Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

That was a general chiding and not meant for you, gerbick... sorry for not making that clear.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I don't know..the iPod Touch looks nice but I am not a fan of carrying too many devices around. That is one reason I don't understand why people buy MP3 players. I have my Nokia 770 and Cingular 8525. Even though I love my 770, it is just so much easier to carry one device. My 8525 can do pretty much everything my 770 can, but it has a smaller screen. I with I could get more use out of my 770.

The iPhones and the iPod Touch have really nice looking operating systems which I wish could be run on my 8525 and 770. But I like the freedom of putting what I want on my device.

Honestly I don't see why anyone would pick the Touch over the iPhone unless you can not afford the iPhone, afford the monthly payment or can not get a contract with At&t..

The 770 and 800 both beat the Apple products with there nice screens though. Nothing compares to it.

I am really hoping the next device from Nokia can be used as an internet tablet and phone because I like having an all in one device..which is why I don't use my 770 as much as I want to. I also hope it has a really pretty OS and large touch screen. A slide down keyboard wouldn't hurt either.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

No probs. Just understand though... as a tinkerer and a two time purchaser of the 770... I could easily end up being seen as pessimistic.

Which, quite honestly is about to happen and it has nothing to do with the iPod Touch. I just feel like I'm part of Nokia's test lab without any regard to what I'd like to honestly see in a product.

But thank goodness the community is active and basically has given me reasons to stay happy.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

As a gadget freak I think the iPhone is cool. Same for the new iPods. I just wonder how much of a market they can have though. Remember, there's no touch feedback from a flat touchscreen, so you have to at least occasionally glance at that iPod Touch to "home" yourself.

But I envision future touchscreens that incorporate piezo and related effects. Imagine that the edges of screen icons have 3d ridges raised automatically around them. Imagine force feedback from a touchscreen (!). I'm betting someone develops those. THAT will be something.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I love my N800.

I respect the open source movement, we need it to bring some balance into the system. The development model is very effective for certain class of programs and standards and\but it usually ends up commoditizing the resulting product.

Right now I see the Nokia Internet Tablet as the ultimate mobile toy for the Linux geeks. I think that is sound from the concept (we have an open platform based on linux) to the implementation (you need or will acquire some familiarity with Linux as you use the tablet to its potential) and to the statistisc (I'm pretty sure this is reflected in the consumer demographic, if there's such data available somewhere).

Does any of the above make good business for Nokia? Not right now.
To me, this just seem like an inexpensive experiment in incubating an open platform for future wireless\wimax Nokias.

I think both Nokia and Apple are aiming for the almost exact specific market: next generation mobile digital content delivery platform. Nokia just looking to assist in creating the standard and hopefully supply majority of the hardware, while Apple is being more ambitious with their plans and orchestrating (+ profiting from) more components of their end-to-end solution. Apple deals with the content suppliers (music, video, and soon programs and games), having the content delivery mechanism themselves (iTunes store), and even long term partnerships with the network providers (AT&T, Starbucks).

Strategically, Apple is in such a stronger position than Nokia to control their ecosystem. And as long as they create mutually beneficial conditions in their solution. Here are some interesting possibilities:

- Now they've a content-specific wifi-deal with Starbucks on potentially 4800 hotspots across the U.S. This will only grow larger. Imagine similar deals with 7-11s, Gas stations, Walmarts, etc. (Why on earth would they want this? My next point would be the reason).

- iTunes shop as your iWallet. Use it to pay for location based services (Gas, 7-11 goods, etc).

- When they have sufficient coverage (read: deals) for 'near-free' wifi hotspots, the VOIP client will finally be introduced to the platform. Whether they partner with Skype ($0.05/minute premium maybe?) or they launch their own.

In the meanwhile, the product is quite sellable as-is masking as a multimedia player. It works well as audio video player, browser and digital photo album.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I too have an 8525 and a 770 and am feeling slighted by the lack of continued development of the 770's OS. I too am really hoping to like my 770 more than I do and am trying hard to get more use out of it.
The touch is an interesting device to me, but we shall see. I'd like to see what the hacker community can do with applications.
I don't see the tablet market declining much with this touch release. People I mention mine to have never heard of it (Internet tablet).

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Don't be so quick to call the ipod touch a success. Look at all the competition itt has from its own family... nano, classic, iphone... so many choices would confuse a consumer.
still too early to tell.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

could it be all the sugar in the food?

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I have a 770, a 4thG iPod (30gb 'photo') and a Macbook. Going by that information, you might assume that I'm open to Apple's new offerings, but lemme tell you, every one of the new iPods is wrong for me.

The Touch has a screen I refuse to do any surfing or reading on, at that size and resolution. Nor does 16gb fit enough of my music. The iPod classic is excessively large (80gb? I'll never fill half) and the screen is still inadequate for movies, which makes it a waste (i don't need that much real estate just to scroll thru my songs). The nano is redundant if you have a real iPod.

When my current iPod breaks, I'll go looking for a deal on an old iPod (just saw one on sale for $150. I've come to realize that even a color screen on an iPod is a waste, at least for me, because I turn off the backlight the entire time to save the battery, and in that state song names are perfectly readable but you can hardly tell it's a color screen. If you just want to play 30gb of music, what does it matter?).

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Okay, let's go back...

I purchased my 770 in Jan. 2005 with simple expectations of using it as a portable Internet browsing device with some other nifty features such as audio/video, and maybe a handful of community created apps. To my pleasant surprise, so much more was made possible in a very short time. VNC, Canola, tons of games, several open source apps I never thought would run on the little device, and of course multiple firmware updates that improved not only functionality, but overall appearance of the interface.

Now, I don't own an N800, but I've seen similar improvements, updates, and growing number of new apps make their way to that device as well. And that's after the "branch off" from the 2006 OS 770 users have come to know. Such a break in OS compatibility in any other device would kill a product line so fast it would make your head spin, but for some reason (I still can't figure that one out) people continued buying the tablets, and possibly an increase in sales as a whole.

I think Nokia knows quite well what they are doing in this space, and have learned very valuable lessons from these two devices. Knowing what I know now, I expect the same growth and maturity of the third device, and that is what keeps me holding on to the Internet Tablet idea.

Sure, Nokia support for the 770 has stopped, but it still serves my needs just as well as it did the day I bought it (sometimes even more so). I didn't buy an N800 because I expected less support for it, but it has exceeded my expectations tremendously. As for Apple iPhone/iPod Touch, I don't see the same growth, development, and maturity happening any time soon (at least not as fast as the tablets).

Sorry for the supper long post. Just trying to give this thread some more perspective and reading material. ;)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I took the n800 out of the case i keep it in today. This is great piece of consumer electronics acheivement. It has solid build, a beautiful screen and a removeable battery.
Nokia has nothing to be ashamed of.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Er... back more to the original topic. The Touch looks very nice- I even experienced a brief urge to get one because (I guess) it's New and Shiny.

Then reality- it has a smaller screen size and same resolution as a Palm TX and with a much more limited set of software!

The N800 has the screen size and resolution to make the device much more useful... if the software was there! (And a transflective display really wouldn't hurt, either.)

I don't know. To me, (a non-hacker) the new Ipaq 210 currently looks like the most useful of the bunch. But maybe I should just keep limping along for another 6 months and see what the Intel MIDs actually do....

Re: It's over
 

GPE Calendar + Erminig + Google Calendar! Unfortunately, I've not seen a contact sync application (preferably opensync-based so I can sync with my Linux desktop).

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

One thing that has been mentioned briefly and must be kept in mind- especially by those wondering whether to buy an iTouch or N800 or both- is why iPods sell so well in a market flooded with mp3/music playing devices (do you own anything that runs on batteries and doesn't play mp3s??). It's a lifestyle product now. It's simple, for the the most part, cheap enough to own a couple different flavors and it has the Starbuck's effect- you know exactly what you're going to get and how it will work no matter what you buy and where you buy it.

I totally agree with Apples decision to keep the iPhone/Touch "closed" for the time being. I don't know how much time I've spent in the past trying to figure out which 3rd party, beta app just borked whatever Palm/Clie/WinMobile device I was using at the time (although that WAS part of the fun). The average consumer doesn't want to spend time either fiddling on their own or with tech support trying to figure out why the screen freezes after installing that last [Nanny-Cam/World Clock Scheduling app] ;)

For me the beauty of the 770, and now N800 is what could be. It's been like getting one of those unraveling party favors.

The iTouch will take PMP's to the masses, but enthusiasts will always want to add their own personality.

My impression is that Nokia started with the bare essentials and watched to see what would happen. Those who got the concept were the ones Nokia planned on selling the device to. I love this and have waited to find apps to support (verbally or financial).

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Well, Apple really wants to sell you the Touch; the Classic is only around for a specific (loyal) iPod niche, and the Touch is the future. This was even mentioned in one of the Mac-centric podcasts I listen too; Jobs sort of brushed off the Classic intro compared to the Nano and Touch intros. Of course, there weren't that many changes, compared to 2 basically completely new products. There's a certain niche of MP3 player user that wants to carry their entire music library with them all the time, and flash memory still hasn't advanced to the point it can offer sufficient capacity to service these hardcore users. These people have been consistent buyers of the hard drive-based iPod over the Nano, and Apple thinks there's enough of a market there to keep an iPod around for them, even though their future drive is toward more iPhone/Touch-like devices running OS X. That's why there's a price overlap between the Classic and Touch. Remove the Classic, and their price structure is pretty logical: $50 between the 2 Nanos, $100 between the Touches and the iPhone.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Actually, the N800 is the first device that actually made me go out and buy VMware Fusion in order to load up Ubuntu on my Macbook Pro just to port things over to it.
My Palm devices years ago never did that. My cell phones (n80i, N95, 6260, etc.) never did that.
Not even my Sharp Zaurus 5500 did that and it was Linux-based as well!
But the combination of free SDK, built-in wi-fi and bluetooth, and dual SDHC slots was just too much to resist.
I get this device and use it almost constantly at home. It really is my new "web browser and news reader" device.
Especially when I'm using the MBP to recompile apps for it...

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Another reminder of how broken the monopolistic US cellular market is. Cheapest data plan here is about $30 a month, and that's not unlimited. Even my parents' HDSPA data plan in Indonesia is cheaper! ($20 total, bandwith caps, no included minutes for voice calls)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

A comment on engadget that makes a LOT of sense:

http://cellphones.engadget.com/2007/...he-nokia-n800/

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Oooooo....BURN!

I know that wasn't your intent but it's funny nonetheless

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I read that the N95 is selling extremely well - in the Nokia Q2 results, it states that 1.5 million N95s were sold in Q2. That's over 10 N95 phones sold per minute for three straight months! Pretty good demand, similar or better than the iPhone (1m in 3 months, albeit US-only). Then you have the E65 selling 1m in 3 months, and 25% of sales in India (a huge market) are for E and N-series phones.

And that's how Nokia can gain the upper hand with the service providers, by having the devices that consumers demand - then see if the service providers refuse to sell Nokia phones. Sure, there'll be some pain along the way, but this is what Nokia needs to do - get tough with the service providers and stop them dictating the terms, stop them controlling access to content and stop them from deleting functionality from phones which impairs the overall experience.

It's a shame that Nokia, Motorola, Samsung and SonyEricsson etc. can't get together and agree a united strategy to rest power from the service providers, although that might have questionable legal implications. :)

One day - sooner rather than later - the service providers will realise their purpose is to provide and maintain the network, and nothing more.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Nokia tried that in the US, Milhouse. The other phone providers took advantage instead of realizing that approach was in their favor as well. Or maybe realized it but were too fearful to rebel also. Either way, it's back to square one for Nokia in the US market.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Nokia actually entered the U.S. market? Odd, I'm not seeing any Nokia phone commercials on TV like I see for the Helio, iPhone, etc.
While it's nice to have not one but TWO [snicker] "flagship" stores in the U.S. they aren't going to be worth a damn if Nokia doesn't get off their *** and ADVERTISE THEIR PRODUCTS IN THE MARKETS THEY HAVE STORES IN.

Seriously, find the Finnish guy in charge of U.S. marketing/advertising and kick him in the nuts.
Repeatedly. Many times. Until he dies horribly.
Then hire someone who at least has an inkling of what to do.
I've come to the realization today that talking "nice" about Nokia and offering them sound advice isn't working so we all just need to start kicking every Nokia employee we meet in the jimmy until they finally get a phucking clue.
Sometimes violence is the answer.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I've also come to the conclusion that sticking native Finnish speakers in front of English speaking audiences with the intention of announcing the latest gadgets and technologies just doesn't work - the presentations (and I've watched a few, believe me) lack charisma and any shred of enthusiasm. This isn't their fault, it's probably lost in the translation (and they're doing a better job than I could ever hope to achieve in reverse) but the fact of the matter is that it simply doesn't work as well as their competitors.

Nokia - hire some decent presenters for Christ's sake, you'd save a fortune in advertising if you only achieved 10% of the media coverage generated by a single Steve Jobs demonstration.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I'm considering to buy a new iPod for my music - since the old one breaks down all the time with strange "1418" error messages that Apple denies are any real problem - but I wouldn't consider the Touch. I want a great mp3 device.

Specifically:
- Small and pocketable. Nano is great, Classic somewhat acceptable. Touch is rather brickish.
- Easy to use, under different conditions. Adjust volume, change to the next track. Now this is the biggest reason why Touch is a no-no. I can press "next track" blind, with the ipod in my pocket, as well as adjust the volume. Try doing that with a touch screen.
- Plenty of storage space for a reasonable price. Classic is great, Nano and Touch ... Well, I want 40 gigabytes at least for about half of my music library.

I'm sure the Touch will sell reasonably well, but I doubt that these people really think too much about the fact that it's simply worse to use as a mobile mp3 player than the Classic or the Nano. Touch screens aren't the holy grail for everything in the world.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Bingo. I can't wait until all of these Touches are out in the wild and people realize they have to LOOK at the screen to see where they're at.

Give me the wheels, buttons and other hardware doodads, thanks.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

You're by yourself on that one. A touch screen is what's essential on the Nokia Internet Tablet... it's good to have on the iPod as well... just like it's great to have on the iPhone.

What's being swayed around too much in this thread is personal opinion, imho. Apple has a commercial hit on their hands. It will sell well within their lineup of products. NAND Memory and touch screen will be their answer to the people that want iPhone-ish tech but not unhappy with their phone.

For casual users, it's wifi abilities will be enough to whip out and use at a hotspot. I personally need a bit more - I use Pidgin, among other things a bit much (Nokia 770 user here, so Skype is a wet-dream) - and my access to multiple POP3 accounts is stellar on my internet tablet.

But honestly? Nokia isn't marketing in the US at all. The iPod Touch will sell in numbers that will make it more of a mainstream success. And if anything, Linux for the masses has been proven to not be as universal as it can be. Things have to be dumbed down and "just work" in order for it to be a commercial success.

I personally need root access. But I wish that Nokia would build a button less Internet Tablet... practical? Perhaps not. But it'd be a bit sleeker than the "retro styling" on the N800. And I'm one of the few that's happy with the 770's styling. It's sorta like the Commodore 64 of styling that does it for me.

Oh... and this...

Moot point. You have to look at your Internet Tablet in order to use it too. Only volume and full-screen and navigation (something you have to notice while looking at it) work well... and only one of them is something you can do without looking at it on the Nokia IT's.

I use my Internet Tablet. So that means I will look at it while using it. I turn my iPod on, set shuffle, lock the controls, slip it into a case, and walk with it.

The iPod Touch will be used the same way by me. I'm now waiting for the hackers to get a chance with it. Seems like the iPhone hacks will work on the iPod Touch as well.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Yeah, there's a lot of reasons why the touch controls Apple added to the 3G were removed for the Click Wheel in the 4G. Believe me, I've owned both. Of course, if they had announced a remote for the iPod touch, that would have helped greatly.

Note: it's the same reason why I don't use the Nokia as a primary media device -- usability demands that *some* actions are buttons for speed and accessibility in tasks. When I go out with my iPod, I'm holding it in my hand or in my pocket, thumb on the wheel, unconsciously adjusting volume levels, skipping back and forth, pausing to hear an announcement on the train, etc. all without looking at it. The N800 design just isn't as specialized for media, from the lack of a hardware media controls that work regardless of foreground app to smaller bumps like the unfortunate distinction between system volume and media player volumes.

[Edited: corrected the whole 3G-4G thing]

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Yep. The American market is just too different. Not enough carrier variety/competition, GSM not ubiquitous enough, too many 2-year contracts, no end-user SIM market, etc. etc. If you can't play nice with the carriers to get your handsets into the stores and into official channels, you're selling to the hardcore minority only that know how to support themselves.

To rebel is to take a beating to your bottom line and leave a nice big gap for another manufacturer to fill. Only regulation will solve this, and good luck beating those lobbyists.

Now... an iPhone designed as an unlocked phone might have been the breakout mass-market sensation that finally got citizens to care about the issue -- they definitely had the public momentum to do so. But they went with AT&T exclusivity because they needed them for features and support and that's exactly why networks are so annoyingly powerful in this business.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

And now for something completely different:
The main reason why the N800 will trump the iPod Touch:
When browsing, the ability to have the option to "Save picture"
:D

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Shows it has a real browser. :)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

No, they went with AT&T exclusivety because anaylsts are conservatively predicting that Apple receives between $3 and $11 per month per subscriber from AT&T... Apple wouldn't be able to receive such fees if the phones were SIM free and unlocked, and Apple only receive the larger fee if customers switch to AT&T in order to obtain the iPhone (hence the exclusivety).

Apple have the product and the marketing which allows them to dictate their own terms to the network operators. They're repeating this story across Europe now, and will become a major global force in telecommunications in the future. The iPhone is their new mobile platform, it's a total money spinner, they'll earn far more income than Nokia or the others ever could on each phone, and the phones will only get better.

In addition to that, the iPhone platform is compatible with the iPod Touch, ensuring that developers will have a vast target audience for their applications, ensuring development snowballs. The closed nature of the devices is an issue right now, but I'm sure that will change in time, one way or another.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Who knows, Apple might even find it a logical step to introduce an iPod Touch Plus with a 5" 800 x 480 screen, built in microphone and speakers. A familiar form factor to most here, I am sure

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I've read most of this thread and to be honest can see both sides of the argument - I'm a Macbook and N800/N770 owner - but from what I've been seeing I think Nokia have a bigger problem on their minds than the iPod Touch.

Over the last year the number of Nokia phones I see out and about has dropped dramatically and most people now seem to be using Sony Ericsson. I switched to the K800i, having been very dissatisfied with an N70 and moved to samsung. The rest of my family had moved long before me.

For me S60 killed the attraction of Nokia phones. The N70 was a truly atrocious phone, the N73 marginally better and the N95 is about the first S60 I've seen that has acceptable performance.

The Touch vs N800 argument is just a minor part of the problem.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Not moot at all. Again: DIFFERENT CORE USES. For the life of me I cannot see why that's so difficult to grasp. But I've already belabored it to death. No reason to drag out the jogging/reading example again.

I realize the Touchs and iPhones will be hugely popular and successful by Apple's standards (the iPhone possible less so based on current sales rates). But I still believe a lot of the euphoria will wear off once the coolness/practicality ration gets closer to reality than hype. The latter is what leads to the ridiculous "these things will totally kill Nokia's products" claims, and THAT is what I'm taking issue with in this thread.

Nokia is not going to roll over and die for Apple, folks.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Ooo, great idea! A little key fob-sized thing or even a remote headset that uses bluetooth to control the iPod Touch and--

oops.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

That will be next years model, along with 32GB flash memory! The price of the existing models will be reduced so that the the $399 price point is still maintained. :) Speakers and microphone are over rated... that's what Bluetooth is for. :)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I am sure you are right, I was just thinking in terms of voip and video chat. The built in items on the n800 make for a very convenient experience.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

You know, seriously: if Apple did something like that (and they well may), THEN many of my current arguments fail. Until then, you guys are really reaching with these "exact same market segment" claims. :p

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Ah, you're right, I blanked on that arrangement. Thanks for pointing that out.

Just goes to show that Apple is still a business, no matter how pretty their devices are.