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-   -   Purism Librem Phone (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=97679)

Feathers McGraw 2017-09-26 19:31
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
When did it stop being such a chode? Looks much better now, they must have done some "redesign"

Edit: also, that comparison chart says that pureos "Separates CPU from Cellular Baseband" whereas iOS and Android don't... but that's a hardware feature?!

MartinK 2017-09-26 20:16
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feathers McGraw (Post 1535243)
When did it stop being such a chode? Looks much better now, they must have done some "redesign"

Edit: also, that comparison chart says that pureos "Separates CPU from Cellular Baseband" whereas iOS and Android don't... but that's a hardware feature?!
Well, it can mean a lot of things. AFAIK most current smarpthones have an application CPU where the "normal" OS lives (Sailfish OS/Android/iOS/etc.) and a baseband with its own CPU that runs some totally proprietary RTOS no one really knows much about and which handles all the communication with the cellular network (calling, SMS, data, etc.).

These these CPUs generally communicate with some sort of IPC - for example if the user uses the phone app to start a call, the application CPU tells the baseband CPU to initiate it.

How tightly coupled these two CPUs are can make quite a difference, as you can generally tell what the application CPU is running while the baseband CPU is basically running an unauditable binary blob sitting on an always online wireless connection. IIRC in some cases it even starts first during boot and/or can manipulate content of the main memory without the application CPU knowing about it. Fun and games! :)

For that reason the Neo 900 project went the way of having a separate baseband module that communicates with the application CPU via clearly defined and easily to audit channel & which can be robustly disabled (by turning it's power supply off).

So it could be the Librem Phone projects wants to do the same thing as Neo 900 (fully separate baseband module). Or they just rephrase the status quo (individual application/baseband CPUs with unclear separation) in a positive way - and I would not discount that given that the whole project seems to be a bit marketing heavy and fact light.

mikecomputing 2017-09-27 11:07
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
What we know is the arm choosed has no cellular built in The core sock so they have to use Telia/ublox or similar all those modules has almost alwaus an interna closed firmware.

I doubt even neo900 is full Open modem firmware....

Venemo 2017-09-27 11:48
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Cellular modems are so complicated that they require their own ARM processor. Whatever code runs on this core is closed-source and proprietary.

In order to improve general system performance, some SoC vendors chose to include the modem in the SoC itself. So basically there is yet another ARM core in the SoC which is dedicated to running the cellular modem. This core runs a closed-source blob and is unavailable to the operating system.

This thight integration raises some concerns for some people:
  • the audio signal is routed directly into the modem, without any intervention from the main CPU, which leads to some people believing that the modem can always "listen in" to you, even when you are not in a phone call
  • the main processor communicates with the modem's ARM core via shared memory, so the modem can access the main memory, so some people believe that the modem can "steal your data" by copying arbitrary stuff from your RAM
  • since the modem is on the same chip and powered via the same power pins, some people also think that there is no reliable way to power down the modem entirely, so it can "spy" on you even when you think it's in offline mode
  • since the modem runs closed-source software, some people believe that it is of bad quality and suspect to "backdoors" (and is not auditable by independent researchers)

Whether or not these concerns are valid (or even feasible technically) or not is anybody's guess. I'm not saying you should go paranoid about this, but these are the main concerns that are raised with regards to this.

So these people who are designing "privacy-protecting" devices generally use a SoC with a non-integrated modem, which allows greater control over the modem in case it becomes "malicious". So they sacrifice some PCB area and make some trade-off to give you this additional control.

EDIT 1: practically all modern smartphones have a SoC which has the modem built-in. Not sury why Purism sells this as a software feature, though, when clearly it isn't.

EDIT 2: according to some trivia, Nokia figured out how to run the modem and their OS on the same one ARM core, which is why their low-end phones were so cheap (because they needed one fewer CPU core at a time when this meant saving a significant cost).

Feathers McGraw 2017-09-27 12:32
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinK (Post 1535250)
Well, it can mean a lot of things. AFAIK most current smarpthones have an application CPU where the "normal" OS lives (Sailfish OS/Android/iOS/etc.) and a baseband with its own CPU that runs some totally proprietary RTOS no one really knows much about and which handles all the communication with the cellular network (calling, SMS, data, etc.).

These these CPUs generally communicate with some sort of IPC - for example if the user uses the phone app to start a call, the application CPU tells the baseband CPU to initiate it.

How tightly coupled these two CPUs are can make quite a difference, as you can generally tell what the application CPU is running while the baseband CPU is basically running an unauditable binary blob sitting on an always online wireless connection. IIRC in some cases it even starts first during boot and/or can manipulate content of the main memory without the application CPU knowing about it. Fun and games! :)

For that reason the Neo 900 project went the way of having a separate baseband module that communicates with the application CPU via clearly defined and easily to audit channel & which can be robustly disabled (by turning it's power supply off).

So it could be the Librem Phone projects wants to do the same thing as Neo 900 (fully separate baseband module). Or they just rephrase the status quo (individual application/baseband CPUs with unclear separation) in a positive way - and I would not discount that given that the whole project seems to be a bit marketing heavy and fact light.
Yeah I get that, and it's one of the reasons why I was interested in the neo900, but isn't the problem that the baseband CPU can read/shares memory with the application CPU. Separating them requires separate memory for the two CPUs... which is a hardware feature, that you can't just implement in an OS.

From http://neo900.org/faq#floss
Quote:
Unlike some other smartphones do, Neo900 won't share system RAM with the modem and system CPU will always have full control over the microphone signal sent to the modem. You can think of it as a USB dongle connected to the PC, with you in full control over the drivers, with a virtual LED to show any modem activity

wicket 2017-09-27 14:50
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
I wouldn't advertise it as a feature at all. Separating the modem from the SoC doesn't guarantee anything. They claim that the Librem 5 is the phone that "focuses on security by design and privacy protection by default" but in reality the Neo900, with its sandboxed modem design, would be by far the better option in this category. There's so much to like about the Librem 5 but their false claims are annoying and don't inspire me with any confidence that they are competent enough to deliver.

Venemo 2017-09-27 17:29
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wicket (Post 1535302)
I wouldn't advertise it as a feature at all. Separating the modem from the SoC doesn't guarantee anything. They claim that the Librem 5 is the phone that "focuses on security by design and privacy protection by default" but in reality the Neo900, with its sandboxed modem design, would be by far the better option in this category. There's so much to like about the Librem 5 but their false claims are annoying and don't inspire me with any confidence that they are competent enough to deliver.
I think the Librem 5 will employ the same idea as the Neo900

Zeta 2017-09-27 21:34
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wicket (Post 1535302)
They claim that the Librem 5 is the phone that "focuses on security by design and privacy protection by default" but in reality the Neo900, with its sandboxed modem design, would be by far the better option in this category.
Do you have details on the librem5 implementation to back those claims ?
I didn't find much on this, except that the iMx6/8 doesn't exist with integrated baseband, so it will by design be separated. I don't think the memory bus of the iMx6/8 can be shared (in the idea that there are 2 chips reading/writing on the same RAM), so it would need its own memory. At this point, we are close to the Neo900 design, and the attack surface reduced a lot compared to standard phones.
The remaining things not clear is if they went with a hardware way to monitor and power down the baseband, and how the audio input is connected to it ?

wicket 2017-09-28 02:28
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Venemo (Post 1535331)
I think the Librem 5 will employ the same idea as the Neo900
I hope so, but they don't mention anything about a sandboxing and monitoring the baseband on their campaign. If they are going to do this, it's kind of a big feature to leave out of the product description.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeta (Post 1535354)
Do you have details on the librem5 implementation to back those claims ?
I didn't find much on this, except that the iMx6/8 doesn't exist with integrated baseband, so it will by design be separated. I don't think the memory bus of the iMx6/8 can be shared (in the idea that there are 2 chips reading/writing on the same RAM), so it would need its own memory. At this point, we are close to the Neo900 design, and the attack surface reduced a lot compared to standard phones.
The remaining things not clear is if they went with a hardware way to monitor and power down the baseband, and how the audio input is connected to it ?
The Neo900 design documents and Git repos are all shared publicly.

The baseband is a big proprietary black box. We have no idea what goes on inside of it. If privacy was my top concern, I'd feel much safer with a device that has a sandboxed baseband than one that doesn't.

Venemo 2017-09-28 09:03
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wicket (Post 1535366)
The baseband is a big proprietary black box. We have no idea what goes on inside of it. If privacy was my top concern, I'd feel much safer with a device that has a sandboxed baseband than one that doesn't.
The "sandbox" means:
  1. The modem does not access system memory
  2. Power input of the modem is controlled by the application processor
  3. Audio input of the modem is controlled by the application processor

The above points are effective solved by having a separate module or chip for the modem and only communicating with it via a simple serial port. Plus, adding a switch to its power supply and audio.

However, some people are even more paranoid and add an RF switch between the modem and the antenna, "just to be sure". :D

Not sure how far the Neo900 and the Purism go with this, though. (Neo900 had a detailed doc somewhere but I can't find it now.)

wicket 2017-09-28 16:26
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Venemo (Post 1535384)
The "sandbox" means:
  1. The modem does not access system memory
  2. Power input of the modem is controlled by the application processor
  3. Audio input of the modem is controlled by the application processor

The above points are effective solved by having a separate module or chip for the modem and only communicating with it via a simple serial port. Plus, adding a switch to its power supply and audio.

However, some people are even more paranoid and add an RF switch between the modem and the antenna, "just to be sure". :D

Not sure how far the Neo900 and the Purism go with this, though. (Neo900 had a detailed doc somewhere but I can't find it now.)
A sandbox provides a highly controlled environment. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by serial port or how it would work but the Librem 5 product description mentions nothing this, nothing of a baseband sandbox, nor any sort of controlled environment. They simply state that the baseband will be separate from the SoC. This design is of course better than most modern smartphones which integrate the baseband in the SoC but it is by no means a sandbox. If you have 5 minutes spare, here is a video which provides a quick overview of what the Neo900 guys are doing.

mikecomputing 2017-09-29 19:21
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wicket (Post 1535403)
A sandbox provides a highly controlled environment. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by serial port or how it would work but the Librem 5 product description mentions nothing this, nothing of a baseband sandbox, nor any sort of controlled environment. They simply state that the baseband will be separate from the SoC. This design is of course better than most modern smartphones which integrate the baseband in the SoC but it is by no means a sandbox. If you have 5 minutes spare, here is a video which provides a quick overview of what the Neo900 guys are doing.
So now the world sandbox makes stuff more private cmon?

Seriously what makes this different from what librem guys will do? How can you be sure neo900 is better? Based on what info?

You could just make it easy by turn the damn modem totally off with a simple FET solution and then call it fetbox privacy phone as a marketing hype will that make it better than sandbox or worse?

Venemo 2017-09-30 10:03
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wicket (Post 1535403)
A sandbox provides a highly controlled environment.
I'd be interested to hear how you imagine the hardware implementation of your sandbox, if not the way I described it to you.

r0kk3rz 2017-09-30 14:24
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Venemo (Post 1535516)
I'd be interested to hear how you imagine the hardware implementation of your sandbox, if not the way I described it to you.
On a seperate chip, connected by high-speed serial uart, instead of inside the SoC with shared memory driver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venemo (Post 1535384)
The above points are effective solved by having a separate module or chip for the modem and only communicating with it via a simple serial port. Plus, adding a switch to its power supply and audio.
Yeah... what he said.

EDIT: this is also basically what the neo900 guys are talking about, but with a bit of monitoring so you can guess when something you don't want is happening.

wicket 2017-09-30 16:39
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Venemo (Post 1535516)
I'd be interested to hear how you imagine the hardware implementation of your sandbox, if not the way I described it to you.
Pretty much what r0kk3rz said. The key things here are the hardware monitors and how the device reacts to rogue activity. The Neo900 can watch the radio for any unexpected activity, it can watch the CPU-modem data link and knows if it becomes active when it shouldn't, and it can also watch the power consumption of the modem to detect if it's being used when it shouldn't be.

Additionally, the input audio of the Neo900 modem will be disconnected. This means the input audio has been separated so the modem has to ask the CPU when it wants to use the audio channel. It's able to detect if the modem goes rogue and act appropriately.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong. Despite my criticisms, I think the Librem 5 would be a great product and I want to see it succeed. There's nothing else like it on the market today and if it was available now I'd buy it in an instant. I'd probably be prepared to pay even more than what they asking for. That doesn't mean I'm going to hold back from pointing out the lies and bullshˇt in their campaign. I'd love to support it but I can't. $600 is too much money for me to risk on a product that doesn't exist. It's a shame they don't offer a pre-order deposit of say $100 to allow more people to support them.

pichlo 2017-09-30 19:16
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wicket (Post 1535548)
$600 is too much money for me to risk on a product that doesn't exist.
Yet you do not feel the same restraint about Neo900 ;)

mikecomputing 2017-09-30 22:05
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
https://www.slashgear.com/purism-lib...hone-22501210/

Almost 60% now.... go go go

Jordi 2017-10-01 06:43
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
I contributed. Because we deserve to have more choices.

jukk 2017-10-01 08:38
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Contributed!

karlos devel 2017-10-01 14:32
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
I will backed Librem Phone 5, this is one of most important project in the histories of GNU; Thx Purism | Jolla is still far from this philosophy. But i love SailfishOS even with stinky-blobs

chickenleg 2017-10-02 00:05
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
These all or nothing campaigns always scare me. This one is nerve-wracking.

ThomasAH 2017-10-02 09:57
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Also contributed to this project, esp. once they announced they are working together with KDE to get Plasma Mobile working on it :)

Venemo 2017-10-02 11:38
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by r0kk3rz (Post 1535538)
On a seperate chip, connected by high-speed serial uart, instead of inside the SoC with shared memory driver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wicket (Post 1535548)
Pretty much what r0kk3rz said.
That's exactly what I said, isn't it?

mikecomputing 2017-10-02 15:34
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Over 60% is now reached they should reach at least 2/3 this week :cool: go go go.

I just contributing for the phone using bitcoin payment :cool: :)

I am also interested in the the developer kit but I have to think a little more before I decide. Anyone else bought the kit?

wicket 2017-10-02 21:14
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1535558)
Yet you do not feel the same restraint about Neo900 ;)
Don't think I'm giving a penny more to Neo900 UG until there's a product ready to purchase. ;) $600 for a non-existent product is much more money than Neo900 UG ever asked me for, especially when the Purism crowd funding campaign doesn't inspire me with confidence for the reasons I've already stated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venemo (Post 1535657)
That's exactly what I said, isn't it?
Indeed, but then r0kk3rs went on to mention the monitoring which I don't think you mentioned at all. For me, the hardware monitors form a key part of the Neo900 sandbox solution.

Look, I'm really not interested in an argument, I was merely trying to point out that Purism don't mention anything about hardware monitors in their crowd funding campaign. Maybe they will decide to include them, maybe they won't. Who knows? I don't like to speculate. Maybe it's just me but I find several aspects of their campaign to be vague, confusing and misleading. Let's just leave it at that, shall we?

juiceme 2017-10-03 06:08
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wicket (Post 1535702)
Look, I'm really not interested in an argument, I was merely trying to point out that Purism don't mention anything about hardware monitors in their crowd funding campaign. Maybe they will decide to include them, maybe they won't. Who knows? I don't like to speculate. Maybe it's just me but I find several aspects of their campaign to be vague, confusing and misleading. Let's just leave it at that, shall we?
I have the same problem with Purism, it seems to me the thing is driven by marketoids and not engineers.

With Neo900 there is strong, reality-based evidence on what the team is doing, there are detailed schematics available of the bloody box down to the tiniest pull-up resistor.

With Purism there is just hyped-up words, there is no meat in the soup they are serving to you... :(

I don't trus marketoids, never have even though I have sometimes worked with them. They are only second to corporate IP lawyers on my list. There is an old saying describing some people that I can say for sure applies to all marketing teams, even to those in the companies I have worked for;
Quote:
If you are asked something and you are in doubt about it always lie first, you can correct it later if it serves your puropse

mscion 2017-10-03 14:30
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Currently they are at about 63% with 20 days to go. That means Purism has to raise about $27500 per day which is like about 46/day of new orders for the $599 device. Lets see where they're at in 5 and 10 days from now to determine the trend. Hopefully it is going in a positive way...

gerbick 2017-10-03 14:34
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mscion (Post 1535740)
Currently they are at about 63% with 20 days to go. That means Purism has to raise about $27500 per day which is like about 46/day of new orders for the $599 device. Lets see where they're at in 5 and 10 days from now to determine the trend. Hopefully it is going in a positive way...
What happens if they fall slightly short though? Just wondering...

Feathers McGraw 2017-10-03 14:59
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1535741)
What happens if they fall slightly short though? Just wondering...
I think it's an all or nothing campaign (like ubuntu edge).

juiceme 2017-10-03 19:49
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feathers McGraw (Post 1535743)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1535741)
What happens if they fall slightly short though? Just wondering...
I think it's an all or nothing campaign (like ubuntu edge).
Indeed. And just about as convincing, I am sorry to say :(

mikecomputing 2017-10-03 20:09
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1535741)
What happens if they fall slightly short though? Just wondering...
That means people are not interested and we are doomed to continue use Android or Iphone.

mscion 2017-10-03 22:45
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikecomputing (Post 1535759)
That means people are not interested and we are doomed to continue use Android or Iphone.
Good point! Pick your poison!

pacman 2017-10-04 10:47
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
With this announcement, they could even consider FreeBSD! (Which will run Gnome, btw)

FreeBSD gains eMMC support so … errr … watch out, Android

r0kk3rz 2017-10-04 11:35
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pacman (Post 1535802)
With this announcement, they could even consider FreeBSD! (Which will run Gnome, btw)

FreeBSD gains eMMC support so … errr … watch out, Android
if FreeBSD has only just gotten eMMC support, what hope does it have for everything else on the device? graphics drivers? wireless drivers?

Anyway from their position it seems that they want to give you the option to run whatever you want on it, regardless of what it comes with out-of-the-box.

pichlo 2017-10-04 11:47
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by r0kk3rz (Post 1535805)
if FreeBSD has only just gotten eMMC support, what hope does it have for everything else on the device? graphics drivers? wireless drivers?
On the other hand, there is a rather popular OS that is also based on BSD. If I could only remember which one :D

nh1402 2017-10-04 12:05
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1535807)
On the other hand, there is a rather popular OS that is also based on BSD. If I could only remember which one :D
Orbis? (found on the Playstation 4)
or the one on the Nintendo Switch?

there isn't any other worthy of my breath.

r0kk3rz 2017-10-04 12:27
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1535807)
On the other hand, there is a rather popular OS that is also based on BSD. If I could only remember which one :D
Does AAPL upstream their drivers though?

gerbick 2017-10-04 12:49
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikecomputing (Post 1535759)
That means people are not interested and we are doomed to continue use Android or Iphone.
If they were going after the Android and iPhone groups, they should advertise more on sites where those types flock.

That doesn't seem to be the case. In fact, I found out about this project here.

mikecomputing 2017-10-04 20:17
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pacman (Post 1535802)
With this announcement, they could even consider FreeBSD! (Which will run Gnome, btw)

FreeBSD gains eMMC support so … errr … watch out, Android
Yes if someone ports freebsd kernel to iMX6 platform...

mikecomputing 2017-10-04 20:22
Re: Purism Librem Phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1535815)
If they were going after the Android and iPhone groups, they should advertise more on sites where those types flock.

That doesn't seem to be the case. In fact, I found out about this project here.
yeah marketing sucks as usual :/

But at least Lunduke show, Linux gamer, planetkde and planetgnome give it some attention. But they should do more.

Let's hope something happens in the weekend...


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