Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Same here. I was dissapointed to see the 3 service modem they introduced was just a USB device, rather than bluetooth. Unfortunately the 770 doesn't have a useful one of those.
Maybe I should go for one of those solid state asus linux machines ?

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Not true - 3 have introduced a £10/month/1GB USB Mobile Broadband service, but they have also introduced a £10/month/1GB laptop add-on for handsets (last but one item listed - the last being £15/month/3GB laptop data access for handsets).

At the moment it's a toss up whether I switch to 3 (voice+£10/month data) or T-Mobile (voice + £7.50/month data [due to a special offer £5/month reduction]) - the only issue right now is which network offers the N95 8GB first! :)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Excelent - thanks, I hadn't spotted that one. Last time I looked I am sure it was closer to £30!
My choice is fairly clear as I have been with 3 for a year and got a £10/month loyalty reduction, so I got a new n73 + 750 mins/ 500 text/ 512Mb data/ 50 min video for £20/month on 12 month contract, and I sold the previous n73 for £130 on ebay, so it works out even better!

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I'm not sure why the main point is being missed.

I responded specifically to Milhouse's post about IT guys dismissing the N800 and drooling over the iPhone. My point is that the N800 can be used in ways to support IT personnel that the iPhone can't. If that's not clear, well, I'm not sure how to fix it...

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I never once said that, Mil. it's not even implied.

Again: my point was highly specific to your tale of IT guys blowing off the N800 and going nuts over the iPhone. Personally I think the issues we're going over again have been done to death, and many of the anti-N800 arguments are beyond disingenuous.

It's funny how some people think the N800 should be exactly like the later-released iPhone or else it's hyperbolically dismissed as useless. And yet, interestingly enough, a parallel situation has existed for years without problems for the non-Apple product: Mac vs PCs. Mac fans arrogantly deride Windows (in some ways rightfully so) and preach as if Windows should just die. And yet-- which OS, warts and all, enjoys the lion's share of the market?

I rest my case.

In the context of this discussion, the iPhone is the Mac and the N800 is the PC with a more conventional OS. Is the baby Mac glossier, prettier, quicker and cooler? Yep. So is its elder, bigger sibling. Has the Mac defeated the uglier, clumsier, uncool PC with Windows? Not even close. Beta was also superior to VHS. So what happened to it? In the end, didn't consumers choose vanilla over exotic chocolate?

Karel made a poignant observation that is lost in the Apple-worshipping noise here. At the end of the day, power-of-use will trump ease-of-use. Open will beat closed. Apple produces a tiny spread of SKUs compared to its new competitors and they have long shown that they intend to keep their systems as proprietary as possible. So how much of the global computing market has that philosophy allowed them to own? Is Gates crying "uncle" to Jobs yet?

Again, I rest my case.

Just watch.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

True, you didn't. But then who are Nokia targetting with the current NIT? It's certainly not my homemaker Mum, my postman brother, my 13 year old kid brother, or my executive wife. It's simply not appealing to the general public, only to technically minded people.

As for the Mac/PC comparison, I'll just say this:

• One device is walking off the shelves, the other is not.
• One device is gorgeous to look at and use, the other is not.
• One device is closed water-tight, the other is not.
• One device receives rave reviews, the other is panned.

Given the above, I'm not so sure that open does beat closed, or that power-of-use beats ease-of-use, or vanilla beats exotic chocolate. None of that *REALLY* matters in the cold light of day.

The general public are saying you're wrong, and I'm with them. The numbers don't lie.

And if Nokia release the next device with similar software and UI to that which we have today, I dread to think how harsh the reviews for the new device will be because every reviewer will, to a man, compare it to the iPhone. It's inevitable, it will happen - I'll put money on it. And I'm Scottish.

Unfortunately though, I'll still buy the new Nokia N-whatever-it-is. Sigh... ;)

I know you say wait, to have patience, but until I see evidence of something that comes close to (or improves on) that offered by Apple, and addresses the shortcomings of the current firmware (in EVERY area - which is a big ask) I'll have trouble allaying my fears for the future of these lovely Nokia devices! I'm sure Nokia will continue to pump more money into this little research project, however the next device has to be seen to compete with Apple products (the new market leader in mobile computing/web surfing based on press coverage and sheer lust factor) or the existing market will dwindle yet further, until there is only Texrat left. :D And maybe me, but probably not. :)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

You're still assuming the past controls the future, Mil, and that the status quo won't change.

So far pretty much every person taking such a stance on just about anything winds up wrong sooner or later. ;)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Why compare the I"PHONE" to an InternetTablet which is clearly not a phone. Just an addition to your phone. They can compare the next big Nokia N Series phone to the IPhone.

Oh and in saying Mac vs PC you mean Mac vs Windows right? (I'm a Linux-only user.) There is some great stuff happening in KDE4. And there are nice looking PCs/laptops too. Sony makes some sweet laptops.

The IT's GUI will improve. Actually I don't think there is much to improve. I think they should focus on their apps. Make them more solid. Adding some eyecandy in there gtkengine would be nice but I can live without moving stuff. (Btw i think the Ipod touch's cover-fold-browse thing is ridiculous. UKMP's cover browser is much better.)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Really? I think there is. Some more basic thought given to the function of a small screen and operating with a stylus.
The keyboard needs a handedness setting somewhere (the amount of times I select a word from the list because I use the space bar on the left), menus don't need a scroll option on the side you don't need to scroll.
The widgets shouldn't emulate a linux desktop, but should be thought about in the context of what they are there for

not too fussed about eye-candy. Certainly not for its own sake, only if it helps things.

Well, I love the coverflow view if that is what you mean, it makes it great to pick an album (and no, it wasn't written by apple). As to whether UKMPs cover browser is better I will take your word for it, as I have never managed to see a cover in there, and as everytime I used it I had to reset my 770, I don't use the 770 for (non-internet) music.

No, I don't really think that nokia should put too much effort in trying to be a great music player, they should put the effort in trying to be a good internet tablet, and improve the internet experience.

I still think the whole iPod/nokia thing is a bit odd. I have both and am happy with both.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I attached an image of how ukmp looks on my N800. Of course kinetic scrolling if you have more albums than the screen is big.

About the keyboard. I'm actually ok with it. I can type really fast on it. (I only use the thumbkeyboard) I never use the word completion feature. But of course I'm not everyone and Nokia could probably improve there.

About the stylus. I almost never use it. Only if I have to click something really tiny in the webbrowser.

About the widgets and stuff. Sometimes kinetic scrolling would be nice (RSS and webbrowser) I hope Nokia does this soon. I'm not 100% satisfied with the UI. But i'm ok with it. The only major showstopper is a missing organizer by Nokia. But they are developing something.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

What if Apple were to bring out an iPod Internet Tablet (iNewton or whatever) where would that leave us I wonder?

My guess is that Texrat would be here replying to his own posts.

If Texrat’s analogy with the early days of PC’s is correct that it will be just a matter of time before Apple joins the fray. And the only reason we are have this particular thread is because Apple has set an overwhelmingly desirable standard. Just imagine an iTablet that is Open Source.

The next 6 months will see big changes and Nokia will have to shape up in the face of considerable competition from MID’s. Let’s see how it fares. Certainly having the field all to itself is not conducive to bringing out the best it can do.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I just can't see this happening. They say the iPhone has an advanced webbrowser and that you don't need a bigger screen. It's fine the way it is. Marketingwise it would be a huge mistake to first tell people the iPhone is good enough for webbrowsing and then release an Internettablet.

Then Apple and OpenSource? Did you see what they did to the iPhone? I just don't think so...

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Apple iPhone announcement coming soon? Offline support for third-party web-apps?

Open source alone will not sell Nokia Internet Tablets, it's just a nice to have.

A fully fledged SDK on the iPhone (open or closed, it makes no difference in the long run) would grab a lot of developer attention, both community and commercial, simply based on the number of units sold if nothing else. Heck, I'm already impressed by the level of developer activity on the iPhone despite the complete lack of developer support from Apple, imagine what would happen if an SDK appeared.

We all bang the open source drum, yet people develop for Apple Macs because there is a growing market, and they'll do the same for iPhone/Touch devices. It's about getting applications out there, in use and perhaps making some money too. Open source is great, but nobody will freely develop for an open source device that has a global market penetration which is a tiny fraction of the iPhone or Touch.

The development ecosystem of the Nokia Internet Tablets needs to grow significantly, and this will only be achieved by appealing to more and varied buyers in the first place. Perhaps Intel MIDs will help Nokia here as they share a common base.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

There are people developing freely for Openmoko. And there are/will be people developing for Maemo and for Ubuntu Mobile without payment just for fun.

I agree. Intels MIDs will bring more developers and hopefully some new outstanding applications. Today we have applications for almost anything for the N800. But these apps are often old versions or lack features to equal software.

And I don't think 3rd party offline webapps will be the stuff most people want on there iPhones. There are some kind of apps that can be done in ajax. But for some other sort of apps ajax isn't good enough.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I don't completely agree with the Windows vs Mac (Actually it's either MS vs Apple or Windows vs MacOS) argument.

I think the single major reason that people are still picking up Windows nowadays is because people have to conform to past dependency that has been instilled by Microsoft into our... world (really). Most people need windows to fully (100%) interoperate with their peers and counterparts (read: business partners, friends, clients, suppliers, developers, etc) due to the massive market dominance of MS in the past. People don't buy Windows because it has crappier interface than Apple.

Linux and The Nokia IT certainly doesn't have the market dominance that MS has. In fact it's pretty close in the opposite end of the situation being a minority in terms of file applications and data files compatibility and user interface familiarty.

Btw if you don't understand the above comment about 'needing MS compatibility', consider yourself lucky. Go to any real business with more than 100 computers and ask to talk to their admin. Ask him whether he has migrated them to Linux or not. Why not. If they have, ask him whether he is happy with the move, what kind of problems are they facing now.

For most of the world that is under MS' "handcuffs", the promise of 'real standards' and 'open sourced projects' is a godsend. Heavenly design. We all wish this thing really comes through, that opensource products (hardware, software, standard, whatever) can compete and beat their closed-sourced counterparts. (Please note that I'm not talking about free vs commercial).

The worst thing that could happen in the opensource world is if the people get closed-minded. What an irony indeed. If there is something good from closed-sourced products that half of the world is raving about, please for whatever's-holy-sake, don't get self-righteous and shoot it down just because it's not opensource\linux.

LEARN FROM IT. COPY WHAT'S GOOD FROM IT & REIMPLEMENT IT YOUR WAY.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I'm very wary of 100% community developed projects without financial incentives. A lot of them don't have the consistency and continuity that 'serious users' (including businesses) need. Even on a platform that is committed to 100% fun, the Gamepark gp2x opensource linux based gaming device, the apps are very inconsistent in their stabitliy, features and performance.

I don't mind the developers of the programs that I use have fun while they do their job. But I hope they have more things going for it than just fun, I also don't mind rewarding them with cash payment or subscription if I also benefit or profit from using their work.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

No, I meant Mac vs PC+Windows because that is the status quo.

I'm all for Linux increasing its presence and influence on the desktop, but that was outside the scope of my analogy.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

There was a time when Windows was a HUGE joke. Ever use Windows 1.0? 2.0?

Somehow Microsoft overcame tremendous inertia and its once-useless operating environment (it didn't start as an actual OS) is now the status quo.

The original PC had a lot to overcome too, especially given that IBM's CEO at the time didn't even believe the product had a future. In the 1980s there were plenty of competitors to the PC and many of them viable.

Somehow those facts get lost in these arguments. One of my points is that the Internet Tablet family has the same opportunity and potential as the PC with Windows. The other is the sober reality that despite its allure, despite the hype, the Mac holds a small percentage of the computing market. The iPhone holds a small percentage of the phone market (less than 1%, compared to Nokia's over 35% globally). If Apple's Mac can't overcome the PC+Windows status quo with its supposed superiority, then how is the iPhone to demolish Nokia as some here claim? Apple doesn't exactly have the product depth to take on Nokia or Samsung or LG or any other major phone producer. And if people actually think those companies will sit idly by and LET Apple get to that point without a fight, then they really don't understand this business enough to comment on it.

I do agree with the remainder of your post though.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Actually I think Microsoft was pretty clever with Windows (by accident?). They did almost nothing against piracy for years. People copy their OS and use it. Now that everyone is used to it they put this DRM and WGA stuff in Windows and people have to pay.

For me the main problem with Linux is hardware support. Many people try a LiveCD. They see: "Ah my sound doesn't work. I better stick to Windows." If this would be the other way around... My father is just using Linux because I fixed issues like not working sound with recompiling libs, drivers and so on.

About code quality in opensource apps. Of course there are projects where the code is pretty much unreadable at first. But a lot of projects keep a good code quality since there are more than one person involved. So you need to keep a certain code quality so that the other developers can actually read what you write.

The problem for community projects is the lack of testhardware and time to test.

That's how I see it.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

So why so many album covers repeated?

I think I will stick to the coverflow mode - I like it. And of course it plays music without crashing or me having to reset it (which UKMP does on mine every time).

I am not bothered about kinetic everything - that is a 'nice to have' when you have sorted everything else. It is stupid careless things that annoy me. How come when you have a list that scrolls, when you can't scroll anymore you get a disabled arrow taking a whole row? Surely the fact that there isn't an arrow means you can't scroll anymore? That wastes a whole row. OK, no biggie, but lots of no biggies together make a general annoyance.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Repeated covers is my fault. Tagging is not right. My UKMP works all the time... Ok I don't use it that much because most of the time I'm using Mediastreamer....

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

There is no problem with code quality where it comes to legibility of the source (apart from maybe knock on effects for its quality as a product. it is the quality of applications where the concern is.
People, as in normal people who have no interest in computers other than they need to use one to do their job, really need consistancy.
The reason I have always despised linux for use (and I used to have to use it for a living) was that you get a key sequence that means print in one application, and it means delete document in another. At the time (mid 90s) it was even worse in that the mouse buttons didn't even do the same thing in all applications.
Like the java problem on macs. Not only do they make crap user interface, the basic commands like copy and paste are wrong.

Also, it is a pain to use an app that crashes all the time, regardless how good it is.

One thing that nokia needs more than anything though, a simple, easy to set up development environment that anyone can use!

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

If you use Ubuntu or say OpenSUSE with no extra repositories enabled you don't have crashing apps. You might not have the newest version but they will work most of the time. That's the main problem with opensource software. Testing. A hobbydeveloper mostly only tests on his machine and his installed distribution. So many oss-software is released and a week later comes the bugrelease...

I agree. I wasn't able to setup the Chinok SDK on my linux because some shell script didn't work because of syntax stuff. That's not how it should be.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Yes, and it's a matter of *law* that Microsof achieved that dominant position through a series of canny business decisions, borderline unethical business practices and downright illegal abuse of any power it did have.

And it was this lack of belief in the product by the rest of IBM's business that led the "PC" to actually becoming a success. There was a need for a respectable desktop machine, and the IBM name gave it that level of acceptability.

The openness of the design, caused by it being thrown together on a shoe string using off-the-shelf parts, allowed the clones to rise up; and the non-exclusive deal MS had to allow them to provide the same OS to these clones.

I think Nokia's Internet Tablets will be Psion to the Hildon Symbian. Lots of people will use Hildon, as it's now spun off to its own GNOME upstream project. It's being used in Moblin and Ubuntu Mobile, as we know - and more are bound to follow.

However, these guys using it are customising it, designing UIs around it and recognising that good UIs sell devices and get users. Ubuntu Mobile is already more open than Maemo: you just have to follow the mailing lists to see that there's no talk of keeping such-and-such closed to "protect their IP". Nokia are open: but they're not open enough. They design a UI based on that on the failed 7710, for market continuity. That's as crazy as Sun thinking people want all Java apps to look the same on any platform with their god awful Metal PLAF.

Nokia may well have recreated the PDA market with decentish web browser and coolly hackable devices. But Apple, Ubuntu and Intel will rule the roost with consumer devices we won't worry about recommending to friends or colleagues.

This is a strawman. In this forum we don't care if Nokia as a phone company go bust, do well or anything else. We only care about Nokia's Maemo devices. Which, if you're playing the numbers game, have a tiny percentage of the market compared with the iPhone, iPod Touch - probably the abysmally selling UMPCs - and, inevitably, the MID-style devices.

1) Again, who's talking about Nokia's phone range? Who cares? The point of the Internet Tablets, according to Ari Jaaksi et al is that you have a small phone which you can use to make calls (oh, and manage your calendar, apparently ;-)) which you use as a gateway out. The brand of phone is as interesting to me as what make my ADSL modem is.

2) That's one too many time you've suggested people who disagree with you aren't capable of discussing such topics rationally and intellectually. Please stop that.

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I don't see why any (normal) computer user would have to go through the hassle of pirate-copying Windows: It's still bundled with practically every pc on the market. In fact, those that buy a pc without Windows preinstalled, are the least likely people to want to install a "free" copy of Windows. And as for the real pirates (the ones that produce the "one dollar DVDs" you can find in every supermarket bin in SE Asia), they laugh heartily (with a lot of "Arr! me matey!!" thrown in for folklore's sake) at Microsoft's anti-copy measures, as they've usually cracked them within hours of their implementation.

It's even worse than that: I've had several instances of Knoppix and Ubuntu live CDs where a number of services weren't working, but upon full installation everything worked flawlessly. IMHO, live CDs are way overrated as hardware testers.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

It might be interesting to know that Windows (with its DOS predecessor) is practically the only software product Microsoft has ever managed to make money on. Even Office doesn't generate money. And the only reason Windows makes money, is because pc makers are still practically obliged to bundle it with their stuff, a position Microsoft achieved by simply breaking the law and "coercing" governments to do nothing until any legal action was too late to make a difference.

Now, before people accuse me of being biased against Microsoft: Their mice are nice.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Are you sure, I thought it was office that made money and windows that didn't?

I prefer logitech, but I am quite fond of their keyboards.

So for a non-hardware, software only company they are doing well here!

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Yes.

It's the other way around. Even worse, Microsoft hasn't produced a single money-making software product since Windows 3.0 (obviously not counting the follow-ups of Windows; and even there they lost a bundle with ME and are on the same path with Vista).

Although copies of BOB might be antiques of the future. Given what the average user did with theirs, there can't be too many left...

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

http://www.microsoft.com/msft/earnin...rel_q3_07.mspx

At the bottom the Operating Income thing is what they actually earn? I don't know. But there bussiness division (That's Office) makes huge profit? I don't know anything about finances :)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Ummm no.
Office for Mac makes MS a nice piece of change.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Unfortunately. :mad:

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I won't address the bulk of your post because you're getting into mechanics and my points were not intended to go in that direction.

The straw man accusation, though, is absolutely incorrect. I am making a reference to statements made in this very forum. You may think it's irrelevent for me to address such comments, but that's simply your opinion. I have my own. I believe that blurring the lines as some have done (hell, that even includes the many ill-conceived comparisons between iProducts and the tablets) is disingenuous. Yes, this IS a tablet forum-- but please save that lecture for those I'm responding to, thanks. I already get it.

But to the last points you make:

1. You are responding to general comments not directed at anyone addressed. I assumed my wording made that clear; sorry if it did not.

2. You are reading far too much into that line. It was not meant in the way you take it. I did NOT make the statement you allege, nor is any such meaning stated or implied. Period. The point is that *some* (please note generic address) have made grandiose claims here about Apple's new offerings killing Nokia's business in toto (the posts are in this forum) as well as those claiming Nokia will not be able to respond to Apple's challenge-- and I'm saying that such statements display a severe lack of understanding of the subject. It has nothing at all to do with "agreeing with me", but rather, doing one's homework and making an effort to grasp the subject in which one elects to engage. I would think that was self-obvious.

I quite frankly do not understand your persistent animosity toward me Andrew. I believe it to be completely unwarranted and can't understand why you consistently look for ulterior motives and meanings that aren't in my posts. A little benefit of the doubt, ie SAFE assumptions, would be nice.

I do find it funny that I make a very simple observation about Mil's IT friends post and it garners so many harsh rebuttals... especially attempts to draw me off onto one tangent after another. I stand by my original premise: IT folks are more likely to find the N800 suitable to helping them with support work than an iPhone or iPod. I'm still waiting for someone to counter that instead of attacking ME or trying to pull me into side topics. :rolleyes:

PS: If you have personal problems with me or what I write, I'd prefer you take it up with me in a private message, thanks.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

This is kind of irrelevant, but you're totally wrong on that one: Office makes tons of money for Microsoft.

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2007/0...ffice-profits/

"In terms of annual profits, Microsoft earned $3.9 billion from server software, $11.6 billion from Windows, but almost $10.84 billion from Office. These figures are all detailed in Microsoft’s earnings reports."

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Yes, I agree with that.

Thanks ;)

Btw, I have a very important tidbit that seems to be on-topic with this thread:

The weather in Tokyo today is very nice.

Har. This thread's topic is completely all over the map, those people attacking Texrat better rethink what it is they're trying to achieve and get to the point.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I have suggested that Apple could kill the Nokia NIT line, mainly because the appeal of the NIT is far too narrow and limited (and to an extent, lacking in quality) whereas the Apple products have a much broader appeal and obvious quality. I know you don't believe the devices compete, and in many areas they do not compete directly but for the *GENERAL CONSUMER* those areas where the NIT is strong are of little, if any, importance which is why, given the choice, the *GENERAL CONSUMER* will choose an Apple product in preference to a NIT.

Now, I do not believe that the Apple iPhone will in any way impact sales of Nokia PHONES, and Nokia isn't likely to be going bust any time soon! :)

As for using NITs in a work/support environment, I rebutted that to some extent by saying that wireless networks in a corporate environment are a complete no-no in many industries, particularly the industry I and my friends work in (finance). I wonder what the experience of others has been regarding the provision of WiFi networks in a corporate environment with access to an internal corporate LAN - I'd be surprised if they are common in large security-aware organisations, and without WiFi access to a LAN I'm not really sure how a NIT can be useful in a support role, unless it's used in an offline mode perhaps for reference documentation (which could probably be accomplished by an Apple product in time, once someone hacks local storage and creates a document viewer if it doesn't already have one...)

:)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Well, the point's been made a hundred times that, compared to the itouch, the NIT software and out-of-box experience is woefully unfinished. It was OK to talk about the platform's potential two years ago, but not any more. So fix it and stop telling everyone to be content with the current sad state of affairs.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Ah, it's not that the premise is wrong; it's the fact that your defense of the NIT has been reduced or shifted to this premise that is noteworthy. With the second generation, Nokia positioned the NIT as an Nseries multimedia device (added the webcam, Rhapsody, Skype, etc.). And now when another multimedia device comes along, and Apple and Nokia would seem to be directly competing on devices and services, you now defend the NIT as being for helping "IT folks with support work." They were not the target customer base for the N800, so it says something that that is now your argument (along with "be patient and wait for the future third party SW development" argument).

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I actually agree with you that my advocation has been reduced to a "sad state of affairs". I can't argue that at all. I certainly wish the N800 were the darling of the consumer electronics landscape and enjoying much more third party support than it has.

But I have to live in and deal with reality. I'm not going to defend things that don't work. I'm not going to make useless excuses for missteps. So all I have to offer *at the moment* are reminders that the tablets still hold a great deal of (in some aspects unrealized) potential-- more so than some devices that have managed to impressively leapfrog it sales-wise. Until that situation changes, that's my last remaining talking point as an advocate. Of course, I could shut up entirely if that's what the majority desire. :cool:

And yes, I have indeed pointed out that the N800 is INTENDED as a multimedia device. I capitalized "intended" for a reason. The point was that this is how *Nokia* positioned it. While I agree the explanation doesn't sit will with those wanting enterprise apps from Nokia, it is what it is. That having been said, the tablet CAN do so much more. Just because it's INTENDED for multimedia doesn't limit it to that genre, thanks to Linux. So due to the efforts of third parties and some in-house development, I *can* use my Nseries device as an ersatz Eseries device. I can communicate with colleagues over sametime, check corporate email using the Outlook Web Client, manage user accounts in web applications, access web reports from SQL Server, browse and search the web for information, etc. And there is nothing that I'm aware of keeping that from being the case for IT users at large. I quite frankly don't know why there isn't a universal hildonized VPN tool.

Back to the thread topic, I actually have a great deal of respect for Apple's accomplishments with the iPhone and iPod; I've said that before and it gets lost in the noise. I just think the NITs *can* do so much more. And yes, I fully recognize Nokia's needs in that area.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Fair enough. I'll also reply to your post backwards to deal with the most important points first.

In which case I apologise fully for suggesting it. However, I hope you can understand how I came to that conclusion when the following, in this one post, could apply to anyone who suggests the N800 and iPhone/iPod Touch compete for the money of most potential users of either device (of which I'm one), or similar grounded statements:

Finally on this matter...
Again, I apologise. I do not believe I have been looking for ulterior motives and meanings in your posts. I think your motives are quite clear, and clearly expressed: you are a dedicated tablet user who can see the potential of the devices, and a Nokia employee. The motives from both these are clear, expected are in no-way counteractive.

I have no such problem, and again I'm sorry if that came across.

Finally finally, and back on-topic now...
I think many of us here are guilty of arguing with the extremes, whereas the interesting debate is in the centre:

• No-one serious thinks the iPhone is a threat to Nokia's mobile phone business in its entirety: it's too focused at the high end, too expensive and too locked down.
• No-one serious thinks the Nokia Internet Tablets don't have great flexibility, power and show a real amount of effort put in by the Maemo team.
• No-one serious would ever not look at the competition, even in slightly tangential market segments, and look to see how lessons there could be applied to their own products (whether that is in marketing, usability, prettiness etc.)

The last point has worked particularly well for Microsoft ;-)

The debate therefore should never be about if Nokia is going to go bust, or if everyone will own Apple devices. It's a useless argument on a hiding to nowhere. The debate should be about what lessons Nokia can learn from the iPod Touch and iPhone (whether one believes they compete directly or not) and make the devices that everyone sensible on this forum recognises have enormous potential, have that potential realised.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

An SDK is coming to the iPhone - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7049689.stm

I think this announcement now closes this debate, the iPhone/Touch will be absolute competitors to the Nokia Internet Tablets in the near future once the SDK is available. With sales of the Apple products dwarfing sales of the NITs there is bound to be far more interest in developing for Apple devices than for NITs, which will only increase the appeal of the iPhone/Touch.

Perhaps Nokia can find a temporary niche with the GPS and hardware keyboard enabled N810 (I'm certain that GPS will appear on an iPhone/Touch next year and decimate the GPS market!), but longer term I can't see how Nokia can compete with Apple for mind share without increasing NIT sales by several orders of magnitude and significantly raising public awareness.

Then again, Nokia may not even attempt to compete with Apple and may be willing to continue funding NITs while the platform evolves into something that spans phones and computing devices - ie. NITs are a long term and very public research project!