Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

Wouldn't you rather Jolla spend their precious development time working on the actual operating system instead of spending loads of time on one app? Their job is to provide a stable and flexible platform for other developers to build apps on, not to single-handedly do everything themselves.

The Sailfish browser is "good enough" for most things, just like the AOSP browser is "good enough" for most things but not particularly awe inspiring. On every OS I can think of, one of the first things most people do is install a 3rd party browser to replace the built-in one. Like other platforms, the browser category has received a lot of 3rd party developer attention and we have WebPirate and WebCat to replace the default browser.

There's a double standard here too: Google development of the AOSP browser is minimal compared to Chrome because they want people to use Chrome instead, and improving the AOSP browser benefits all the other companies shipping custom Android distributions without Play services. I don't know why we expect Jolla to do so much work on their open browser when other companies don't.

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

It works as good as before.

Edit: Yes I mean UI. Its there.

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

Please read the question:

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

You may want to split the hairs like that but I don't. Neither should other Jolla's customers. They buy a product. A product is composed of many parts. The browser is just one cog in a big machine, as is Phone, Messages, Email, Clock... Jolla itself reinforces that view by never offering updates to those packages separately, they always offer the whole thing as a monolithic block. So, to update the browser, they force me to reboot the phone. Even evil Microsoft does not do that.

Why should a user care where individual parts come from? Select few may care and good for them, but my point is that they should not have to. Unless Jolla wants to forever remain a geeksphone, with all the implications of a limited user base and never making a big splash they once said they wanted to make.

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

Are you comparing Sailfish to desktop Windows, or to Windows phone? Do updates to Internet Explorer on WP not come with system updates?

I am comparing Sailfish to Android. In Android, you only get a browser update when you upgrade Android itself, since it's baked into the ROM. If you install a browser that isn't part of the ROM, then you get updates as and when they are ready... the same as e.g. installing WebPirate on Sailfish.

I don't understand the complaint. Sailfish ships with a reasonable browser, and even better browsers exist in the store, just like every other platform!

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

Alright, yeah, I'm pushing the argument for open source a little hard here. :) But still:

Ok, I don't get this. Open Source is not a company. It isn't a project. It isn't trying to get anywhere. It's just a way for folks to share code. You can choose to be open with a competitive project, or a collaborative project, or just some code you've noodled together on your own; there's no requirement that Open = Good or Open = Solves My Problem. :)

Well certainly, you can and should have expectations for a piece of code! :) My only question is, why would the creator of an Open Source program listen? Sure, if you're paying him for a product, you want value for your money. :) But that's a different story -- that has nothing to do with whether the code is open or closed...

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

The complaint started because they've broken what cut and paste support they did have in the browser before 2.0.

And yes they should ship the browser independently to the OS just as Apple do with Safari.

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

Got my tuning knob glued fixed..

With 3 devices and methodical approach hardly ever found in "pro phone reviews" this will get interesting.
Somebody will ask if per preliminary measure you have cleaned up the btfrs file system in order to dress it up for optimal bench performance on each device but you know that I am certain :D

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

I am honored ;)
Yes, i did balance all of them. Main remaining difference between the 3 phones is still:
- 1.1.7. phone is used since 07/14 by my wife and has some accounts and few diskspace, took an hour to balance.
-1.1.9. phone is from 09/15 and barely used, no accounts only updated in 5 steps and used as a tethering device.
-2.0.0 my main device from 01/14, factory reseted recently but nevertheless the one with most history.

But please do not expect to much from my first attempt. I even forgot to show version number of the phones as proof...
And i am not satified with "meaningfulness" of my test case.
Hope you will have an even better idea what to show @Ste-phan.
I may be doing another version after the first attempt with all phones facory reseted freshly.

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

I think this is just caused by Jolla having insufficient resources for updating individual packages - because even if you update just a single package there is still a lot of stuff the individual update can influence that you need to test before releasing it to end users. And that can add up on QA resources quite quickly.

On the other hand just QAing it all at once before a batch update can save a lot of QA time as you just need to run all the tests once.

This is still hopefully just a temporary thing, as you should really release at least security updates as fast as possible, not make them dependent on non-critical bug fixes and feature additions. And major Linux distros manage to do this just fine.

But compared to other mobile platforms I guess even batched but regular security updates are a huge improvement. :)

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

Sorry, my fault, I did not make myself clear. Got distracted by all the talk about the browser, but the browser is only circumstantial to the topic at hand.

Yes, Open Source is all the things you say. But, at least for some people, it is also an ideology. For many people it is predominantly ideology. And that is the crux of the matter.

Jolla is attempting an admirable thing. They are trying to make a product out of Open Source software. Many have tried but so far nobody has succeeded. Because ideology and business do not mix.

You may start dropping big names to prove me wrong but when you look deeper, none of those has managed to turn the Open Source software into a product. The actual product is always something else, with OSS being there just by the way. Google? Their product is big data management. Canonical, Novell, Sun etc? Their product is the service. All those firms making embedded systems running Linux in some form or another? Their product is of course the black (white, blue, silver, yellow...) box. Not the software.

Now Jolla is trying to change that. Good for them, they have my full admiration. I would not have the guts to do that. BUT - and this is what I was trying to convey right at the beginning - to achieve that, this "there is tbe source, stop moaning and fix it yourself" attitude has to change. Because customers want to buy a product, not a DIY kit.

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

Touché. :) You are absolutely right; the fundamental assumptions between open products and purchased products are definitely at odds with one another.

Hmm. Perhaps it'd be better for Jolla to just completely spin off products like the browser, and focus solely on the core OS. Maybe even license a closed-source browser from, say, Google or somebody. This way, they could concentrate their efforts on a smaller amount of open code, and thus do a better job with it. In other words, a less open Jolla might make everyone happier! :)

But yeah, deep down in my ideological heart, whenever I hear someone complaining that a piece of open source code needs work, I still want to jump up and say "so why haven't you fixed it yourself?" :) To me, that's the only real advantage of open software, regardless of who created it or why...

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

Well, at least on this community I'm not so sure about that. At times it does seem like it would be more important to have a DIY-kit than to have a working product...

But true, it should be a priority for them to make a great product. However, because if insufficient resources available there will always be priorities and setting them will always be major source of disagreement.

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

Sure, but without the Open Source software in question there would be no services to provide. Actually providing services/subscription seem generally like the best option for sustaining a fully open source company. Certainly better than the unfortunate Open Core model many companies try to use.

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

Back to the browser, I have always considered the software bundled with the OS nothing more than a proof of concept. Probably best exemplified by the quote I heard somewhere, "IE is the best browser to download another browser." I may even have mentioned it before. So if you hear me moaning about Sailfish Browser, please know that I don't really mean it ;)

Having said that, select and copy would be nice ;)

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

I think you mixed free and open software. They do make money on services, how those services are good or bad for you is different question. But you are not forced to use it, you can just use what you want, change it to your needs, fork and adapt for your needs. but if they use opensource it doesn't mean they would develop exactly for your HW or your needs and if you want to influence, you need to pay and is logical. But it is not related if it's opensource or not, as for support/service/configuration/installation/adaptation you always pay and if not to them, to someone to do it for you(of cause is case you do not know how to do it yourself).
But on other side you have a choice to do it yourself and even share with other people (check how it was with maemo and n900, how many patches, rewrites, hacks and things were done by common people here in this same forum)
So getting paid for services is not related to being or not opensource, at the end they need to have income.
And jolla is not most opensource friendly and hackable friendly as far as i see it.

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

I think we're in agreement! :)

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

however stop this discussion about opensource, we are talking of it at every update..its a moot...any other opinion about 2.0.1.0?

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

I can think of hundreds if not thousands of companies that make a healthy living out of selling open source software.

Companies involved in developing commercial content management systems for instance like EllisLab or Pixel & Tonic. Or the plugin market for WordPress, Magneto etc. The source is not encrypted but a licence is not free.

There's no reason you can't have open source software but with a licence that is commercial.

The problem seems to be nobody makes a profit out of selling Linux without some service or device attached. Linux is secondary to the business itself.

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

I would be OK with keeping that 'proof of concept' paradigm if there would be a way to tell the system that the default browser (or application X) is not the bundled one but a 3rd party (the debianist in me dreams about an /etc/alternatives system)

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

it is already possible to change default browser, try Mime app

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

Good idea. Let's.

Absolutely agree! It looks nice indeed. So much more professional.
That and the "Connect to internet" dialog.

However, like with everything, someone is always quick to complain.

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

now its system upgrade. in the 1.1.9.28 this feature was disabled and could be activated with a patch.

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

I guess you mean openrepos' Mimer, right?
While it's nice that there is an app for that, the fact that it's an app and it comes from a 3rd party is sad.
It ought to be a part of Sailfish settings.

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

yes, i agree with u, but a lot of useful feature in sfos are coming from 3th parties

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

Look what me found on da internet :cool:

First video involving Sailfish 2.0.0.10?

Hope you like it!

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

Very interesting results indeed. Great video by the way, it was nice that commands were sent via SSH

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

As is the case with any OS.

Only some of them have a setting for the default browser. At least on Windoze this is a feature of the browser: "Do you want me to set myself as default?" I would be quite satisfied with alternative SFOS browsers doing the same. Having Mimer is even better, IMO.

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

Great video :)

Not surprised that 2.0 beat 1.1.9 (since 1.1.9 was half way through a big UI change), but I must admit I'm shocked that 1.1.7 came out on top here.

Anyone got any theories as to why? More resource intensive eye candy in 2.0?

P.S., that music... my girlfriend was asking why I was listening to "I'm a little teapot"! LOL

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

aww, you like it, thx!!
Theories?

A. The Framerate display offset has changed from 1.0 to 2.0. lol
(Turns out the guess was close.. lol again)
B. major revamp of the ui burning down old bridges and crushing some highways in the process? (could mean we will see old performance back someday)
C. Eyecandy is always active to sport a snappier outlook when navigating? (could need optimization)
D. Marc has left the building :p
E. Non of the above that makes comparison unadequate or is rooted in an error of the youtuber?

P.S., that music... is perfect to express that my theory was in great jeopardy in the beginning!

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

Great video (I really appreciate the effort with SSH and the triple touch device ;) )!

So basically 1.1.7 is much more optimized than both 1.1.9 and 2.0.0, with 2.0.0 being a slight improvement over 1.1.9 (so that's why people were reporting that 2.0.0 feels faster, as no-one upgraded straight from 1.1.7 to 2.0.0).

It is not really a surprise to me, as 2.0.0 is the first release where I am experiencing total freezes like in the video (for the first time in almost two years I've been using my Jolla for).

Just in the last two days, the phone completely froze twice:

1. the only solution was pulling out the battery - not even SSH would react
2. SSH didn't react either, but after a few minutes (while I'm writing this post), lipstick crashed by itself, so that "fixed" it

I wasn't using any Android apps (and don't have any allowed to run as background services) - only 3-4 native apps at the time. I wasn't running any video either (playing videos was a likely cause to aggressive OOM behavior in 1.1.9), so it is quite worrying.

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

That is the danger when users try to do videos with technical appearance :D
Turns out the graph is missleading if you compare 1.0 and 2.0 UI!

Joona Petrell some minutes ago as a comment to the video:
This early morning i already got a tweet from stskeeps remarking that "frame meter makes the device render 60fps all the time and is not indicative of actual use"

Now that we know, it is still safe to compare startup times and multitasking behaviour from the video between 1.1.9 and 2.0.

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

I don't think the fps really matters as we saw old 1.1.7 opening/loading apps faster than 1.1.9 and 2.0

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

What would be really professional is if they fixed it to work properly and consistently. It still doesn't. The UI improvement is moot whilst that remains the case.

A dress heel put paid to my N5 (RIP), so unfortunately I'm back on the Jolla for now. As predicted, the lack of OOM-killing didn't last ... it's back to doing it all the time, though still not quite as disruptive as 1.1.7 or 1.1.9

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

FPS generally hasn't been an issue since they replaced the renderer just under a year ago. Even whilst the phone was working nominally, you used to get huge frame drops and (screen) freezes before that. It's been smoothish since. Now the phone will freeze a lot still, but it isn't the renderer.

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

So quiet here...

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

Well I think it's good!

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

It is, no bugs to shout/cry/be angry about (praise doesn't come as easy as outrage, then again you have that one guy reporting battery and oom issues :D this will have to do)

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

Either it's got less critical bugs or less critical users. ;)

Re: Sailfish 2.0.0 Saimaa
 

I love the ambiguity in your post. Did you mean less or fewer? ;)