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-   SailfishOS (https://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=52)
-   -   First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0 (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=95923)

pichlo 2015-09-08 22:47
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by catbus (Post 1481672)
More memory and no swap? ;)
An excellent suggestion.

One last question: how exactly do you suggest to achieve that on my Jolla? ;)

(Actually, my main PC up to September 2013 had 1GB RAM and no swap and it never ran out of memory, despite habitually running some quite heavy applications. Just the antivirus alone took about 30%. That a mobile phone with the same amount of RAM cannot manage even three running apps is a scandal that screams "incompetence" loudly and clearly for the whole world to hear.)

bluefoot 2015-09-08 23:48
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
A lot of people in this thread are acting like big OOM & resource issues and the handling of them, poor performance and unreliability are something new to them or new to this update. i can only assume they've either not used sailfish much or at all prior to (pre)2.0 or were hoping that it would be some kind of magic bullet ... or was the already chronic situation really made that much worse? i've yet to try it as i'm away and 'hacking' the update is the last thing i want to do. but for those who have tried it and already took a dim view of the status quo, what's the state of play with 1.1.9 ... could it really be worse in those respects, or were people just being very naive about what 2.0 might bring. Tbh I'm done with Sailfish if resource handling gets worse ... it's almost intolerable as it is.

wormdrummer 2015-09-09 02:51
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Are their any improvements to the email client as part of the new release?

Bundyo 2015-09-09 03:32
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1481675)
An excellent suggestion.

One last question: how exactly do you suggest to achieve that on my Jolla? ;)

(Actually, my main PC up to September 2013 had 1GB RAM and no swap and it never ran out of memory, despite habitually running some quite heavy applications. Just the antivirus alone took about 30%. That a mobile phone with the same amount of RAM cannot manage even three running apps is a scandal that screams "incompetence" loudly and clearly for the whole world to hear.)
Big chunk of that RAM is taken by the Android support. Killing it gives you 50% free, which is okay for a number of concurrent tasks. :)

As for the 1GB RAM PC - do you run a browser in it? It will swallow your RAM in one go, especially Chrome :)

TemeV 2015-09-09 06:05
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluefoot (Post 1481680)
A lot of people in this thread are acting like big OOM & resource issues and the handling of them, poor performance and unreliability are something new to them or new to this update. i can only assume they've either not used sailfish much or at all prior to (pre)2.0 or were hoping that it would be some kind of magic bullet ... or was the already chronic situation really made that much worse? i've yet to try it as i'm away and 'hacking' the update is the last thing i want to do. but for those who have tried it and already took a dim view of the status quo, what's the state of play with 1.1.9 ... could it really be worse in those respects, or were people just being very naive about what 2.0 might bring. Tbh I'm done with Sailfish if resource handling gets worse ... it's almost intolerable as it is.
I guess this whole discussion is my fault, because i was giving (false) hope of improvements to the situation. Sorry about that. (I didn't notice that an app might be killed even if the cover stays there. I sent my phone to warranty service already so I can't verify the situation).

So I guess nothing has changed, neither worse nor better.

ste-phan 2015-09-09 07:30
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by juiceme (Post 1481637)
Forget about swap on flash media, whether it be on raw disk partition or on top of filesystem...
Swap on flash is a BAD IDEA and it WILL kill your flash.
Probably but how soon?
Since I have stopped overclocking I am now trying to kill my SD with swapping.
I am a happy user of the flopswap script to alternate between two swap partitions on N900. :p

MartinK 2015-09-09 07:39
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluefoot (Post 1481680)
A lot of people in this thread are acting like big OOM & resource issues and the handling of them, poor performance and unreliability are something new to them or new to this update. i can only assume they've either not used sailfish much or at all prior to (pre)2.0 or were hoping that it would be some kind of magic bullet ...
I think this is because many people had the N9, which had the same amount of RAM but managed to fluently multitask much better and without killing apps left and right (IIRC you had to try quite hard to make it kill an app due to memory exhaustion).

So people are asking why the Jolla can't manage as much with similar amount of resources, considering that the OS and apps themselves provide similar functionality to Harmattan and it's apps. Well, or quite often actually less functionality (Tweatian is for example still unfortunately nowhere near to what QNeptunia managed back then, no comparable event screen, no SIP calling,...). And of course Harmattan managed to do all that on a Maemo 5-6 based franken-OS with X handling the GUI!

So people kinda expect that a new distro with faster CPU and cutting edge components (newer kernel, systemd, Wayland!) should manage at least as much as Harmattan on the N9...

BTW, anyone can provide any insights how Harmattan managed to cope with the 1 GB of RAM ? I know it already used an early version of ZRAM and did some crazy things with OpenGL context reuse to reduce memory consumption, but would be interested to know if there was more stuff like this. :)

bluefoot 2015-09-09 08:23
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
@MartinK ... I know, but a lot of people were previously ignoring the elephant in the room or, preposterously, claiming that Sailfish was fast, lightweight, optimised and reliable. I was wondering what caused the sudden reality check.

The true believers are either absent or conspicuously quiet for once. Usually the fair knights of the community rush to defend the honour of the damsel in distress (Jolla/Sailfish) .... that isn't really happening this time. People are arguing about the details, but not denying the problem or its magnitude. I just find it strange, as Sailfish has been woeful in the previously stated regards either since its inception or since the Qt update for the OOM (10 months ago).

pichlo 2015-09-09 08:52
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bundyo (Post 1481690)
Big chunk of that RAM is taken by the Android support. Killing it gives you 50% free, which is okay for a number of concurrent tasks. :)
That commonly repeated excuse may apply in most people's cases but not in mine. My Jolla has never been tarnished with Android and will never be, if I can help it.

Quote:
As for the 1GB RAM PC - do you run a browser in it? It will swallow your RAM in one go, especially Chrome :)
Chrome is a Google product and as such I would never touch it with a barge pole but yes, of course I regularly used a browser - Firefox in my case - with more than three tabs open without FF ever having to reload any of them when I switched between them. I am not a big fan of keeping hundreds of tabs but if a browser cannot keep 5-6 open at the same time then something is terribly wrong.

Look, instead of speculations, how about some hard numbers.
Here are two 'free' reports.

Code:
---
| SailfishOS 1.1.7.28 (Björnträsket) (armv7hl)
'---
[nemo@Dinghy ~]$ free
            total      used      free    shared    buffers    cached
Mem:        825664    725376    100288      0      6516      200052
-/+ buffers/cache:    518808    306856
Swap:      627516    102652    524864
[nemo@Dinghy ~]$ free
            total      used      free    shared    buffers    cached
Mem:        825664    570696    254968      0      6516      200416
-/+ buffers/cache:    363764    461900
Swap:      627516    102652    524864
[nemo@Dinghy ~]$
In both cases, Terminal and some background processes were running, including the Meecast, Call Recorder and SysMon daemons. In the first case, Browser was running as well with one tab open showing this thread. That may account for the 150 MB difference but how on earth do you account for the 570 MB base?

Just think about it. The bare OS plus a couple of measly daemons consume 570 out of 825 MB RAM! That's 69%. For just the OS! With no applications running. On my PC, the bare OS, when I disabled the anti-virus, took less than 140 MB, or about 14%.

And this is supposed to be on a mobile device, one that the developers knew it was going to run with limited resources. My PC was a 9 years old laptop, running a modern, unoptimised OS designed for quadcore machines with 8 times as much memory as I was able to provide. How is this even possible?

ste-phan 2015-09-09 10:30
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1481728)
That commonly repeated excuse may apply in most people's cases but not in mine. My Jolla has never been tarnished with Android and will never be, if I can help it.



Chrome is a Google product and as such I would never touch it with a barge pole but yes, of course I regularly used a browser - Firefox in my case - with more than three tabs open without FF ever having to reload any of them when I switched between them. I am not a big fan of keeping hundreds of tabs but if a browser cannot keep 5-6 open at the same time then something is terribly wrong.

Look, instead of speculations, how about some hard numbers.
Here are two 'free' reports.

Code:
---
| SailfishOS 1.1.7.28 (Björnträsket) (armv7hl)
'---
[nemo@Dinghy ~]$ free
            total      used      free    shared    buffers    cached
Mem:        825664    725376    100288      0      6516      200052
-/+ buffers/cache:    518808    306856
Swap:      627516    102652    524864
[nemo@Dinghy ~]$ free
            total      used      free    shared    buffers    cached
Mem:        825664    570696    254968      0      6516      200416
-/+ buffers/cache:    363764    461900
Swap:      627516    102652    524864
[nemo@Dinghy ~]$
In both cases, Terminal and some background processes were running, including the Meecast, Call Recorder and SysMon daemons. In the first case, Browser was running as well with one tab open showing this thread. That may account for the 150 MB difference but how on earth do you account for the 570 MB base?

Just think about it. The bare OS plus a couple of measly daemons consume 570 out of 825 MB RAM! That's 69%. For just the OS! With no applications running. On my PC, the bare OS, when I disabled the anti-virus, took less than 140 MB, or about 14%.

And this is supposed to be on a mobile device, one that the developers knew it was going to run with limited resources. My PC was a 9 years old laptop, running a modern, unoptimised OS designed for quadcore machines with 8 times as much memory as I was able to provide. How is this even possible?

I am not an expert, but I have learned that OS systems take memory like for disc caching or some prefetching task when it is available (as opposed to let it just rest and look cool). So I'd be surprised if all of that 570 MB would go to vital base OS tasks.

In the free command above the amount of memory available for your applications is -/+ buffers/cache and still ~461 MB and ~306 MB respectively.
That should be more than enough available memory to smart Sailfish programmers? :)

On the other hand the Android VM has only 512MB installed, I suppose that is a disaster in terms of modern Android RAM expectations. Users will have to cherry pick their Android apps to avoid out of memory situations.
The sooner Android users need 3GB and want 6GB , the better for Samsung, so they can start selling flagship phones again.

http://global.samsungtomorrow.com/sa...b-lpddr4-dram/

m4r0v3r 2015-09-09 11:16
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
whoever got rid of swipe down to lock was a fool.

seiichiro0185 2015-09-09 11:28
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by m4r0v3r (Post 1481740)
whoever got rid of swipe down to lock was a fool.
I agree :) Fortunately there's a patch for that.

m4r0v3r 2015-09-09 11:35
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
right now its not an issue because I dont use my Jolla, but when 2.0ish arrives to the Nexus 5 itll be well received.

itdoesntmatt 2015-09-09 12:08
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
guys but its only mine that doesnt update for twitter and fb feed or even yours?

seiichiro0185 2015-09-09 12:12
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by itdoesntmatt (Post 1481749)
guys but its only mine that doesnt update for twitter and fb feed or even yours?
I also don't get any updates from twitter in the events page. I also tried to delete the account and recreate it but nothing so far. Hope they make this possibe again in SFOS 2.0...

itdoesntmatt 2015-09-09 12:17
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
and for facebook?

seiichiro0185 2015-09-09 12:21
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by itdoesntmatt (Post 1481752)
and for facebook?
I have no facebook account, so can't check that.

parasemic 2015-09-09 12:22
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
wasnt fb api nuked?

itdoesntmatt 2015-09-09 12:30
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
i find that carousel is absolutely redondant and useless. i would have preferred to set with left edge events view, and with right edge the multitask manager, leaving the possibility to use cover function without that horrible,uncomfortable button.
and sure, without carousel they would have implemented something as left swipe to delete notification, like coderus patch for previous versions,wich is very usefull and beautiful (like wp)... i like changes in sfos ui but i guess they are using too much button instead of swipes. if i wanted buttons i would have bought an android.
and just enbarassing the missing text selection with browser..we have to rely to 3d part developer for this basic implementation.
just disappointed

bluefoot 2015-09-09 12:41
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by itdoesntmatt (Post 1481757)
and just enbarassing the missing text selection with browser..we have to rely to 3d part developer for this basic implementation.
just disappointed
I can't believe they still haven't made any effort to fix the most elementary stuff like this (even though as you say a patch is available). They should have formed a dedicated team for fixing basic functions and bugs ages ago. But there just seems to be paralysis.

Can someone remind me when the next announcement that Sailfish is open for business for licensing is scheduled for? It must be soon. It's so ready, and the OEMs will be enthused by another missive.

skanky 2015-09-09 12:53
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by itdoesntmatt (Post 1481749)
guys but its only mine that doesnt update for twitter and fb feed or even yours?
1.1.9.28 is now available for early adopters. The release notes state that this is a known issue and will be fixed in the next release (1.2).

coderus 2015-09-09 12:57
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
https://together.jolla.com/question/...-early-access/

itdoesntmatt 2015-09-09 12:57
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
its very unbelievable for me. they could have use coderus patch or finding another way..who cares of (wasting time) animation when i cannot do basic things? i like jolla, i like sfos, i think is very beautiful,but for example, they delete cover swipes, against opinions of most users...so its ok, but dont tell its people powered, or together,because its not true. i am tired of unproper use of words, open, together,soon... the average sfos user is not stupid, cause its os not for all...for now.. i am jolla fan, but i dont like this jokes neither to be taken for the fool... sure,sfos is their creation, but if they want to do things Like apple,microsoft or google sure they can, just be clear..unlike is another abused word, in the last period

coderus 2015-09-09 12:59
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
https://together.jolla.com/question/...ineheminlampi/

Bundyo 2015-09-09 13:10
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
So, who is going to make the tablet-only settings in Events view into a global patch? :D

itdoesntmatt 2015-09-09 13:11
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
guys a question, having update system to 1.19.28 with a modification of version in store client ,forcing update. all works well, but it is now system someway different from normal update for early adopters? the results are the same of it may be any difference? thanks

skanky 2015-09-09 13:13
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bundyo (Post 1481766)
So, who is going to make the tablet-only settings in Events view into a global patch? :D
Phone version of that functionality is in the next release, so I'll probably wait for that - esp. as I'm not in the early adopters anyway. :D

Copernicus 2015-09-09 13:38
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
And, here's the blog entry for 2.0 being released to early access users:

https://blog.jolla.com/sailfish-os-2...-access-users/

It pretty much contains all the same material that went into the posts on TJC. :)

coderus 2015-09-09 13:44
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bundyo (Post 1481766)
So, who is going to make the tablet-only settings in Events view into a global patch? :D
I will release my patches this week.

itdoesntmatt 2015-09-09 14:11
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
i want to say that indeed mention on twitter works as usually, bug seems to involve only feed

parasemic 2015-09-09 14:19
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
id hesitate to call it a bug rather than missing feature as theres no trace of the feed itself

late88 2015-09-09 15:27
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Code:
--
| SailfishOS 1.1.9.28 (Eineheminlampi) (armv7hl)
'---
[nemo@Jolla ~]$ pkcon install mce-tools
Asennetaan
Jonotetaan
Käynnistetään
Virkistetään ohjelmaluetteloa
Kysellään
Ratkaistaan riippuvuuksia
Vakava virhe: mce-tools-1.51.2.1-1.49.1.armv7hl tarvitsee m
ce = 1.51.2.1-1.49.1, mutta sen asentaminen ei onnistu
[nemo@Jolla ~]$
How to install mce-tools in 1.1.9.28?

vitaminj 2015-09-09 15:36
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
A few observations:

The public version seems to have "swipe down to close" in the gestures options? Without any patches. Falling-away animation is fun!

I really like all the new transitions etc. The pulley select one needs to be significantly faster though (but not removed entirely).

Unlock - time needs to appear at the same time as the fade, not after it. I like the animation, again, but it needs to be tightened.

Events swipe-from-left is a bit of a finger-stretch - if there's an option to make L and R swipes do different things, ideally there'd be a toggle for swapping them (inc. for left-handed users)

I like that you can now launch loads of apps at once from the launcher without loaded apps stealing focus.

Can't remove sailfish-tutorial "politely" as it wants to remove a load of other (essential) packages with it!

Glad that feeds and especially toggles in Events will be in the next version - @coderus you must be pleased and relieved at the same time!

Mikkosssss 2015-09-09 15:46
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by late88 (Post 1481793)
How to install mce-tools in 1.1.9.28?
Try pkcon refresh

bluefoot 2015-09-09 15:46
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
**You will see dimmed app covers when they are closed due to low memory. This way, you can continue to access/relaunch the app from Home.

This is so dishonest. I was wondering how they'd spin the change, and they went with fud. The idea is clearly to try and sweep the problem under the rug so that it isn't so blatantly obvious that Sailfish has terrible memory consumption and handling of it.

parasemic 2015-09-09 15:48
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vitaminj (Post 1481794)
A few observations:

The public version seems to have "swipe down to close" in the gestures options? Without any patches. Falling-away animation is fun!
The patch is for swipe locking down from home screen.

late88 2015-09-09 15:52
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikkosssss (Post 1481795)
Try pkcon refresh
Of course this worked, thanks. I feel a bit stupid right now :)

HtheB 2015-09-09 16:02
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vitaminj (Post 1481794)
A few observations:

The public version seems to have "swipe down to close" in the gestures options? Without any patches. Falling-away animation is fun!
It was already there....
There is no Swipe to lock ;)

vitaminj 2015-09-09 16:38
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Oh yes, sorry. I misunderstood some of the alarm of people trying the upgrade early!

I've also tried most of the patches made in the last couple of days - they all seem good (maybe some are a bit harsh with entirely killing animations rather than just severely shortening them) - I hope Jolla takes a look at them and incorporates the ideas.

zlatko 2015-09-09 16:49
Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 
Sailfish UI 2.0 is GOOD that makes me consider switching back to Jolla as my main device despite of the poor HW and build quality!!! Only lack of good native offline maps stops me!
Please Jolla - find a way to put your OS on a hardware that matches it!


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