Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

i so far disagree with you. i find 2.0 ui a great improvement compared to 1.0. only thing i really miss is cover swipe,and some details like pull menu always available to delete notifications. for keyboard i find it well done, even if i surely miss a thing: Swype writing mode.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

i agree with u but i guess they have simply
exagerated with hype about it. now its difficult to make users really happy.

and let me say a thing more: i am not referring to you smokku, but here someone have Just some hate vs jolla. i can understand that promise or some bad behaviour have just left with bitter mouth..but maybe have to deal with the fact they are young and small so we can forgive them for it ( but not forgive facts). they are not and they dont pretend to be perfect. its good that we show dissense for things in order to improve then, we are not groupie, but i guess we just have to see also positive and things that are well done, in order to enjoy this community experience. critics to build something are wellcome, critics to only destroy arent. i am talking about me,of course

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Thanks for that. I was not expecting a different behaviour so it did not occur to me to even try.

If they could put one menu item in there, why not two? The one that I miss is "Update". One thing I like about Jolla is that notifications do update (for example, unread emails: if you read/delete new emails on another machine and wait, you will notice the number changing on your Jolla), but it would be nice to be able to trigger it manually rather waiting 30 minutes for the next background update.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

I think this update was mostly to have same UI on tablet and phone.
And it always amaze me how people keep telling that after update everything is quicker and faster and smoother and not lagging like ti was before. But...
1)If it smooth on update X and lagging on X-1 update, how the hell when X+1 introduced, suddenly X is lagging one? (this loop is not logical at all)
2)You know that update restarts your phone and as well probably optimize few things(btrfs and so on) so it would work better for sometime as it's kind of "fresh install" =)
As about UX. i see someone compared here to Apple introducing pitch to zoom and as it was not something intuitive. But it was, because it took you 1 second to understand and get used for it. It came naturally and that's what UX about.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Same thing happens easily with N9. Also, it can also happen with power button. On my job I occasionally use Samsung XCover 2 (dreadful thing) which has lock code enabled but it goes right to the unlock-screen when woken up. Because of this I have many times almost called to emergency number unintentionally.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Intuitive I would call "press blurred out area to cancel or return to previous" on the N900 with Maemo OS.
Nobody needed to tell me that.
For the same reason I am now pressing the blurred out area on Sailfish 2.0 trying to bring up favorites, it would just be logical to find it there but there is nothing.

Pinch to zoom like holding the phone with one hand and using two fingers to zoom in or out: I would call it useful, smart and easy but not intuitive: and I wonder how many people just found this out by themselves as if it were naturally.
Same goes for the swirl to zoom on the N900 (browser only): somebody needed to tell me that but of both learned methods I find the N900 method more intuitive.

Edit: within those apprehended moves you have then intuitive gestures like close fingers to make smaller, open fingers to make bigger. Or swirl clock wise to bring closer (like screw tighter) and swirl counter clock wise to zoom out (loosen the screw).

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Well, there are some quite significant changes under the hood, such as switching to GStreamer 1.x and the previous update switched to GCC 4.8 as the default compiler. It could be better (the Qt 5 version is getting more outdated by the day, not to mention other critical OS components) but stuff is definitely moving in the right direction. :)

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Disagree. Actually they have somewhat disconnected the app covers from the multitasking aspect.
Since 2.0 preview, app covers are finally plenty but at the same time they have been promoted to icon placeholders for closed applications.
Before, as part of the proper multitasking system, those app covers were definitely acting as indicators and control items for running applications.


Same here.
And my feeling is that the system is less fluent and tolerant to multi tasking. In 2013 it might have been smoke an mirrors tricks but the general impression is that it is now less multitasky.
Even the blocky new remorse timer now commands: you keep watching me for 5 seconds, don't leave yet to another task.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Ahh, that. OK, I agree with you there. Annoying but not enough to warrant a RIP, IMO.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Here is an old video showing fading effect going from maximized applications to minimized.
I could have watched that all day and would never expect it would be gone in 2015.

1) Seamless swipe: "fade to minimized" - effect -> today not anymore thanks to some added curtain effect

2) Concurrent animation of the fading maximized version and the video on the app cover -> today no more, as soon as you start to swipe to minimize the app, the large, fading version freezes and only the cover plays.

3) Despite those "useless" efects I felt there was less chance any of those 3 streams getting interrupted by OOM as was introduced end of 2014 (a year later) -> today especially the internet radio stream might become paused

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTA2a5pOlFc

Now try this again on the 2.0 preview version to compare with the current situation. Boring, isn't it?

Certainly there is a lot to like in 2.0 preview but at the same time Sailfish OS is shacking off its natural cool factor rapidly.

Cover swipe actions going M.I.A. , the irritating remorse timer , cool multi tasking animation effects (nobody cared for?)..

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

one thing i still dont understand is that horrible curtain animation indeed of fade effect. and sure, i have patched that horrible freezing like remorse animation and even the animation when you double tap with locked. phone. i dont understand why they have changed this things in order to make life more difficult.. the most important mistake, however, is the changing cover swipe with button ..i have also patched it, but i wait for nodevel implement ,in addiction of pull up, pulldown menu for cover, moving one button icon on top of cover,and one of bottom..

i thing that in jolla there is a problem. they are based on community suggestion but they heard only what they like. otherwise such appreciated features hadnt been removed.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

That doesn't hurt me, I would even say that's normal. They are "product" focused. Customers complaints can only be taken into account for a part. Otherwise...you create Android, a product with no personality at all.

I think they have a vision of what SFOS should be, probably a roadmap of coming features and they have to stay stuck to this path.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

romu why without personality? maybe without it are product copied by android,wich have a style that i dont like,however. i can understand your arguments but if they had an idea of how sailfish has to be, it wouldnt make sense adding and removing characteristic features that are there since the beginning and also apprecciated.. on the other hands you could not blind in your arrogance, bacause you need to sell the product, unless u want to end like old nokia. straight on its way, straight against the wall...its good they try different think in order to experience reactions, paying attention to discern whether a critic is from " being use to " ( wich needs some time time, after that u appreciate new solutions) or when its related to a real, opinable but reasonable, discomfort of new solutions

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Those premium features we came to appreciate and that made up for initial and current shortcomings weren't there because Jolla staff did not like them.

I think removing those features must be hard for them as well especially if the changes are dictated by external investors that have tested the phone a week or two next to their main Android / iPhone.

Most likely a lot would be explained if we could get insight in the viewpoints from Intex India. Why they liked to have an alternative next to Android and on which terms they have negotiated a partnership with Jolla.

"Intex Technologies Head, Mobile Business, Sanjay Kalirona told at the Mobile World Congress Shanghai 2015 to Indiatimes:

"We plan to launch the first Sailfish device in November. It will be 4G-enabled and will come under the sub-10K price range" "

10K rupee = 133 Euro. :eek:

I guess that even in India that is not the price level at which people expect "unlike, privacy aware, gesture based fancy OS" Just cheap smartphone with same as Android functionality for slightly less money?

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Ohhh... You touched the point.
This one single change annoyed me the most.
Yes, Yes... I now you will eat me now, "because the change is so small"...
But it annoyed me every single time I switched apps... And annoyances accumulate... You don't even notice, when you are angry for no apparent reason... So called "death by thousand cuts".

And there are more of these little changes that annoy a user every single time, by a little bit... And even more with every single "upgrade"...

Until enough is enough...
http://goo.gl/pC4ZQy

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

i expressed concept in a wrong way. i didnt mean they "like" but rather "they want", to intend not only what they appreciate more,but even what they have to do in order to reach their aim (contract, partnership)

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

I actually had use for this animation: as soon as you started horizontally swiping the application it started to fade.

That made an excellent screen dimmer for checking web pages in the dark. Swipe a few mm and hold you thumb to dim.

And then somebody with less imagination took it away.

Naturally we feel annoyed.

It smelt like potential in the morning
and turned into compromise in the evening.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Sorry for going off topic, but you instantly reminded me about https://xkcd.com/1172/

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

ah?
I don't know why they changed it. Was there any problem comparable to "CPU overheating" in the good old fade animation when minimizing an application?
Did it suck battery? Peak CPU?

If not it reminds me to: we clocked down the CPU because in 5% of user cases it would overheat the keyboard when put on top of the case.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

That, or they just wanted to annoy you ;)

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

I guess they changed it because somebody thought there is a problem with aesthetics. Actually, there used to be a patch that made the animation like it is now. There is even a thread in together about it: https://together.jolla.com/question/...ke-slide-also/. So I guess you're outnumbered 6 to 1 :)

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

I don't think anyone denies that they are moving forward in some areas, but instead of closing the feature and functionality gap with other OSes, it gets wider by the day. There seems to still be some kind of major flaw with the development process, or direction of it and motivation of staff. Small changes are still taking an age to implement, and major issues go either totally ignored or Jolla are incapable of fixing them. The farcical memory footprint of Sailfish and native apps, management of it and leaks have actually been worsened in the 10 months since it became chronic. To my knowledge, no other OS has ever had these kind of issues. Even Android in its earliest days on the HTC Dream wasn't such a battle (it had memory management issues and leaks).

Without going on too long, I think we'll know whether they've actually finally got a handle on the OS and development process by how many or how few improvements are shipped in 1.2 (which should be due about a week from now), and how quickly 1.2.1 ships after that and whether it quickly refines the new UI and adds features. If both sustain the previous glacial pace, then I don't see how the OS or Jolla have a future. I hope they give us some hope, but I'm really not expecting it.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

I think at least part of the problem is the half open/half closed nature of Sailfish OS.

Some features/bugs would be easy to add/fix for third party developers, but the change needs to be done in a closed component and only the already overworked Jolla developers are able to do that.

This can also project to testing - since parts of Sailfish OS are closed and developed behind closed doors you can't have a development distro branch going that people can continuously test and report issues. You have periodic pre-releases that might find the bugs too late, resulting in the final release being delayed or bugs being fixed a long time after being first reported (in the next periodic update - if your are lucky).

And the missing public bugzilla only makes this worse by adding more useless work for both the community (which has to use/workaround using a sub par bug reporting solution) and Jolla (combing through the unstructured questions on together and re-filling them in the internal bugzilla and maybe trying to keep the two in sync somehow).

Another problem could be that there is no real working community distro based on Mer (Nemo Mobile appears to be at best on life support unfortunately...) or any known major Mer user other than Sailfish OS for that matter. That would also help a lot with testing, new package and package update integration, etc. Like this it also all lands on the overworked backs of the Jolla developers...

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

I definitely agree, but there has to be some element of either poor focus or incompetence for some things to go on as they have. All the issues with Qt update and the 4 month gap between updates (despite the parlous state of the OS at the time) was because they had no way of branching or rolling back their code in development. They were 2 and a half years in at that point, management and senior coders were industry veterans, and they'd worked for years on Sailfish's direct predecessors. How does that even happen?? How could they go on for that long without a basic tool or function that OS or any complex software developers rely on? Whether there are now, I don't know, but there have been many major systemic failures at Jolla.

But yeah, the lack of a public bugzilla is so self defeating and such a sore point. I think I said a while ago I intended to give away the older of my two Jollas to a borderline genius level coder I knew, who's also a hardcore open source & linux enthusiast. Well, he was interested until I told him there was no bugtracker of any kind, let alone a properly maintained bugzilla ... at first he thought I'd misunderstood his question and didn't know what one was. Sadly not. He and another guy who was otherwise interested were incredulous.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

They call it slide & fade, but more close to wipe and fade. Slide would look cool but obviously demand those pixels being displaced.


Beats me why this got implemented with 6 voters (now 4) when already having a patch available to please the 25 or so supporters of the idea while 637 and 561 voters respectively are waiting for copy / paste and SIP functionality to be implemented :rolleyes:

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Well, that's not technically correct - there is the Mer Bugzilla.

This unfortunately is correct. While things seem to be improving (more link to the Mer bugzilla tend to show up in recent detailed release notes and bugs generally seem to be less ignored than before), it is still a mess.

For example there is just a single component for all Qt5 related issues (!) and many Mer/Nemo components are missing outright, so people tend to fill bugs on the .Other component...

And of course this is just for the Mer/Nemo components, so it can't be used for report the actual issues people are having with Sailfish OS, at least until the issues is pinpointed to a Mer/Nemo component.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

To someone without detailed knowledge of how Mer / Nemo / Sailfish relate to each other, the (as you point out poor) Mer Bugzilla page is going to be of limited usefulness and probably very frustrating. How do interested parties who are new to it get anywhere? Except to a probably quick conclusion that everything is highly disorganised and opaque. You get the impression that developers at Jolla have operated in an identical environment internally for most of the company's history.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

You are both right. The functionality gap is widening and Jolla dvelopers have a lot on their plate.

When reading your posts, the two highlighted bits stood up at me like sore thumbs. I do not know anything about Jolla's internal processes but I can tell you this from my own experience. I have worked in a wide range of environments, under a wide range of management and using a wide range of methodologies and development processes. And the things I always found the most demotivational could be summed up in just two bullet points:

• A lack of clear direction. The management may have an idea where the project is going but this is not being communicated to us little pawns. This leads to micromanagement: they tell you to do X, without telling you how it fits in the big picture or even who works on Y that directly interacts with your X. The impression is that even the management has no idea where they are going.
• An ever-growing backlog. You know there are 125 issues on the list, some of them serious and some of them with thousands of users crying for months if not years. Yet your manager asks you to work on a new feature that no one has ever asked for and while you are working on it, the backlog grows from 125 to 132.

Maybe it's just me but I found the two extremely demotivational and leading to running around in circles, with the result that you are constantly overworked and yet, when you look behind, you do not see any results.

I found this at work as well as in private life. There is no point opening a savings account while you have outstanding debts. Pay off your debts first otherwise they will continue increasing. Equally there is no point starting a new thing when you have 10 things unfinished. You will end up with 11 things unfinished.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

My only problem is the closed sourceness. Fsck everything and release it already, dammit!

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

here it is very useful comment,thanks

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Ok, I've been following today's discussion, and for some reason finding myself more and more confused. I think it finally gelled in my head with javispedro's statement:

So. As I understand it, we've got a fine, fully open-source OS base for mobile devices, Mer. And, there's even a fully open-source UI on top of this OS, Nemo.

To my knowledge, Jolla's Sailfish is not an integral part of Mer. It is, instead, an attempt to build a _commercial_ operating system on top of Mer, in very much the same vein as Android. (And, given Android's success, this seems like a decent strategy.)

Which leads me to the obvious (at least to my mind) question: why in the world would you want to open-source Sailfish? For those folks who want to see (and participate in!) a fully open-source OS, Nemo seems to be the way to go. For those folks who want to see Sailfish succeed as an alternative to Android, there seems little point in them opening the closed bits; they'll need to keep some items closed just to do business in the current environment.

Really, I see this as a perfect use of Mer, myself: one side pursues a commercial, closed-source UI on top of Mer; the other provides a fully open-source system top-to-bottom. Both approaches have their advantages. I just don't see the need to force Jolla to go full open-source as well...

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

What about folks that just want to fix annoying bugs in already existing piece of code, instead of wasting time on developing it from scratch?

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

I believe the correct answer to that question is "iOS". ;) A company with the market valuation of Apple can spend the money to hire enough people to fix all their bugs quickly. (And really, that's at the heart of the Apple experience, right? You're forking over your cash to them to get a feature-full, hassle-free device...)

Jolla needs to fix Jolla's bugs in whatever way Jolla sees fit. If you find their methodology lacking, well, it is a free market... :) If you want code that you yourself can fix bugs in, Nemo just seems a better bet to me.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Incorrect.

I just presented you an alternative view, on why would anyone want Jolla open-sourcing SailfishOS. Pity you didn't want to get it...

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

It seems they have been too busy with all the hassle with developing Jolla Tablet and all snags with it. On that part it wasn't really surprising that they decided to spin off the devices to independent company. As they stated by themselves, after the split is complete they can fully concentrate on developing Sailfish. For company with personnel count of something like 125 it is a big thing. So, way I see it, there is hope for things to get better on that part.

And yes, I still like the new UI and consider it to be improvement over old one.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

For example aren't the documents and browser apps open-source? How many have contributed to those? 1(well maybe more?) guy for the documents and a few for the browser? Well I don't know how hard it is to contribute to those so that might be one reason if it is difficult.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Ok, so, let me ask you: why are you shooting down Nemo then? I mean heck, if Jolla actually wanted to go the full open-source route from the start, we'd be seeing Jolla selling Nemo-based phones, not Sailfish-based phones, wouldn't we?

All I'm saying is, there's no point in having a fully open-source Sailfish, as Nemo already exists. Jolla is attempting to make a profit off of Sailfish, and so, they should do the work of fixing its bugs themselves. Community effort seems better spent on the community-based project instead...

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

but what state of nemo roms? are them usable for everyday use? i dont know anything about it.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

I suspect they are not usable for everyday use, because all those people that are claiming that they would be willing to contribute to Sailfish, if only it were FOSS, have not bothered to do so in the case of Nemo. This naturally raises the question of whether they really would contribute, or whether it's simply a load of gumflap. In this context, terms like 'we' or 'the community' usually mean 'someone else'.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

but regard this, i have a question. why all developers (and we have so much good ones here) waste their energy with sailfish os and not with nemo? just a question, because it seems paradoxal..

I have never heard about nemo as indipendent rom, i m going to be honest.

Another question: sailfish os is as far as i know only partially open, but only silica UI is closed or not? because i have two consideration to do, and they depend from that question.
because if there are some other components closed (apart alien dalvik sure) it would be not so good, but if its only the Silica UI, we would deal with the fact that they are a company and in order to make some money (even only to hire developers) they have to earn enought to eat and let devs eat. If they opened completely the ui, what an hardware company would have pay Jolla for? they could take os and use it as it is.. or i am missing some logic step?