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-   -   Next Gen Tablet (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=9901)

johnkzin 2007-09-20 10:03

Next Gen Tablet
 
I'm sure we've all seen the rumored Nokia device that has the slide-out keyboard. And I'm told that there have been "next gen IT" threads on here before. I thought I'd share my ideas.


1) form factor

Instead of the MDA/OQO type "slide out keyboard" format, I'd rather see the micro-laptop-with-twistable-screen format, like this device:

http://www.dopodasia.com/NR/exeres/C...eft1_pro_9_1_1

Though, honestly, both are terrible from an ergonomics perspective. The hand wants the thumbs to be more vertical than horizontal (stretched out to the side). The MDA/OQO form factor is _TERRIBLE_ for this, and even the micro-laptop format isn't better (but the angle between keyboard and screen can be slightly better). That's why the pepper-pad layout is actually the right design for including a keyboard in a tablet. But, the pepper-pad is too big.

So, the idea I had was like a micro-laptop with 2 hinges and 3 sections. So, it has a cross section like: /\/ instead of /\ (like a laptop). The top section has the screen, and a hinge that can fold 360 degrees. The second section has a thumb keyboard, and a hinge that can fold 360 degrees. The third section holds batteries and memory cards, and has a lock that can engage it to form a rigid extension to the keyboard. So your palm and fingers can grab the third section, letting your thumbs stay more vertical as you type.

The third section can fold behind the keyboard, and then let the keyboard and screen face each other ... or they screen can fold behind the keyboard (facing away from it, and then the third section can fold over the keyboard (protecting the keyboard and keeping you from accidently hitting keys). In this later format, you would use the device just like a tablet.

I hope that description makes sense. The micro-laptop layout would look like this:

\__

Where the backslash is the screen, the first underbar is the keyboard, and the second underbar is the extra section, locked into place. The screen is facing to the right, and the keyboard is facing up. To close it, you'd just fold the keyboard up, unlock the third section and it down:

\/\

Only compressed so that the sections are right up against each other. The screen is facing to the right of the diagram, up against the keyboard (which is facing left).

The tablet layout would look like this:

/\/

Only folded to be more flat. The first section is, again, the screen. Only, it's facing to the left. The second section is the keyboard, facing to the right (away from the screen). The third section, since it has no features, is just there to cover/protect the keyboard.


(if someone wants to steal that idea from me, all I ask is that I get a design credit, and a free copy of the device :-) )


2) non-keyboard button layout (next to the screen)

a) 8 way d-pad + select on center left
b) 8 way d-pad + select on center right
c) programmable buttons in each corner

Software settings would allow you to set each dpad between "select" or "dpad" or "select and dpad" (the way the current N800 one works). So, those of us who don't like select+dpad can separate them. Also, by having two, you can select left handed or right handed configurations.

The four programmable buttons could be set to escape, home, menu, and an application specific button (ex: in the web browsers, I hate having to "hold down a url" to get the context menu to engage, so the application specific button might be set such that if you hold it down and click on a url, it pulls up the context menu instead of opening the URL).

For me, personally, the left dpad would be dpad only, the escape button would be upper left, the application-specific button would be lower left, the home button would be upper right, the right dpad would be "select only", and the menu button would be lower right.


3) 2 cameras

One low quality chat cam on the front, one higher quality picture taking cam on the back.


4) Segregated internal memory

I can't think of a decent reason why flasher erases user data and user applications. Flashing system memory should not affect user data and user memory. /home/user and whatever is the equivalent of /usr/local should be in a separate memory space that doesn't get touched/harmed by flasher when you upgrade the OS.


5) Support for the Seagate D.A.V.E.

Bluetooth HD. Keep it in your backpack or breifcase, but access it from your IT. (the N800 might support it by default, I don't know, but I'm saying that the next gen IT should support it out of the box). Hopefully the D.A.V.E. uses a generic enough part of the bluetooth protocol that you don't have to make the support for the D.A.V.E. be device specific, and the next gen IT could work with _any_ Bluetooth HD.


6) Build in Syncing ability

Nokia has other devices that sync their data seemlessly with both Windows and Macs. This should be a no-brainer. The next gen IT should seemlessly do all of the same syncing that their other phones do. Bi-directional sync calendar, contacts, and even bookmarks, with Apple's apps (iCal, Addressbook, Safari), MS's apps, Thunderbird, Firefox, Lightning/Sunbird, and Opera. And provide an app that gets you the same functionality on Linux. Last, for syncing, have all of it sync seemlessly with Google Apps (mostly the API's are there already, except I hear that the contacts API doesn't exist).

Bonus: sync with oracle calendar as well.

Second Bonus: support for syncing to a generic ACAP server for contacts and bookmarks.


7) The current mozilla based browser, microb, is slow and clumsy in comparison to opera. I'd like to see that fixed. I see a very noticeable difference in start-up speed and load speed with microb compared to opera. Further, trying to hold down a URL to get the context menu is hit-and-miss on microb. I think it would make a lot of sense to have a very smooth and polished mozilla based browser included in the base configuration (along with opera).


8) Better Email Client

The current mail client is pretty lacking. Why not work with mozilla to make a micro-thunderbird? If claws-mail can be ported, why not a scaled down thunderbird (in the same way microb is a scaled down version of the mozilla browser). Then you'd get real IMAP support build in, instead of what amounts to pop-behavior-via-IMAP-protocol.


9) The last 3 combine to also say:

what about a scaled down version of the mozilla calendar apps? Or some sort of built in calendar?


10) Generic SIP VOIP/Phone capability

I'm not a Skype user. But I do have a SIP capable server at home (CommuniGate Pro). Being able to use any random SIP/VOIP server would be much more useful to me than only being able to use Skype.

Maybe the Skype software can do that.. I don't know. But it strikes me as being Skype service specific.


11) WiMAX

I hope that the Sprint WiMAX version of the N800 would see that feature (WiMAX) carry forward into the next gen IT as well.


12) 3G mobile/cellular radio

It would be _nice_ to have 3G capability for IP, but I'm actually ok with having to use a phone as a gateway/modem if it keeps the profile of the IT lighter.


13) stereo headphones WITH microphone

Sort of like the headphones for the iPhone.


14) bluetooth stereo headphones

Sony (I think?) just came out with a pair.


15) And, a pair that combine #13 and #14 would be nice (bluetooth device that is both stereo headphones and a phone headset).


16) The ability to use the IT as a bluetooth device:

a) as a dialer for a phone (use the IT to pick a phone number to call, and have the phone dial that number)
b) as a 'headset' for a phone (so, you could use the IT's speaker and microphone, or the various headphone and microphone options (existing with the N800, or #'s 13, 14 and 15 above)).

Combine those, with the ability to use the phone as an IP modem, and you've basically just turned the phone into a back-end device, and the user only interacts with the IT. Plus, combined with #10, and the existing Skype software, and you've got the ability to choose between SIP, Skype, or mobile voice for your calls.


17) Companion Nokia phone product

A multi-vendor capabile Nokia phone that has no UI (past the bare minimum to mate it with the IT, so basically you use this as just a connection gateway to the phone network, and an internet gateway, using your IT for all of the user facing parts of a phone call, etc.). Though, this becomes less interesting if the next gen IT just has a multi-protocol mobile phone built in (#12).


18) USB host

In addition to the USB-client port that the N800 has, add a USB-host port, so you can hook up a keyboard, card readers, and maybe even a wired network adaptor (for times when wireless isn't private enough). Ability to hookup to a tiny 4port USB hub would be nice, too (so you can simultaneously use the keyboard, card reader, and wired network).


19) flash via wifi+web

Why do I need to download the new OS image to a desktop computer? If there's a segregated memory model, and/or if I have a large enough memory card installed, why can't I have an option to "flash from local memory"? Obviosly, you still need to have the desktop computer for emergency restores in case of a catastrophy or something ... but it seems like a general case for a "download new system image direct to local flash card, flash from downloaded image" feature would make sense.

johnkzin 2007-09-20 10:21

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Oh, I forgot one:

20) Separate screen preferences for AC power vs battery power

If I've got the N800 plugged in, why can't I have it set to never dim the screen? I'd like the next gen IT to have separate settings for:

Brightness
Brightness Period
Switch off the display

based on whether or not the device has external AC power or is on battery power. This is common enough on laptops that it seems like a no-brainer here.

geneven 2007-09-20 12:56

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
This was an interesting list. I hope someone from Nokia reads it and pays attention.

sjgadsby 2007-09-20 13:31

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76601)
20) Separate screen preferences for AC power vs battery power

Please vote for bug 1046.

Noneus 2007-09-20 13:32

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
I like your ideas.

Additional stuff I want to see in the next device:
-More Protocols for the standard IM application.
-A better mediaplayer with more formats (mplayer with more arm optimizations would be nice.) It should play the new mpeg4-stuff(h264 and aac) at full speed.
-External connector to attach an antenna for wifi stuff.
-Builtin GPS solution.
-Better quality camera that should be faced more towards the user, so your face is more centered. (On the N800 your face is in the left side of the picture if your about 40cm away.)

Then concerning the keyboard:
I understand what you say. But I don't know if that is a good solution. You would have to add space for the turn-mechanics. At the moment my N800 just fits in the pockets at my behind. I'd hate if the next model couldn't do that.
There is no way of typing with more than a few fingers on such a small keyboard. So I guess I'd be ok with a slider keyboard. I think I'd type on it like I type on the onscreen keyboard now: with my 2 thumbs.

fanoush 2007-09-20 13:41

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
4) Segregated internal memory

I can't think of a decent reason why flasher erases user data and user applications. Flashing system memory should not affect user data and user memory. /home/user and whatever is the equivalent of /usr/local should be in a separate memory space that doesn't get touched/harmed by flasher when you upgrade the OS.

This should be better rephrased as 'Ability to update/upgrade OS via package management, not via flashing monolithic firmware image'. This feature is coming in some future release. This is how linux distributions for PC work.

You really don't want segregated internal memory and handle situation when one of those parts is full but the other one has free space. Also technically there is no difference between system packages and user supplied ones so you can't draw line easily. For separate memory space you can use use SD/MMC card.

Karel Jansens 2007-09-20 13:42

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Noneus (Post 76628)
-Better quality camera that should be faced more towards the user, so your face is more centered. (On the N800 your face is in the left side of the picture if your about 40cm away.)

Really? I always figured that if you were actually making a video call, you'd look more at the sender's picture, which would automatically put your own gob more in the center on his side.

Obviously, not being able to make any video calls other than to other N800 users, I haven't been able to test this theory out. Thank you, Nokia.

TA-t3 2007-09-20 13:52

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Re: >8

As for the built-in email client I actually have very few problems with it.
There's only one major bug: When using IMAP, it ignores the 'message already read' flag.
Then there's a feature missing: There's no way to mark a message as 'read'. With such a feature the bug above would be less problematic to live with.

The built-in email client only looks at the IMAP inbox, no other folders or subfolders. That's exactly what I prefer for my setup (at the server I filter away things that can wait to other folders, later to be read at the desktop). For other users it may be the other way around: What's good for me is a limitation for them.

For the rest, I find the osso-email client easy to use: No guesswork.

sjgadsby 2007-09-20 13:59

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
10) Generic SIP VOIP/Phone capability

Does the RTCOMM update not provide what you need?


Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
13) stereo headphones WITH microphone

Sort of like the headphones for the iPhone.

I'm not familiar with what comes with the iPhone. How are the stereo headphones with built-in microphone that come with the iPhone better than the stereo headphones with built-in microphone that come with the N800?


Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
14) bluetooth stereo headphones

Sony (I think?) just came out with a pair.

Doesn't Nokia already sell these?


Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
18) USB host

You may want to vote for bug 368.


Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
19) flash via wifi+web

Why do I need to download the new OS image to a desktop computer?

Nokia's Internet tablet developers have said that a future goal is to restructure things so that system updates are more modular and will take place using the Application manager. Updates will also apply without wiping out installed applications and saved data.

Flashing the device from a desktop and wiping everything will be left as just a final resort repair method at that point.

sjgadsby 2007-09-20 14:10

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
8) Better Email Client

Modest is coming, though it's unclear when.

Right now, Claws-mail keeps me happy.

zerojay 2007-09-20 14:19

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
2) non-keyboard button layout (next to the screen)

I'd like to see something a little more game-friendly, but not if it makes the tablet much thicker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
3) 2 cameras

One low quality chat cam on the front, one higher quality picture taking cam on the back.

That would be nice, but I could live without having two cameras and just having one on the top edge that you could have face in front of you or your face.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
4) Segregated internal memory

I can't think of a decent reason why flasher erases user data and user applications. Flashing system memory should not affect user data and user memory. /home/user and whatever is the equivalent of /usr/local should be in a separate memory space that doesn't get touched/harmed by flasher when you upgrade the OS.

Segregated memory is not a good idea in a tablet like this. As stated, we won't need to reflash anymore after Chinook (hopefully).

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
5) Support for the Seagate D.A.V.E.

I don't own one, so I couldn't care less.
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
6) Build in Syncing ability

Would be nice, but I'm not a business user, so it's not that big a deal. I would just be happy if the contacts would stop duplicating all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
7) The current mozilla based browser, microb, is slow and clumsy in comparison to opera. I'd like to see that fixed. I see a very noticeable difference in start-up speed and load speed with microb compared to opera. Further, trying to hold down a URL to get the context menu is hit-and-miss on microb. I think it would make a lot of sense to have a very smooth and polished mozilla based browser included in the base configuration (along with opera).

microb is a beta running a beta version of a HTTP renderer, so I don't think this is such a big deal for the moment. It's based upon the bleeding edge version of Gecko, which will be used in Firefox 3.0. I'd imagine that by the time Chinook rolls around, we'll see it running smoother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
8) Better Email Client

I can understand this, though I personally am happy with the client.

9) The last 3 combine to also say:

what about a scaled down version of the mozilla calendar apps? Or some sort of built in calendar?

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
10) Generic SIP VOIP/Phone capability

You can either check out the RTCOMM beta or, if you aren't the kind of person that likes filing bugs and trying to fix crashes, wait for it to be included in Chinook. It allows you to pretty much do what you've asked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
11) WiMAX

I hope that the Sprint WiMAX version of the N800 would see that feature (WiMAX) carry forward into the next gen IT as well.

Pretty much the only thing that could make the N800 more useful than it is already. Canada's already covered pretty heavily with WiMAX... I just hope it will be supported here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
12) 3G mobile/cellular radio

So long as it's an option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
13) stereo headphones WITH microphone

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the earbuds that come with the N800 were stereo and also had a microphone. I wouldn't know personally as I can't use earbuds (far too uncomfortable for me).

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
14) bluetooth stereo headphones

Newer versions of the Linux bluetooth stack, Bluez, contains support for AD2P... so I would imagine this should be possible soon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
15) And, a pair that combine #13 and #14 would be nice (bluetooth device that is both stereo headphones and a phone headset).

Agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
16) The ability to use the IT as a bluetooth device:

a) as a dialer for a phone (use the IT to pick a phone number to call, and have the phone dial that number)
b) as a 'headset' for a phone (so, you could use the IT's speaker and microphone, or the various headphone and microphone options (existing with the N800, or #'s 13, 14 and 15 above)).

Combine those, with the ability to use the phone as an IP modem, and you've basically just turned the phone into a back-end device, and the user only interacts with the IT. Plus, combined with #10, and the existing Skype software, and you've got the ability to choose between SIP, Skype, or mobile voice for your calls.

Not sure I see the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
18) USB host

It's supposedly a big power drain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
19) flash via wifi+web

Why do I need to download the new OS image to a desktop computer? If there's a segregated memory model, and/or if I have a large enough memory card installed, why can't I have an option to "flash from local memory"? Obviosly, you still need to have the desktop computer for emergency restores in case of a catastrophy or something ... but it seems like a general case for a "download new system image direct to local flash card, flash from downloaded image" feature would make sense.

You *never* flash stuff by Wifi. Flash by writing an image on a card... I could see that being more useful, but I just know people are going to find some way to do it accidentally and then complain about it.

zerojay 2007-09-20 14:22

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Noneus (Post 76628)
-More Protocols for the standard IM application.

Use a Jabber server with several gateways. I do that and it works quite well for me. Native support would be nice though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76597)
-A better mediaplayer with more formats (mplayer with more arm optimizations would be nice.) It should play the new mpeg4-stuff(h264 and aac) at full speed.

Agreed, but I don't know what kind of CPU power requirements it would need to do h264 and all that.

Noneus 2007-09-20 14:43

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karel Jansens (Post 76633)
Really? I always figured that if you were actually making a video call, you'd look more at the sender's picture, which would automatically put your own gob more in the center on his side.

ObvObviously, not being able to make any video calls other than to other N800 users, I
haven't been able to test this theory out. Thank you, Nokia.

i attached a picture from thr builtin camera with me looking directly on the device.

Quote:

Agreed, but I don't know what kind of CPU power requirements it would need to do h264 and all that.
you could use a decoderchip. there was one on linuxdevices with 1w powerconsumption.

krisse 2007-09-20 14:49

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
The N800's earphones already have a microphone, you can see it on the top of the plastic thing with the button on it.

People can hear you fine if you just wear the earphones and talk as normal, you don't have to hold it up to your mouth or anything like that.

The N800's headset is almost identical to the headset bundled with Nokia phones, except it has a 3.5mm plug instead of a 2.5mm plug.

sjgadsby 2007-09-20 15:09

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zerojay (Post 76648)
johnkzin: 12) 3G mobile/cellular radio

So long as it's an option.

I throw my support behind you here. I have no need for a cell phone, and I have no interest in Nokia adding bulk, power drain, additional upfront costs, or ongoing monthly costs to the Internet tablet line for a feature I'll never use.

johnkzin 2007-09-20 17:24

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Noneus (Post 76628)
There is no way of typing with more than a few fingers on such a small keyboard. So I guess I'd be ok with a slider keyboard. I think I'd type on it like I type on the onscreen keyboard now: with my 2 thumbs.


The keyboard I propose would be a thumb keyboard. In the same size range as the freedom input "slim" keyboard (about the size of a credit card), or the qwerty keyboards you find on a cell phone (the sidekick or MDA, for example).

The advantage over the onscreen keyboard is: you don't take up screen real-estate with it, so you can see the actual thing you're typing in to while you type (unlike the full-screen finger keyboard on the N800).

johnkzin 2007-09-20 17:27

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fanoush (Post 76632)
This should be better rephrased as 'Ability to update/upgrade OS via package management, not via flashing monolithic firmware image'.


That works for me (instead of segragated memory for flashing, or flashing via wifi+web).

johnkzin 2007-09-20 17:45

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sjgadsby (Post 76642)
Does the RTCOMM update not provide what you need?

I hadn't heard of it until now. I'll look into it. Thanks :-)


Quote:

I'm not familiar with what comes with the iPhone. How are the stereo headphones with built-in microphone that come with the iPhone better than the stereo headphones with built-in microphone that come with the N800?
As far as I know/knew, the included headphones don't have a microphone. Am I wrong about that? If the little box on the wire is not just a switch but also a mic, then that would make it "almost exactly the same, functionally, as the iPhone headphones".


Quote:

Doesn't Nokia already sell these?
Do they work with the N800? I didn't know about them because they're not on the N800's accessory pages (at least, not for the USA store).

And, are any of them also usable as a phone headset? or just for listening?


Quote:

You may want to vote for bug 368.
I just did, thanks :-)


Quote:

Nokia's Internet tablet developers have said that a future goal is to restructure things so that system updates are more modular and will take place using the Application manager. Updates will also apply without wiping out installed applications and saved data.

Flashing the device from a desktop and wiping everything will be left as just a final resort repair method at that point.
That sounds pretty much perfect.

johnkzin 2007-09-20 17:48

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sjgadsby (Post 76643)
Modest is coming, though it's unclear when.

Right now, Claws-mail keeps me happy.

Claws-mail keeps me 90% happy. My main desire for a micro-thunderbird is that, when combined with a micro-firefox and a micro-sunbird (or lightning on micro-thunderbird) is that you'd have 1 suite of apps for web/mail/calendar/contacts. And, for me, they'd be the same as what I use on my desktop(s).

johnkzin 2007-09-20 18:10

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zerojay (Post 76648)
I'd like to see something a little more game-friendly, but not if it makes the tablet much thicker.

One consequence of my propose button layout would be that it could be more easily used for games. That's not my main reason for the proposal, but it would work (the dpad on left, select on right, and then put the application-specific button on the lower right ... you've got 2 game buttons and an 8way dpad). Though, my specific recommendation of 8way dpads instead of 4way dpads is exactly for game support. If they didn't want to support games at all, then 4way dpads is "good enough".

My main reason was ergonomics. I find the current "dpad+select" to be awkward to use, as I'm always on the verge of accidetly hitting select when I change directions on the dpad. I'd prefer to dpad with one thumb, and select with the other.


Quote:

That would be nice, but I could live without having two cameras and just having one on the top edge that you could have face in front of you or your face.
I could probably live with that, but I'm not sure that small camera that would have to fit in such a rotating enclosure would be enough for taking decent pictures.


Quote:

Segregated memory is not a good idea in a tablet like this. As stated, we won't need to reflash anymore after Chinook (hopefully).
When is Chinook supposed to be out, and where can I more directly read about the future OS releases (is there a spot on the maemo page for that, or are they posted in the OS forums on here?).

Quote:

I don't own one, so I couldn't care less.
I don't either. But I'd like to. And it'd hold a huge library of music and documents that I wouldn't have to clutter up my N800 with.

Quote:

Would be nice, but I'm not a business user, so it's not that big a deal. I would just be happy if the contacts would stop duplicating all the time.
I'm not a business user either. But I have a desktop at work, a desktop at home, and might someday own a laptop again (though, I think the N800 almost makes that idea obsolete, once I get a bluetooth keyboard). Having to manually keep these things in sync, or remember "oh, I only bookmarked that at work, I guess I'll have to email myself that link", is just annoying and a waste of time. A central sync'ing ability saves that kind of time whether you're a business user or not.


Quote:

microb is a beta running a beta version of a HTTP renderer, so I don't think this is such a big deal for the moment. It's based upon the bleeding edge version of Gecko, which will be used in Firefox 3.0. I'd imagine that by the time Chinook rolls around, we'll see it running smoother.
I'll be happy if microb continues to get better and better.


Quote:

You can either check out the RTCOMM beta or, if you aren't the kind of person that likes filing bugs and trying to fix crashes, wait for it to be included in Chinook. It allows you to pretty much do what you've asked.
It does look like it does what I want (from what I found out from a previous comment). Sounds like chinook will be a very useful code release.


Quote:

So long as it's an option.
3G and cell phone ability aren't a major one for me. I'd be just as happy relying upon an external cell phone, if I can use the N800 for the call (my "bluetooth dialer" and "n800 as bluetooth headset" items).


Quote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the earbuds that come with the N800 were stereo and also had a microphone. I wouldn't know personally as I can't use earbuds (far too uncomfortable for me).
I wasn't aware of them having a microphone. Plus, I also prefer non-ear-buds.



Quote:

Not sure I see the point.
I don't mind having multiple devices that I carry ... such as an N800, a cell phone, and a D.A.V.E. or an iPod ... but I don't want to have to switch among them. With the 2 items I mentioned, I can always use the N800.

Use the N800 for browsing the web and reading email.

I can use an extensive HD store of music, such as the DAVE, but play them through my N800, instead of switching devices.

If a phone call hits my cell phone, the N800s ability to control the phone via bluetooth lets me see who is calling without switching devices. Then I can take the call on the N800 if I want to ... again, without switching devices.

1 control device. 1 set of headphones/headset. But multiple devices that are each specialized for what they do (N800 for user facing stuff, DAVE for storage, phone for interfacing to the wireless WAN).


Quote:

It's supposedly a big power drain.
The things I would use it for would only be used when I'm near AC power anyway. So, I don't mind if the hub+keyboard+card-reader+wired-ethernet is a power drain, because I'll have wall-power at the time.

sjgadsby 2007-09-20 18:11

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76698)
If the little box on the wire is not just a switch but also a mic, then that would make it "almost exactly the same, functionally, as the iPhone headphones".

The box is indeed a microphone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76698)
Do they work with the N800?

No. Yes. Both.

Nokia hasn't released Bluetooth audio support yet for the Internet tablets; however, they've said that such support is coming. Several Nokia developers work on BlueZ, and folks from Nokia have stated that Nokia, as a company, hate wires, so they aren't pleased that the Internet tablets require so many.

In the mean time, apparently you can get A2DP working with some effort. I think it only works with Kagu at the moment, and it may suck your battery dry, but it's there.

Hopefully, official support from Nokia will come soon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76698)
And, are any of them also usable as a phone headset? or just for listening?

After reading Nokia's product pages, I'm not clear on that myself.

If not, then this Plantronics headset looks rather nifty, if you're looking to travel light.

johnkzin 2007-09-20 18:18

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sjgadsby (Post 76664)
I throw my support behind you here. I have no need for a cell phone, and I have no interest in Nokia adding bulk, power drain, additional upfront costs, or ongoing monthly costs to the Internet tablet line for a feature I'll never use.

Just so it's clear: I'm _more_than_happy_ with it being 100% optional. I like the wifi-only aspect of the N800 just fine. But I also want tighter integration between the N800 and the phone I might use as a gateway. If that can't happen, then maybe I would want to use the N800 as a cell phone as well, which also gets you IP via 3G.

Though, I've seen some devices that have wireless IP via GSM or 3G, but not voice call ability. That'd be an interesting option, too.

But, ultimately, yes: 100% optional. I want the option to only use my next gen IT with wifi, and no monthly fee.

pieter_jh 2007-09-20 18:23

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Output to a big screen and proper keyboard - via the USB port? would be high on my wishlist. Then I can dump my laptop completely. PLEASE NOKIA! if you can put TV out on your phones such as the N95 and N93i then I am sure the tablet can get it too? And tablet users would actually USE it!.

johnkzin 2007-09-20 18:24

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sjgadsby (Post 76709)
and folks from Nokia have stated that Nokia, as a company, hate wires, so they aren't pleased that the Internet tablets require so many.


Does that mean that, some day, the built in FM tuner wont require you to have headphones plugged in?

I didn't put that on my list because the FM tuner is a "neat extra", and not a requirement for me in any way. But, as long as its there, an internal antenna instead of having to attach something external, would be a nice option. Or, maybe, a little bit of an internal antenna, and then use the headphone wire if one is available (for better reception).

johnkzin 2007-09-20 18:25

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pieter_jh (Post 76720)
Output to a big screen and proper keyboard - via the USB port? would be high on my wishlist. Then I can dump my laptop completely. PLEASE NOKIA! if you can put TV out on your phones such as the N95 and N93i then I am sure the tablet can get it too? And tablet users would actually USE it!.

Have you tried displaying to your desktop/laptop via VNC server? (I did see a VNC server option for the N800, didn't I?)

sjgadsby 2007-09-20 18:56

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76721)
But, as long as its there, an internal antenna instead of having to attach something external, would be a nice option. Or, maybe, a little bit of an internal antenna, and then use the headphone wire if one is available (for better reception).

That does sound nifty, but I suspect it would be difficult to devise an internal antenna that's at all useful. I seem to recall that FM antennas should ideally be approximately 60 inches long to cover half a wavelength, with shorter, quarter wavelength lengths possible, but only with reduced reception.

sjgadsby 2007-09-20 19:00

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76698)
Do they work with the N800?

I forgot to mention before, bug 667 provides more information on the current state (and future) of A2DP support. It also provides another chance for folks to vote and (hopefully) influence the future of Internet tablet OS development.

johnkzin 2007-09-20 19:30

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sjgadsby (Post 76735)
That does sound nifty, but I suspect it would be difficult to devise an internal antenna that's at all useful. I seem to recall that FM antennas should ideally be approximately 60 inches long to cover half a wavelength, with shorter, quarter wavelength lengths possible, but only with reduced reception.

Does it have to be a straight line antenna? I've seen tons of little FM radios out there that are built into head phones, MP3 players, etc. So, I wonder if you can make the antenna wind around in a circle or square or something.

But, I'm definitely not an antenna guy.

sjgadsby 2007-09-20 19:56

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 76738)
Does it have to be a straight line antenna? I've seen tons of little FM radios out there that are built into head phones, MP3 players, etc. So, I wonder if you can make the antenna wind around in a circle or square or something.

But, I'm definitely not an antenna guy.

I think it needs to be a straight line, but I'm not an antenna guy either.

tayedrumma 2007-09-20 20:50

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
i second the notion on the straight line... but then again, i too am not an antenna guy

sfitz 2007-09-20 22:31

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
As for the tri-fold, or mini-laptop design, that's what Sharp had with their C750 designs.

There was 2 issues:
1) I was afraid I would twist the screen the wrong way and snap it off
2) it made for a much heavier device.

Which brings me to my $0.02 worth of a topic. :)

Can we have something that can be placed in the pocket without ripping my shirt off my back. Makes for an awkward social situation. ;)

But I like the idea of the tri-fold where 1 is the cover for the screen.

johnkzin 2007-09-20 23:07

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sfitz (Post 76771)
As for the tri-fold, or mini-laptop design, that's what Sharp had with their C750 designs.

There was 2 issues:
1) I was afraid I would twist the screen the wrong way and snap it off
2) it made for a much heavier device.

I don't think the tri-fold is at all the same as the Sharp Zaurus line. They were bi-fold.

The twist screen isn't part of the tri-fold. The "tablet" functionality for the tri-fold comes from hyper-extending the hinge between the screen and keyboard, not by twisting the screen. You don't twist it, you just "keep opening it past 180 degrees", and then you fold section 3 to cover the keyboard. (section 3 never covers the screen, the screen gets covered by the keyboard)

And I don't think it necessarily makes for a heavier device. If you take the same parts that are in the N800, and just move some of them to different sections, it should work fine. Possible examples:

section 1) screen, chat camera, speakers, mic, headphone jack, and buttons*
section 2) thumb keyboard, batteries, and power plug
section 3) memory cards, USB Host and USB Client plugs, and picture camera

(* both face buttons and edge buttons, like zoom in, zoom out, full screen, and power, just like on the current design)

The only weight I've added is: hinges, thumb keyboard (should be very light, given the size and weight of the freedom input slim bluetooth keyboard), a second keyboard, a USB Host plug, and some extra plastic for the extra casing. Though, I bet you could add a second battery into section 2, and it wouldn't be a problem.

The question is: where do the logic boards for the CPU, internal memory, and wifi go? Maybe spread throughout all 3 sections. Dunno.

johnkzin 2007-09-20 23:20

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
I tried to do a more explicit ascii-art rendering of the tri-fold idea, but couldn't get the editor to preserve spacing and such.

I'll try to draw one up later, and post an link to the image.

johnkzin 2007-10-04 04:20

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Oh, one more feature I want:

charge via USB. These days, people make wall->USB chargers, car->USB chargers.... seems to me, the idea of a separate plug for charging is a waste.

The only thing I can think of to justify it on the n800 is the way you do flashing and initiating USB client mode ... but I bet something else could be done for that.

fanoush 2007-10-04 08:35

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnkzin (Post 79654)
Oh, one more feature I want:

charge via USB.

I guess this conflicts with usb host mode. Both electrically and also from the usability point of view. I'd like to charge the device when I have USB peripherial (keyboard,mouse, ... whatever) attached so separate plug is definitely not waste of space. It could optionally charge from usb when attached to computer and set to client mode but separate plug is still needed.

lardman 2007-10-04 09:19

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Does it have to be a straight line antenna? I've seen tons of little FM radios out there that are built into head phones, MP3 players, etc. So, I wonder if you can make the antenna wind around in a circle or square or something.
They all use the headphones as an antenna though. AM is different, that can use a very short antenna from what I remember (not all that useful though)

Quote:

A better mediaplayer with more formats (mplayer with more arm optimizations would be nice.) It should play the new mpeg4-stuff(h264 and aac) at full speed.
mplayer does most of its decoding on the ARM processor (except for sending mp3 to the dsp with the appropriate command line switches), there's presumably nothing stopping people from compiling and optimising the remaining gstreamer components (as the N800 only uses a few of them) to do decoding on the ARM (+DSP) and output in the standard video player.

Quote:

15) And, a pair that combine #13 and #14 would be nice (bluetooth device that is both stereo headphones and a phone headset).
I have some stereo bluetooth headphones, I can listen to music using them and my n800 and they work like a hands free kit with my phone, I've never tried making a call with my N800 so I can't tell you whether the microphone works with it (but the hardware is there so I see no reason why it couldn't be made to work).

Quote:

4) Segregated internal memory
We used to have this on the Cxxx(x) Zauruses, I certainly wasn't all that fond of it - generally I had loads of free space on my /home partition and had filled up /. Equally, when you upgrade, the configuration files left behind in hidden directories under your home directory almost always screwed something up. I suppose the same problem with occur if one uses a backup tool, but one of these could be rule based to avoid some problems.

Quote:

19) flash via wifi+web
I think that unless it's small patches or updates, you'll end up preferring to flash a new image after making a backup (this assumes a really good backup tool, which can backup a list of installed applications, etc.). It's simply faster and cleaner - any 'fixes/hacks' you've made to the underlying system (which will hopefully have been addresses in the update) will not remain lying about breaking things.

On the Zaurus (OpenZaurus), depsite my not using a backup tool (other than copying data to the flash card), I think it was easier as the package manager would let you select a whole raft of packages to install and then do it all in one go, rather than having to select, install, wait for the list to refresh, find your position again, and repeat.


Simon

YoDude 2007-10-04 10:20

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
How about this "High Definition" radio I'm hearing about?

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_Radio

DataPath 2007-10-04 13:31

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
I would love to see an upgrade radio chip that supports RDS (especially RDS-TMC) decoding.

RDS can carry all kinds of metadata that can be useful to people, especially while on the road:
  • TMC: Traffic Message Channel
  • CT: Clock Time
  • AF: Alternate Frequency (when a signal is getting weak, an alternative frequency for the station can be indicated)
  • PS: Program Service (station identification)
  • RT: Radio Text (artist, title information, etc)

johnkzin 2007-10-04 14:07

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fanoush (Post 79671)
I guess this conflicts with usb host mode. Both electrically and also from the usability point of view. I'd like to charge the device when I have USB peripherial (keyboard,mouse, ... whatever) attached so separate plug is definitely not waste of space. It could optionally charge from usb when attached to computer and set to client mode but separate plug is still needed.

If it was "2 USB ports, one host and one client" I wouldn't consider that to be a waste of space. But "1 USB port and one power plug" I do consider to be a waste. A power plug limits your charging options (has to be a charger of some sort), where a second USB port gives you more flexibility (a charger with a USB port, a USB port on your desktop compter, a USB port on your laptop, etc.). I think it's just a more universal plug format: "the charger" becomes a commodity, instead of having to own X different chargers for Y different devices. If they all use USB, then you just need 1 powered USB hub that has enough ports to charge all of your devices.

johnkzin 2007-10-04 14:14

Re: Next Gen Tablet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DataPath (Post 79703)
I would love to see an upgrade radio chip that supports RDS (especially RDS-TMC) decoding.

RDS can carry all kinds of metadata that can be useful to people, especially while on the road:
  • TMC: Traffic Message Channel
  • CT: Clock Time
  • AF: Alternate Frequency (when a signal is getting weak, an alternative frequency for the station can be indicated)
  • PS: Program Service (station identification)
  • RT: Radio Text (artist, title information, etc)

Neat ... but in order for Nokia to sellt it in both the US and Europe, wouldn't it have to support both RDS and RBDS?


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