video, Marc said it is "just a dream/plan". There is a difference that we know that Jolla can deliver a product, but since it is crowdfunding, it may not even have any MicroSD slot in the end.


I was always the first to stand up against pushing proprietary standards and even more against the ones being pushed by Microsoft. Am I happy to contibute to MS? No. But if I was buying a 100% (actually, not 100%) open product, I would go for Neo900. I want a device I can recommend to any of my non-technical friends and it will just work, while not restricting the hackability for myself.

Jolla had already promised to bring 128GB cards, so I don't know what this discussion is about. Once it reaches 1,500,000, they need to go for ExFAT, because if they didn't, they would have to tell all the customers that it does not support 128GB cards as was promised. Any further discussion is pointless.

I had no idea the SDXC situation was so dirty and I am not at all happy about it (I will not buy SDXC cards in any foreseeable future, not to support the situation further), but I don't expect Jolla to shoot themselves in the foot by 1) not keeping the promise 2) not supporting something (almost) everyone else does.

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

Since neo900 and its cost are quite astronomical considering spec sheet, yet still there are people willing to shell out cash for it, maybe suggest to Jolla to make another campaign for fully free, fully open, fully MS-less (if such thing is even possible) tablet that will cost 1000 euro? 3-4x the normal price seems fair (then again neo900 specs were few years old from the start), probably not quad core, but for some people this would be the tablet of their dreams. Jolla could skip libhybris as performance is not important for people willing to buy open stuff, maybe even RMS will chip in? They would need 4x less people to reach their goal and in the future kill libhybris fully when intel proves itself in SoC space (which they still have to do IIRC)

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

I'm not going to use Alien Dalvik.

exFAT isn't there by default. Adding it (and with crowdfuding money with that) is something I don't like at all. Why some people have hard time understanding a problem with adding a controversial stretch goal in the middle of the campaign? That's the matter at hand, regardless of exFAT specifics even. And what's ridiculous is claiming that it's absolutely necessary. It's clearly very controversial and not universally wanted feature. Jolla can come up with stretch goals about features which aren't controversial and actually useful for most backers.

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

Will exFAT support being decided in tutorial/first run wizard like AD fix it for you? You will be able to not click on that: 'Yes, please give me normal SD card support' and the filthy MS package will not be installed, will that do? Since they managed just that with AD, pretty sure they can offer same opt-in functionality with exFAT

Re: Jolla at Slush 2014
 

Acceptable approach was proposed in the request on TJC already. I.e. an option for those who need exFAT to buy it as a paid add-on.