Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Hunting for free open WiFi hotspots is indeed a problem. Even in airports (where it shouldn't be).

I am very hopeful that Sprint delivers. To have an Internet connection and unlimited VoIP minutes everywhere w/o the limitations of US 3G data plans is a big advantage for the N800 WiMax version. This is where/how the Nokia IT can still compete/differentiate itself. Apple cannot roll-out connectivity solutions as well as Nokia, certainly not as quickly. Even now, they can't even do 3G.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Just having fun with ya, Mil.

And you know what I was talking about. ;)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Airports are another problem altogether. I wouldn't want to be walking around a US airport with an N800 lest some overzealous TSA guard think I'm a terrorist.
Of course, checking in luggage with handguns through TSA doesn't help either but it makes damn sure my luggage gets to where I'm going every single time.
The only airport I can complain about as far as wi-fi would have to be the one in Budapest, Hungary. It's range is weak. Went outside to have a smoke and could barely get a connection with either my N800 let alone the much-weaker N95.

Damn right. And due to the open-source nature of the tablet it won't be long before we figure out how to reverse-tether laptops and cell phones to Wi-Max through the N800.
How's THAT for future irony?

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Back atchya :)

Gonna try and duck out of this discussion from now on (although I'm not sure I'll be able to resist posting every now and again!) It's obvious there are at least two opinions on how the respective devices will progress, all we can do now is sit back and watch... and hope for some interesting announcements from Maemo/Nokia regarding the NIT platform. :)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

This has been an awesome discussion. I hope everyone's having as much fun as I am!

:D

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I always have fun kicking Nokia's U.S. marketing reps in the jimmy.
Next stupidly-named Evening with S60 event I might even drive up to Chi-town and kick a few in the jimmy there. Starting with the guy who gave the event its name in the first place. When starting fresh in a new market you don't rave only about the operating system you rave about the HARDWARE first, then bring up the operating system features on the various devices.
I'll be the one wearing the I solve my problems through violence t-shirt and legally packing heat.
Why the gun? Hey, it's bloody Chicago for crying out loud! Not to mention it's too close to Detroit for my comfort.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I believe it's a population density issue. NYC's is 27,083 people per square mile, SF is 15,834 and KC is 1,406. NYC and SF are also heavily traveled (tourism, visitors, etc.) so you're serving that many more people on top of the resident population, and are open to that much more resource demand & potential abuse (don't forget), which overwhelms a lot of small businesses. Also, because these cities have such high rents and cost-of-living, those businesses require rapid turnover to make the sales needed to survive, and offering someone wi-fi access for free means they just hang around, slowing customer turnover and blocking new ones. (Hell, New York has had blackouts that have forced businesses to close for good -- it's not pretty.)

Paying for wi-fi doesn't just fund infrastructure and balance out the sag in turnover, it also weeds out the leechers (both in the store and in the 4 office buildings surrounding your store) from the people who care enough about their network needs to think a good wi-fi connection is worth something.

Essentially, it's a defensive maneuver.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

So you're trying to tell me that because there are FEWER residents in a given area that free wi-fi will be more prevalent in those areas?
Sorry, but basic logic counters that line of thinking.
The MORE residents in a given area INCREASES the chance of free/open wi-fi APs being found and used.
It's a numbers game based upon odds. Just like Vegas.
BTW, I've found plenty of free wi-fi in Las Vegas too, but that was a few years ago...things might have changed but Vegas doesn't really change much.
I also consider WEP-protected wi-fi APs to be "free and open" since I can usually crack them wide-open in a few minutes with my laptop.
Packet injection FTW!

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

BTW: I just got the October MacWorld in the mail (pre-announcement, obviously) and there's an op-ed piece in there about new iPods called "I Want Buttons" and cites his own iPhone experiences as examples.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

And Apple will tell him to buy a new Nano, Classic, or Shuffle.
This is a non-story, it's only due to the magazine being called "MacWorld" (which I do read once in a while) and the op-ed piece actually publicly dissenting from the typical Pro-Everything-Apple mentality that makes it news.
MacWorld just moved to the bottom of Apple's "send them a review unit" list.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Yep. That's how it started -- open access galore. But these are not static odds and people get wise over time. At some point, when you notice someone is hijacking your connection you close yours off. All that means is that everyone else jumps on the next open one until that person notices and shuts it down -- it's a rolling effect.

Also, there's not a single router that doesn't strongly warn people to leave its password protection on. When you're in a city with over 200 apartments within your immediate vicinity (or just in your own building, like me) it's a no-brainer to leave it locked down.

So yeah, a few years ago from my apartment I could see 5 access points within range, all but one of them open. Now, I can see around 15 of them and they're all locked.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I know it was a few pages ago, but we *were* just talking about preferring buttons on our players (or not). I just thought that a 20-year-old publication with what almost amounts to an open-letter to Apple saying the same thing was amusing enough to share with everyone else, given what we know now.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I'd definitely be more willing to open up my wifi if I live in the countryside where I know most of my neighbors (and their net-savvy kids), than if I had lived in a busy downtown intersection close to hotels, cafes and public (bus\subway) stations.

Let me get this straight... Sprint has to make major investment to deploy WiMax on their existing infrastuctures so that Nokia can launch the "in development, but not really finished yet" NITs, AND let Skype, one of their arch enemy VOIP provider free roam on their network, so that the NIT fanboys can cheer... for a small mint??

Will you drive your car off a broken bridge, video tape and post it on Youtube for a whole load of online forum cheering and a paypal pot of $68.73??

'Open connection' access on a mobile network goes against their whole business model. They still don't have to go down that route and can still collect the pretty penny for yet another few years on what they have going on. Maybe if someone like google (gphone, 700mhz bandwidth bid) enters the picture, will this whole thing shifts.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Yep, exactly what I see in my area of hi-rise downtown apartments.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

or, we could all wear these...
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/how20/6...cbccdrcrd.html
:rolleyes:

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

That's you. Luckily you don't make up the majority of the population where in general people are stupid about truly secure wi-fi.


Obviously reading comprehension is not your strong suit.
Notice where I said they had to make a "deal"? You know, like Apple just did with AT&T?
Only in this case, Nokia and Sprint get a cut of Skype's revenue intake from users using Nokia devices on Sprint's Wi-Max network in exchange for Nokia loading Skype on every new Wi-Max-enabled device and Sprint supplying the network.
Sprint can also get a cut of the revenues from every Wi-Max device sold in the U.S. as well as the usual income they will get from selling Wi-Max services to those users with Wi-Max-enabled kit.

See that folks? Right there is where she killed any type of coherent argument she might have had.

Gee, I didn't know that mobile data networks in the US were just giving that type of wireless service away for "free"?
Oh that's right...they aren't. They're charging a pretty penny and locking folks into year+ long contracts for it. Unless you mean "open connection" for any type of device that is able to connect to it? In that case the user of said device STILL has to pay the mobile network service provider for access.
Hello? That's EXACTLY how unlocked phones are able to work in the first place.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I for one welcome our new wi-fi-backpack-carrying overlords.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

My point is that voice traffic is still the bread and butter of mobile operators. To make any sort of deals with VOIP companies is seen as a step to cannibalize their main product.

They're not even doing any profit sharing schemes to cellphone producers right now, let alone VOIP providers whom are seen as their direct competitors (of a subset of their product).

PS: I'm sorry I didn't follow suit on going down your route doing personal attack and all the negativity. I don't see how that helps with the discussion.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Wow, nothing like admitting to committing a felony on a public forum!

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Indeed, you are right and no one who is credible would seriously propose a deal between Sprint and Skype or any VoIP provider. But it is quite possible that, with the next generation Nokia IT, you will be able to use Skype or VoIP on Sprint WiMax. Not because of any intention or desire by Sprint for that to happen, but through the backdoor sort to speak because it will be possible with the Nokia IT.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Nokia deals with Sprint and then Nokia deals with Skype. Sprint can't do a damn thing if Nokia decides to make deals with Skype - or any other VoIP provider - on a device Sprint's already trumpeting in the press as operating on their Wi-Max network.
I never said Sprint would talk to Skype directly but if they were smart they would get off their asses and do so after the new Wi-Max-enabled tablet is released.
Have all of you suddenly forgotten about the RTCOMM VoIP beta going on right now? You know, the same RTCOMM that will wind up being deployed in the next N800 firmware update as well as going on the new Wi-Max-enabled internet tablets from Nokia?

You're unable to separate the VOICE network built by Sprint with the DATA network built by Sprint. Wi-Max is currently marketed/publicized as DATA only (think "VoIP" here) whereas CDMA is VOICE and DATA.
Does one need a CDMA voice plan to use Wi-Max? Nope. Is Sprint going to force purchasers of an Wi-Max N800 to also buy ANOTHER device and a voice phone plan in order to use Wi-Max? Phuck no, the backlash would terminate everything in that area.
Or do all of Sprint's voice plans now throw in unlimited data at no extra charge?
Yeah, I didn't think so.
Your point might have been valid last year, but no longer.

Gee, I think AT&T proved that it's "possible" to do such things and actually INCREASE their profit margins while doing so.

You started when you began making smartass comments about driving a car off a cliff so I decided to bundle your arguments in the trunk of said car as it drove past.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Longest thread ever.


iBall, you're going to have a hernia. You argue with so much conviction, almost at a zealous level, when it comes to the N800 and defense of the IT platform.

Anything that is brought up as a negative towards your precious tablet, you come up with an incredible (and oddly skewed) reason as to how they are wrong.

I'll place your logic in parenthesis. (oh noes!)

Wifi access points (oh just hack them! zomg! which you do on your laptop.... heh)

iPhone (all the screens are bad, just google it. blogs are truth!)

WiMax (everyone is wrong, because wireless providers have always shaped their business in our best interests as consumers! lol... ringtones)

Marketing (its so easy to hack a new kernel into your new N800! you can have your rss feeds disappear! your email client will randomly lose its ability to function! you can use a screwed up alpha web browser that mangles text input, and requires ini changes for easy scrolling!) perfect 30 second spot for the IT.

I'll even quote!

Sure it can. You just argue, for the sake of arguing. Stop being myopic and have a 2 sided conversation. Talking with you is like talking to a wall.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I agree. ;)

Obviously you haven't read my signature lately...

*cracks knuckles and chuckles*
Oh, by all means go right ahead.

Wrong, otherwise you'd take the time to actually QUOTE me.

Wrong again. Go read Apple's actual support forums!

Now where the phuck did I EVER say that? I'm speaking from a strict business-to-business viewpoint.

I think I've already said many, many, many, many, many, many times that Nokia needs a kick in the jimmy when it comes to marketing.
Again, I must refer you to my signature...

About phucking time you did. Too bad that has NOTHING to do with your points above.

Did they teach reading comprehension in the schools you went to?
Obviously not because you would soon see where I although I do love the Nokia Internet Tablet line as it currently exists, Nokia has made a schitt-load of bumbles and errors in actually MARKETING the tablet.
Show me where Apple has done ANYTHING to promote free and open source software outside of giving away Xcode on the Mac OS X install DVD?
It's one thing to create great products, it's another to make developing for those products next to impossible. Nokia allows devs to freely code not only for the N800 but their S60 line of cell phones too.
Now look 5-10 years down the road...which company's devices are people going to want to code for?
The one with the free SDK. At the moment that's not Apple for all the dumbest reasons in the world. If "stability" issues were really the main reason Apple's not officially promoting third-party application development then why the phuck does no other phone manufacturer on the planet support that?
Don't even try to say it's because the iPhone is somehow more stable than any other cell phone on the planet because it's not. Even dedicated Apple fanboi Leo Laporte has said that his crashes/reboots every once in a while, particularly in the first few weeks he owned it. Other reports have been posted as well across the internet, not just on "blogs" but on Apple's own support forums.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

*begins popping some Orville Redenbacher's*

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

*grabs a soda and passes Tex the butter and salt*

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Gotta go easy on the salt, and do you have any of that allegedly-good-for-you-margarine? :D

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Will "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter" do? My mommy... er, wife makes me use that stuff. :(

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

1. Wifi access points (oh just hack them! zomg! which you do on your laptop.... heh)
2. iPhone (all the screens are bad, just google it. blogs are truth!)
"...Not widespread"

http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/09/a...screen-issues/

Apple proactively found users and replaced their phones immediately NEXT DAY SHIPPING. Not 30+ Days later like Nokia. Nokia LOST my tablet after 34 days and decided to send me a new one.

3. Marketing (its so easy to hack a new kernel into your new N800! you can have your rss feeds disappear! your email client will randomly lose its ability to function! you can use a screwed up alpha web browser that mangles text input, and requires ini changes for easy scrolling!) perfect 30 second spot for the IT.


Market what? I'll help Nokia make a few advertisements for the N800.

"Visit YouTube. Don't hit play though, make sure its done streaming or else you'll have a 3-4fps slide show!."

"If you want an up to date browser, go ahead and install microb (FROM THE MAKERS OF FIREFOX). Unfortunately, you can't scroll correctly... it will just jump around to text fields and crash miserably on dynamic sites like jellyfish."

"Your email on the go! Once. Then thats about it."

"Get all your favorite news from your favorite sites! Twice. Then it disappears."

"Sync all your favorite music and podcas.... oh nevermind."

"Install GPE Suite so you can have contacts, but don't worry about syncing them though! Its so much better to have everything out of sync. Say hello to old friends you never thought you'd call!"

"Watch your favorite videos! Just make a few tweaks to your kernel so you can avoid terrible tearing."

4. Patched and fixed. Within 3 weeks. Lets not get started on IT2006 updates.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

That's some serious device hate ya got going there, man.

That's okay. I felt the same way about my old 1980 Cutlass. Shudder.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Lol. I haven't had the best experience with the N800.

Its got wonderful potential, but the iPhone is my current "teddy bear".

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Well, it was bound to happen sooner or later, but the debate (to a lesser degree) has spread outside the NIT community. There's a very short, incomplete comparison between the iPod Touch and the N800 over on Ars: Link

Not very in depth or informative, but it has sparked a growing conversation on the subject in the forums.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I'm thinking the cancerous "debate" might give Nokia more publicity than it's ready for. :D

Another guy Gets It. How many of us does that make now? 3? 4? :p

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Don't go there... :)

There are plenty of other posts in that article which reiterate the same points many have made in this thread, which is that the Apple products appeal more to the general consumer because Apple pays more attention to overall design of the device, ensuring everything about it is to a high standard. The general consumer does not care about SSH, or a super-dooper high resolution display... ease of use, high quality UI, the "cool" factor, even price are things that matter to the general consumer and these are things the N800 lacks.

How many of us does that make? I reckon we'll be talking at least a million by Christmas, easy. ;)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Mil, I don't think too many people are arguing the contrasts. It's the silly comparisons here that are arguable. The laughable "both products are virtually identical and occuply the exact same market segment" claims. The "Apple's products will stop production of N800s" remarks.

I read every comment in the other forum and for the most part they were well thought-out. A few small technical errors made by some, quickly corrected, and (here's the shocking part) no real nastiness or chest-thumping. Amazing. ;)

Oh, and I've come to understand that the promotional activity (or lack thereof) around the N800 is deliberate. Before anyone leaps to labeling that as stupid (as I have previously), there's also some sound reasoning behind it. But that's because they're different products with different goals.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

LOL, let's rename this thread to "The Highlander Contest: In the End, There Can Only be One".

No one is actually listening and processing the discussion seriously, it's just a yelling contest. The winner is the most persistent one pushing his view and repeating the same message over and over.

iball seems to be in the lead by a fair margin :)

I'm out.

PS: Yes, you can have your petty last word over me, cause I'm not replying...

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Off with his ^ head!

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I only hope for the best with the N800, and I also hope that Nokia proves me wrong. It's all potential now, but with some luck they'll start polishing what we have so far. They have it in them.

We have a wonderful community, minus a few loudmouths. I hate that I brought negativity, but I only get emotional because of my love for the IT and the open-source doodooheads. /hug ITT I'll check back with ya'll after a firmware or two ;)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Oh, c'mon, this is just too easy: WebKit.

Darwin - oh, damn, that's another.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

DarwinStreamingServer, also.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

You'll be back after ONE upgrade.

:D