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Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0

Quote:

Originally Posted by JulmaHerra (Post 1482813)

This is because you cannot use open sourcing to save dying platform. Open source should be there from the beginning and it needs robust community behind it, which requires some good faith instead of cynical infighting and clinging on to every single mistake/wrong/annoyance possible. Which is why I'm currently very skeptical if open sourcing would make any difference with Sailfish.

Another point of view is that open sourcing closed bits is something more than just changing labels in some papers. You need to know exactly what you are open sourcing, you need to be 100% sure there are nothing infringing other licenses and doing that research does cost time and at times money. Do it wrong and you end up in court and bankruptcy. On top of that, you need to have a way to organize everything related to that code, contributions, feedback etc etc. or whole open sourcing will result in utter failure and more "they cannot even do that right"-comments here and abroad. Still, they promised to open source many things and I do believe they will do it. Patience is a virtue.

So WebOS opensourcing did not help them? So LunaOS and LG's TVs using WebOS is fictional:
https://pivotce.com/2015/08/17/luneo...e-caffe-crema/
http://m.lg.com/uk/smarttv/webos (BTW there even tlremote client for WebOS based TV for sailfish by icoderus)

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0

Is this thread still about Sailfish OS 2.0?

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZogG (Post 1482815)

As I said in my previous reply to Copernicus, open sourcing as last desperate attempt to save a dying platform almost never works. This example is how another company took the code and adapted it to completely different product than WebOS was designed in the beginning. To counter one single example of not-entirely-failed open sourcing there are numerous other attempts that failed (ie. Symbian). Without companies to back up development, communities rarely can run development very far.

If WebOS was open source from the very beginning, the situation might be much better in that regard. Which is why I do hope Jolla open sources as much as they can, though I don't believe that anything they do improves relations with community anymore.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0

Quote:

Originally Posted by JulmaHerra (Post 1482819)

That the exact point that the talks about open and community and opensource is from before release of the phone, but they are not here. And sure there are always people that would be displeased. The question is there real reason for that or not ;)
Btw Symbian was killed not only because of that, but because it was too outdated at the moment(should they opensource earlier when they have devs)+ Elop.
Maybe the problem of Jolla is that they lose devs and do not gain new is because they still did not opensource, did you think of that?

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0

Problem of Jolla is that they have to balance between ideology and reality, which is something communities don't have to take into account. Tablet is late 3rd time now and it's likely they have their hands full with that. So no resources for open sourcing, or we won't have Tablet even for Christmas. But who cares about products, we want the code!

It doesn't really matter if people are displeased for real reason or not. What matters is how it shapes the attitudes in community in general and IMO Jolla had an uphill battle on that front since from the beginning. If even good intentions are turned against them on first opportunity, I do not see how anything related to "having real reason" or "not having a real reason" makes any difference anymore. After all, humans are not that rational beings. It's like buying a car - choice is made by emotion and "rational" reasoning is invented afterwards... :P

Symbian was outdated, but still, open sourcing it didn't help a bit. It was primarily Nokia project, developed with Nokia funding for Nokia products and died instantly when Nokia ditched it. Anyway, I have hard time accepting your argument about Jolla losing devs because not everything is open at this very moment, as there are not many contributions even to those parts that are open and require attention. We hear constant crying about browser hoggin up memory, but yet, only couple devs contribute to it. Being that way, I'm not daydreaming about everything suddenly turning better just by open sourcing more. Like it or not, world is run by money and without it there won't be relevant development towards consumer grade products.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0

i prefer that,if they decide ( after balancing advantages and disadvantages,in order to not break economy of company and investiments) to open it, and i hope so ( only from a superficial and unexpert PoV), they will do it well and with time it needs..i didnt think about this arguments thanks Julma

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0

Quote:

Originally Posted by JulmaHerra (Post 1482825)

today product is not something you buy one time and that's it. it's ecosystem (you pay for apps and you do not want to switch platforms to buy same apps again right?), it's about support, updates, communication. Even cars today get updates (Tesla and all new cars), so it's not one time thing. You do research and you do think forward(if you are not one throwing money for no reason).
And loyalty to company or support from community comes from several reasons: PR(promises and so on), communication, support and mostly important deeds. I see it as "respect", that you can gain temporary by small actions here and there, but we know person(company in our case) better with time. Deeds vs words, mutual respect and co-working only gains points. And one of the important things are patterns. You know person first by what they say, how they look and stereotypes, but after we learn their character(this is the pattern i'm talking about). And as I see it the problem here is not in delays and f#$%# ups, but how they handled. You can still say there are worse or we'll see, but if some things never change and they keep repeating itself it will turn the red light to me. Not saying it's permanent, but as the FIRST WAVE PRE-ORDERS of Jolla Phone i wanted to believe and support, and I gave them a lot of chances, i tried to explain and communicate with them. But i do respect myself and after things are not changing 3 years later and same problems are repeating themselves.....fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me :P
3 Years is a long time especially in mobile business and can you tell where exactly Jolla improved (not talking about UI and SW changes) but in matter of community relations and promises and communication? Few weeks earlier we had sh#t storm about silence from Jolla regarding delay and they provided some info(later than should be done but still) and only few weks later there is again silence. Like they do not learn anything, same as people who keep believing.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZogG (Post 1482832)

Quote:

3 Years is a long time especially in mobile business and can you tell where exactly Jolla improved (not talking about UI and SW changes) but in matter of community relations and promises and communication? Few weeks earlier we had sh#t storm about silence from Jolla regarding delay and they provided some info(later than should be done but still) and only few weks later there is again silence. Like they do not learn anything, same as people who keep believing.

During previous s***tstorm I asked, what is it you want them to communicate, if they have nothing concrete to announce? "There is problem with x and y, we need to fix them." Yeah right, everybody knows already that there are problems and that they need to be fixed. Ambiguous announcements don't do any good and arbitrary schedules neither as they will lead yet another disappointment when something unexpected prevents delivery on that schedule and at least part of community takes those estimates as God's promises to His people. So, it's mostly about expectations - you seem to be one of those expecting every single detail to be poured out for gossip and bemoaning. I expect delivery above everything else. So even if I'm definitely not happy with yet another delay (as I actually have a need for that Tablet), I don't want some communication just for the sake of it. I want communication only when there is something relevant to disclose. Chit chat is luxury for those who don't have anything more important to do. But that's only my take, your take is different.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZogG (Post 1482815)

So WebOS opensourcing did not help them?

No. Not open sourcing.

Dumping tons of dirt cheap TouchPad tablets on the market (fire-sale style) helped WebOS. People were hacking it like crazy even before releasing WebOS free. :-)

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0

Quote:

Originally Posted by JulmaHerra (Post 1482833)

Still, the product is in the center of everything - no amount of pr, respect, good deeds, ecosystem or communication will help if product itself is not improving. Sailfish has been improving a lot. There are things that still need attention, but if you only concentrate on bits important to you and disregard everything else that has happened with the platform, you are not painting the whole picture - this is why I don't really recognize my own device from descriptions of some posters here. It's all negative, completely, utterly negative concentrating on everything that can be turned to negative without even a hint to anything even remotely positive. That's what makes this place quite tiresome at times and that's why I have lost most of my faith in communities.

As for comparison to cars, to be successful, the car needs to be good in what it's intended to do. If it's not, there will be no brand loyalty, no matter how much effort is put into communication. However, being a Saab owner I do recognize the pain of not being able to tinker with everything in car when manufacturer has deep sixed and it's designed in certain fashion. But ultimately, the product needs to perform, it's the baseline on top of which everything else is built.

During previous s***tstorm I asked, what is it you want them to communicate, if they have nothing concrete to announce? "There is problem with x and y, we need to fix them." Yeah right, everybody knows already that there are problems and that they need to be fixed. Ambiguous announcements don't do any good and arbitrary schedules neither as they will lead yet another disappointment when something unexpected prevents delivery on that schedule and at least part of community takes those estimates as God's promises to His people. So, it's mostly about expectations - you seem to be one of those expecting every single detail to be poured out for gossip and bemoaning. I expect delivery above everything else. So even if I'm definitely not happy with yet another delay (as I actually have a need for that Tablet), I don't want some communication just for the sake of it. I want communication only when there is something relevant to disclose. Chit chat is luxury for those who don't have anything more important to do. But that's only my take, your take is different.

i agree with u with all,except for last periods. yeah i am positive with works made by jolla ,as i said i really like sf 2.0 apart for cover buttons wich are a step back imo. however i think we cant seriously claim that communications is well done. it has to be improved, and quickly. relative small developers team are doing great things at jolla. on the other hand communication is lacking, i dont know who are the culprits, but is a fact. isnt so irremediable like someone here have said. they have created good link with community but they are also doing big mistakes right now. i can understand delay, but i think that if someone has given money to you,cause believes u, u have to communicate as much as you can. so i would expect communication without people have to ask info about process, and saying whats good and also what is not going as well. i dont have backed tablet but if i had i would be disappointed not for waiting (even if i could be tired to wait) but for lacking of transparency. you have problem with display or with something else? i expect you to tell anything to me, as i suppose u do with inverstors, cause i have supported u on faithful.who dont want updates simply can read every tot period,as he likes,but in this case less is not more...but i think they can improve..maybe they just have made a step longer than leg and nlw they have lot of things to do...but if i stay here and use jolla phone is cause i trust them. otherwise i had better to take off boat