Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I wouldn't take anything on any forum seriously. The iPod touch is a pretty sweet design. Like any product, wait for the second generation, or at least for the first software update.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Ahhhh , English and American ... Sharing a common language ? Not always ...

I say potato , you say potatoe ... Let's call the whole thing off .


To business .

I have ordered an iPod touch , and it will replace my 770 for almost everything . If I can get a VNC app to run on the iPod , the 770 will be permanently resting .

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I have an iPod touch and a 770, and am keeping both. They do different things.

And yes, If I write capitalization it in my browser it draws a red line under it and offers to correct it to use an 's' instead.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

i have had an iphone for almost 2 weeks now, and even though I'd thought I'd hate Safari when I first saw the demo, I'm using my 770 90% less these days.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Thanks for the pointer , I will give that a try . That should enable me to control a Windows machine , but if I want to use the VNC connection on my HiFidelio which is built into the device itself , I need to have my Windows machine connected to the HiFidelio , and then connect to the Windows VNC server from the iTouch , which seems a bit of a convoluted way of doing things .

Still , better than no VNC capabilities .

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Well I've just had a rather interesting lunch :)

I met three friends in a restaurant, one an MQ consultant (and ex Unix admin), another an IT security specialist (with a heavy Unix/Linux background) and the third a front office developer (perl, web dev etc. formerly a Unix administrator). All IT people, and all potential candidates for Nokia Tablets.

The front office developer brought along his hacked iPhone (which a colleague of his had just brought back to the UK from Boston) and we all had a look... I have to say it blows away the N800 in terms of usability, accessability and UI responsiveness. All applications worked and worked the same way, the gestures to perform actions such as deleting an email are intuitive and apps respond immediately - no pauses while the touchscreen fails to register or think about an event, no lag when displaying photos or videos (photo AND video scaling is impressive, the N800 even with mplayer is sadly put to shame [I blame the cruddy video bandwidth and lack of hardware acceleration]), and applications when started appear instantly.

I then pulled out my N800 and started Kagu, which inexplicably crashed (it locked up on the main scroll screen and I had to kill it, and now it's not starting at all). At this point it occurred to me that maybe Apple has a point when they try to restrict what software is installed on their devices! :) I also noticed how long it took apps - any app - to start on the N800 as apps start almost immediately on the iPhone whereas on the N800 the infoprint appears for several seconds before the application appears (how have Apple achieved this?) Then started the comments about my "steam driven technology" so I put it away having taken a severe verbal beating!

Everyone was impressed by the iPhone - even other restaurant diners were craning their necks for a look - while the big, fat, ugly N800 was derided. :(

Dunno what else to say really, just relating my experience of a side-by-side demonstration in front of technical people. God help Nokia selling this to mere mortals.... Chinook needs to at least match the iPhone UI in terms of appeal, usability, responsiveness and above all quality while the upcoming Nokia hardware needs to be small and light - the N800 is probably double the weight and thickness of the iPhone yet it seems less powerful than the iPhone.

While products such as the iPhone remain light years ahead of what Nokia are offering, nobody will take Nokia tablets seriously except a tiny fraction of the geek population (and the friends I met today are also geeks, but worryingly even they turned up their noses at the N800).

In the meantime I'm patiently waiting for the Chinook beta to appear... ;)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I defer to iBall's comment in another thread. Those IT professionals you lunch with may give the N800 a hard time at the table, but if they had to select a device to actually help them with their work, the iPhone won't be it.

I say that as an IT professional who uses his N800 in a work environment quite often. The iPhone flat cannot do nor will the current incarnation ever be able to do what I'm needing. ;)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

This is what worries me about Nokia's plans to perhaps compete in this market... I've had the iPhone for about a month now and I hope that whatever Nokia comes out next better match the iPhone in terms of speed and usability. Because if it doesn't, its already lost. What's funny is my "hacked" iPhone is running the older firmware and what is considered still to be an "unfinished" version of the software.

Seeing how both OS's are still in its infancy, Nokia is running a distant second.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I've heard different things about UI consistency on the iPhone (<spit!>). Things pertaining to screen rotation, keyboard usage, even basic "gestures" that vary or are simply inaccessible, depending on the applet you "run".

If slight delays in starting applications and a non-unified user interface are the only price to pay for an open platform, I'll gladly pay through the nose.

Besides, I'm of the opinion that the only thing a unified user interface achieves, is to restrict both what a user can do and what a developer wants to be done.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Two interesting articles (and commentary) I came across today, with some of the thoughtful analysis missing from the typical offering:

http://counternotions.com/2007/10/09...nce-for-apple/

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/ptech/1....ap/index.html

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Well I only looked at it over lunch, but I saw nothing that seemed to faze it (and I went through most of the standard apps, plus a few "extras" my friend had installed) and pretty much all the gestures seemed fluid and intuitive from what I could see - in fact I don't recall seeing any pop up menus for example, the UI is incredibly finger friendly.

They do say a fool and his money are easily parted! ;)

There's no reason why Nokia cannot provide fast application startup, a unified UI *AND* an open platform - if the UI falls apart due to community developers not following the Nokia UI standard, that isn't Nokias fault. The devices as they comes out of the box should be able to satisfy all of my requirements - if Apple can do it, Nokia should be up to the job too. So far they have only demonstrated they are not - you'd think the OS 2007 Hildon UI is from the Jurassic era when compared side-by-side with that of the iPhone. OS 2007? Maybe it should be OS 1997, or even OS 1987... ;)

Fingers crossed Chinook will add the gloss and sheen that is so desperately lacking in Hildon and the OS in general. Would I have made these comments 6 months ago? Probably not, but now that the bar has been set so high by Apple my opinion has had to change.

If the UI is designed correctly, I don't see why there should be any reason for conflict. The current OS 2007 UI - as it comes out-of-the-box - falls far short of being a consistent UI, it's as if Nokia forgot to write a style guide (or worse, didn't enforce it), and the situation only becomes worse as more Nokia approved applications (Skype, Video Center, FM Radio, Media Streamer) are installed as they're all different with their own little widgets, themes and means of control and navigation.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

It may be finger friendly, but I'm quite certain that it is not as consistent as the fanboi crowd wants us to believe.

You can't have it both ways: If Nokia dictates how developers should make their applications look and feel, it can no longer be called an open platform. And I don't want it that way; just one example: Horizon is a beautiful app (if not quite finished), yet its user interface breaks all Hildon conventions. Regardless, I cannot see a better way for tht application to be controlled than the way it is now. Should they be forced to comply to Nokia's idea of a user interface?

That's how open platforms work: without central control. Like it or leave it...

That last one was no joke; we're dealing with the fundamental philosophy of openness here: the developer is free to do what he wants. Period.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

If you give developers something decent to work with in terms of a UI toolkit and such, why wouldn't anyone use it? Nokia and Maemo have given everyone an ancient and somewhat mussed (in some cases) GTK toolkit to build on. This either means that a developer has to load his own libraries or stick to what the device already has. Maybe that's why the iPhone and the Touch are so damned responsive, all the apps use the same graphics libraries and other such things.

Nokia just needs to give better clay to the sculptors so they needn't fetch their own. ;)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Maybe so, but what I saw looked pretty consistent - far more so than the disjointed Nokia UI.

As I said, Nokia is not responsible for the UI that is used/abused by community developed applications, which is meant to imply that Nokia *IS* responsible for the UI on applications that it ships with the device and certifies for subsequent download.

Nokia is perfectly capable of enforcing a consistent UI on it's own device, and also when it sponsors or engages third-parties to create applications, but beyond that it has no ability (or right) to enforce the UI on community developers.

That said, if the UI is well designed then chances are the community developers will happily go along with what Nokia provide (by and large). If the native UI is good they'll use it, if it's not they'll abuse it. Even Nokia themselves abuse it, so what does that tell us? ;)

Agreed. But when the UI is well designed (and more importantly, well defined), the developer doesn't have to re-invent the wheel unless it's absolutely necessary, which probably applies in the case of Horizon. However with a good UI, examples such as Horizon will be the exception rather than the norm.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I get the feeling we're talking about different things here.

If you mean to say that Maemo/Hildon is a crappy GUI, then I'm with you all the way: It sucks dinosaur bollocks.

But if you're insisting that there should be only One True GUI on Nokia's Internet Tablets, then: Sorry, dude, you've lost me. I believe that, if anything, we should have more GUIs on the tablets: portable Gnome, OpenMoko, heck why not OpenEinstein. They're all good.

You see, the iPhone (<spit!>) is a consumer package: You pay for what you get, which is a lot of shiny, polished stuff, but what you see is what you get.

The tablets are tools to get stuff done. What the stuff is you want to get done, is up to you, not Nokia. And Nokia is -- admittedly slowly -- starting to grok that in a way that Apple sadly has lost. Sure, I b*tch about the lack of gloss, the crappiness of the GUI, the idiocy of Killer Firmwares, but the last thing I want is for my b*tching to result in Nokia going the Apple way.

Look at it this way: Every app that hangs your tablet, is (cue soppy music) a testimony of your freedom; every button that lags for half a second asserts you as a proud, non-fruity, independent computer user; every zany toolbar impudently proclaims: "I belong to a geek!"

Hold your head high! <snif! snif!>

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Mozilla (Firefox) has woken up about the mobile devices internet potential...
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...2194399,00.asp

N800 and iPhone are both mentioned there...

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Slightly off topic... but now you can iUnlock 1.1.1 version iPhone. Also iUnbrick is supported!
http://www.iphonesimfree.com/cgi-bin...e.pl?page=home

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I'm with you there - agreed. :)

No, I'm not saying there should be only one GUI, I'm saying that Nokia should ship a fantastic GUI and use it consistently with all the apps *they* ship and any applications they sanction from third parties.

Nokia should recommend a well documented style guide to the community, but should not enforce (only recommend) that style on the community - if a developer thinks they can do a better job with the GUI, nobody should stop them having a go, least of all Nokia.

My point is this: whatever applications Nokia produce, the GUI they use should be consistent and insanely great - it's the showcase that will sell devices. If a community developer then wants to release an application with a GUI which makes GEM look sophisticated, nobody has any right to stop them. If there is a community project to replace the whole Nokia GUI, fine, go right ahead - it's an open platform after all. :)

On the whole, a well designed GUI will be used and adhered to automatically by most developers without too much effort or cajoling. It's when that GUI is broken that developers start doing their own thing, which only serves to drive down the usability of the overall device.

I want gloss, non-crappy GUIs *AND* the Nokia (open) way!! I want it ALL! (And I can't see why I can't have it - seriously!) :)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

it has inconsistencies, but not real show stoppers and it is well thought out.

Of course it can. As long as they don't stop you from making it how you want to make it, they can say what they want. And I think they should.

Making something consistent is just a matter of making it really easy to do it the 'right way' and harder to do it differently. That way if you want to do it differently then you still can, but if you don't then you don't get it wrong accidentally.


The developer should always be free to do what he wants, as long as he is doing it intentionally. Then it is up to the user of the software to decide if they want the software that works differently to the rest of the system. If they do it would thrive, and if not then it would probably die.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

It says Mozilla has been released for N800. But it's still in beta...
right?

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

As repeatedly said, it's coming.

See statement above. ;)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I'd be more than happy to road test a Beta! :D

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I have been, too. :D :D

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

So what do you think.... does it gives us something to fight against the apple fanboys???

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Well, again, I can't get too deep into specifics. There are certainly some nice obvious enhancements but to me the most important aspect (and this is publicized on the maemo Chinook page) is the stage being set for the NEXT major update.

Also, I still think the Apple/N800 debate is mostly misguided and misses the intent of each device. But that's been hashed over enough. :D

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Sorry, but if Chinook doesn't address the major failings of the platform and at least achieve some sort of parity with Apple in terms of UI slickness, usability and cohesive design then I honestly don't think I'll be around for the next firmware update, let alone the next major update (another year or more away from now?)

Nokia have had enough time and oppurtunities to get this right, my patience has it's limits. Continual promises to get it right with the next release are beginning to grate now! ;)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Well, that's up to you Mil. Sorry if we lose you... :(

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Chinook will be "better than ever". I think/feel many people would be pleasantly surprised. (Although you can never please all the people all the time.) And it's not really relevant to talk about the "future future" - the future future will always be something else than the future.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

well, whatever the new "stage" is, it better be an innovation and not a copy cat. or is imitation what we're all hoping for?

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

As Nokia have publicly stated, there's nothing wrong with copying something if it's good! :)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Yes, there is: It means you can't come up with good stuff on your own.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Texrat,

I know you've reserved the right to hint and tease, and that you can't address certain things directly, so perhaps you can answer my question obliquely:

Let's say that I have an old cat (I do, actually). She's not well; the vet told me she's likely to die in about six months. Will I be able to use Chinook before my pet passes on?

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

ROFL.

Even with this oncoming migraine, you made me laugh.

And I can't answer, because ragnar will send Thoughtwaves of Increased Pain my way and I'm already reaching my limit...

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

A wild stab in the dark, new firmware and a new device in the first week of January 2008 - CES 2008 runs from Monday 7-10 January!

No doubt devices will be on sale during the previous weekend if history repeats! :) Oh, and if there is a separate hard-cover screen protector accessory being touted around at CES 2008 for the new device, please don't take a full 8-9 months before you put it on sale (like last time). Thanks.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I know nothing of Nokia's release plans but I would guess the N900(?) is done given it has passed the FCC test. And we know chinook SDK is in beta. So if you assume the new device will feature chinook and it's consumer oriented. Then, one would assume you would release it prior to the US Thanksgiving holiday, both OS and new device to capture the largest marketing opportunity in the US. This coupled with the recent price drop of the N800.

The N800 January launch was a surprise, but I had to convince my wife I needed to spend $400 after Christmas for a new toy. Not an easy thing to do.

My birthday is Nov. 14th so I'm betting somewhere around that date. At the very least our buddies at the FCC will shed some light on the device.

On a side note would it hurt Nokia to demo the new unit, or leak some information. Didn't hurt Apple any demoing a device that wasn't going to be released for 6 months. I don't think the iPhone would have sold as well if they hadn't. I would argue the release was anticlimactic to the build-up. But it does successfully stall the market for this type of device (competitors). For Apple that didn't have any products in the channel it worked well.

-- my thoughts

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Ah, cursed ragnar! His scurvy breath doth truly revile the nostrils, and his vicious Thoughtwaves can render even the most noble superhero weak and drive him to worship at the porcelain altar and pray for death. I too suffer from migraines, and today, curiously, had one of the more genle variety, though which it appears I could not only function well enough to get to work and read the forums but also managed to salvage my day by amusing you!

Happy as I am to entertain you, perhaps, tho, on another day when ragnar is occupied elsewhere, you might talk about what is involved with a major release and what you think the Nokia team are planning. Just your thoughts, no promises.

Mil's observation about the dates of CES in January being tied to the announcement makes sense to me. But then, so do theflew's thoughts about a November release. What say you? Can I sneak in a new toy before the holidays, or do I too have to convince my bride that I 'need' a new toy after them?

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

How can the N800 help with most people's work, though? There's no decent cross-solution VPN support, so I can't get access to my work email. There's no built-in or reasonably feature complete and reliable calendar with easy to configure synchronisation (I've had Outlook synchronising with GPE without touching the command line, but it's beyond the wit of your average user), there's no ..., there's no....

As you yourself have pointed out, this is an N-series device, not an E-series. So it's not aimed at business users. Which means (not disparingly) it's a toy. No-one *needs* a NIT. No-one will make more money by having a NIT. The same with an iPhone or an iPod Touch (look how similar they are ;-))

They are all devices which should be a pleasure to use, because they're adults' toys. That's fine. I like gadgets.

I like *playing* with the open nature of the NIT - whether on the PC side or on the device itself. I'd like *using* an iPhone or an iPod Touch as a media player.

No, but I suspect you're the minority: not many people will be able to use the N800 as something productive in their work environment either.

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I have access to a homegrown proprietary VPN tool, true, but there is no reason I can think of why any third party has not created one for general use. I see a lot of need, a lot of talk, and a lot of hacking here and there, but no cohesive effort. Disappointing. And no, I don't know why the tool I use is not made available to the public.

However, there ARE some VPN tools that people are using, and since we're talking IT pros, they don't seem too concerned about having to use xterm (another thing I doubt the iPhone will ever have) to utilize them. In addition, there are posts all throughout this forum of advanced users enjoying their N800s in an IT support capacity. Maybe I'm in the minority of a minority, but I challenge you: how many iPhone owners do you think are able to use the device to access work servers?

My point was that you're not going to be able to use an iPhone, much less an iPod, to do these things. So I was comparing/contrasting, not getting into the minute details of what the N800 can't do well or at all.

Bottom line, we are talking IT pros, not casual (or even regular business) users, and your post above seems to blue the lines...

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

and your post is yet another "but the N800 can do something the itouch can't do (if only someone else, not Nokia, would write the software so the N800 could do something the itouch can't do)"

you want to compare/contrast without discussing what the N800 can't do???

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

So is the target market for the N800 "IT Pros" who can/will use their devices at work? Wow, that's a _tiny_ market we're aiming for!

And what makes it even smaller is that most organisations - if they care anything about security - don't let WiFi networks any where near their internal corporate LAN, rendering the N800 useless for "IT Pro" work IMHO. Where I work, in the financial industry, my employer even goes so far as to actually jam the 2.4GHz WiFi radio spectrum within the premises preventing access to the numerous external WiFi hotspots located just yards from where I sit!

It's all very well saying IT Pros will use the N800 professionally (which is a laugh when you consider that Kismet - a potentially "Professional" piece of software for all sorts of industries - doesn't work properly because of faults in Nokia closed source firmware), however in my experience WiFi access to corporate networks is a very rare (and monumentally misguided) thing indeed.

The only time I use WiFi on my N800 is at home, and I use BT/3G "on the road" (but having just discovered that I've got a £30 charge coming my way from O2 for only a few days 3G/GPRS access, I need to find another network provider that doesn't gouge me just for accessing my webmail!!!) :D