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-   -   The new QWERTY device project (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=99632)

Dave999 2018-08-01 08:04
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merienth (Post 1546797)
... oh how refreshing to read through 3 pages of posts where 2 frogs and an endsor speculates about speculation... ;-)
Who is the other frog? You?

Unfortunately speculation is the only thing we can do until chen decides to release the prototype images and/or release date.

Waiting for your mighty input to this thread. More quality contribution needed.

SaiKo 2018-08-01 13:25
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
few days ago people were talking about trackpads...

i remember the samsung omnia having something like that.

http://www.mobile-phone.pk/images/mo...00-Omnia-1.jpg

it functioned as a button and swiping over the button it functioned as arrow keys (depending on direction of swipe).

you could activate 'mouse-mode' in settings which would enable a mouse arrow on screen and then swiping over it would move the mouse arrow (it was running windows mobile), like an actual trackpad, pushing the button = clicking the 'mouse'.

it worked surprisingly well as arrow keys, only sometimes used it in mouse-mode (when i was surfing and there were too many tiny links next to each other to press comfortably with fingers without pressing on the wrong one).

htc desire z had a similar button although i'm not sure it had the same funcionality

after the omnia i got me the n900 and ended up on this place... ahhh nostalgia.

Kabouik 2018-08-01 16:45
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Oh, I didn't know about that example. I am convinced that for the space it takes, I would be worth it. Having a cursor on a landscape phone with a qwerty keyboard is in my opinion a must, and the Gemini weaknesses demonstrate it.

If the Livermorium is capable of running Debian or other desktop OSes, then it would be a huge pro to be capable of using them without a big finger on the screen all the time (this never works on OSes that are not made for it, and it's not comfortable either), an inaccurate capacitive stylus, and without plugging a mouse. We would be able to use these OSes on the go. And even if it doesn't run these OSes, then it should still be able to run Teamviewer/Nomachine/VNC/Parsec/Shadow, and therefore a mouse would be needed too.

Dave999 2018-08-01 18:32
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabouik (Post 1546826)
Oh, I didn't know about that example. I am convinced that for the space it takes, I would be worth it. Having a cursor on a landscape phone with a qwerty keyboard is in my opinion a must, and the Gemini weaknesses demonstrate it.

If the Livermorium is capable of running Debian or other desktop OSes, then it would be a huge pro to be capable of using them without a big finger on the screen all the time (this never works on OSes that are not made for it, and it's not comfortable either), an inaccurate capacitive stylus, and without plugging a mouse. We would be able to use these OSes on the go. And even if it doesn't run these OSes, then it should still be able to run Teamviewer/Nomachine/VNC/Parsec/Shadow, and therefore a mouse would be needed too.
Do you know if Chen trying to design a pocket Computer or a smartphone with qwerty? Or just trying to achive a topnotch slider/QWERTY experience?

Merienth 2018-08-01 20:48
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1546800)
Who is the other frog? You?

Unfortunately speculation is the only thing we can do until chen decides to release the prototype images and/or release date.

Waiting for your mighty input to this thread. More quality contribution needed.
Don´t take my comment as an offense. Oddly enough I really do like to read throuh such comments... this is how I like talk.maemo ;)

And for the 2nd frog: Fellfrosch in german roughly means Peltfrog or Furfrog in english.

Kabouik 2018-08-02 02:01
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1546828)
Do you know if Chen trying to design a pocket Computer or a smartphone with qwerty? Or just trying to achive a topnotch slider/QWERTY experience?
As far as I know, he definitely aims at offering a smartphone with hwkb, not a pocket computer. For instance, the keyboard should be made for thumb typing, as opposed to the Gemini's, and the slider is also more convenient for handheld use than the clamshell on the Gemini. Nonetheless, I am sure a hwkb smartphone with cursor control (or accurate stylus like the N900) could perform better as a mini computer than the Gemini. At least on the move, since I don't know if the Livermorium will have video-out.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Gemini and would probably buy one if there was no Livermorium project in the picture, but the clamshell makes it a PDA (or computer when booting Debian) and uncomfortable phone, whereas the lack of accurate cursor control makes it uncomfortable for PDA/computer use. In the end, it could be unconfortable in both cases. The Livermorium could use that to bring together the best of both usecases with slider + trackpad, and better compete.

We don't know if it will be as interesting as the Gemini for multibooting, I hope it will. But even if it does not, as long as I have 4G, I can stream with no latency (Parsec, Shadow) a remote computer and therefore make it a PDA/computer. And it's great, except for the immense frustration of having to use a touchscreen with big fingers missclicking and hiding what I want to ckick. Plus, in case of a hwkb phone, the screen is further from the fingers, I remember fron the Jolla + Tohkbd that moving the hands all the time to touch the screen was getting old.

Dave999 2018-08-02 07:24
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabouik (Post 1546840)
As far as I know, he definitely aims at offering a smarthphone with hwkb, not a pocket computer. For instance, the keyboard should be made for thumb typing, as opposed to the Gemini's, and the slider is also more convenient for handheld use than the clamshell on the Gemini. Nonetheless, I am sure a hwkb smartphone with cursor control (or accurate stylus like the N900) could perform better as a mini computer than the Gemini. At least on the move, since I don't know if the Livermorium will have video-out.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Gemini and would probably buy one if there was no Livermorium project in the picture, but the clamshell makes it a PDA (or computer when booting Debian) and uncomfortable phone, whereas the lack of accurate cursor control makes it uncomfortable for PDA/computer use. In the end, it could be unconfortable in both cases. The Livermorium could use that to bring together the best of both usecases with slider + trackpad, and better compete.

We don't know if it will be as interesting as the Gemini for multibooting, I hope it will. But even if it does not, as long as I have 4G, I can stream with no latency (Parsec, Shadow) a remote computer and therefore make it a PDA/computer. And it's great, except for the immense frustration of having to use a touchscreen with big fingers missclicking and hiding what I want to ckick. Plus, in case of a hwkb phone, the screen is further from the fingers, I remember fron the Jolla + Tohkbd that moving the hands all the time to touch the screen was getting old.
To me going for a smartphone as you said, and not a pocket computer, exlude a cursor mover or atleast adding it somewhere in the bottom of requirement list. Just ahead of built in solar charger. Smartphone must have plenty of features that is more important to solve and work extremely well together with selcted OS. Better to focus power and brain cells here if this shall play well in the real world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merienth (Post 1546830)
Don´t take my comment as an offense. Oddly enough I really do like to read throuh such comments... this is how I like talk.maemo ;)

And for the 2nd frog: Fellfrosch in german roughly means Peltfrog or Furfrog in english.
Ah, it was to advanced for me to figure out, das peltfrog!

pichlo 2018-08-02 09:28
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1546844)
To me going for a smartphone [...] exlude a cursor mover or atleast adding it somewhere in the bottom of requirement list.
This is where we disagree. The lack of ability to position the cursor precisely is IMO the main drawback of all current "smart" phones. Keep in mind that this is not just for hitting random buttons on the screen. It is, most importantly, to navigate through the text you are typing and correct mistakes, select blocks of text for copying to clipboard and the like.

Fellfrosch 2018-08-02 10:29
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1546853)
This is where we disagree. The lack of ability to position the cursor precisely is IMO the main drawback of all current "smart" phones.
We do not agree thaaaat often, or...??
Well this time I agree with you to AT LEAST 100% :D

Kabouik 2018-08-02 10:57
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1546844)
To me going for a smartphone as you said, and not a pocket computer, exlude a cursor mover or atleast adding it somewhere in the bottom of requirement list. Just ahead of built in solar charger. Smartphone must have plenty of features that is more important to solve and work extremely well together with selcted OS. Better to focus power and brain cells here if this shall play well in the real world.
I don't know. To be honest I would agree for about any "exotic" feature *but* the cursor. As Pichlo said, just because it has become a standard to use OSes without accurate cursor movements thanks to the spread of smartphones doesn't mean that it is convenient.

After all, now that I remember it, Blackberry phones used to have a trackpad (maybe they still do?) and I remember seeing people using it all the time for mobile use, like emails or browsing, not for the mini-computer use I was mentioning earlier. There was also this Samsung Omnia example in the previous page, and I believe the Motorola Droid even had a small touchpad (but to be honest I'm not sure it's better than a Blackberry trackpad), plus devices with resistive screen and stylus like our beloved Nokia phones or other "pro" phones. It would take up very little space and would be a huge comfort/productivity advantage in both mobile OS and mini-computer use cases.

Dave999 2018-08-02 13:52
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Ok. Guys. And how many smartphone os have curser available? Yeah. I’m talking OSes that people actually use?

The fact that you even want a cursor means you want a computer rather than a smartphone. Don’t disagree with me when you don’t know what you want :D

Kabouik 2018-08-02 14:10
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
All OSes have some sort of text selection, and the trackpad can already be used for better accuracy on that, even in Android. New Blackberry phones running Android have this feature for instance. This is of course a limited use but, most importantly, you can have a real mouse cursor in Android as long as a mouse is detected, and then you can use it to do [things] (Settings > Developer Options > Show Pointer location).

Also, I don't think wanting a way to control a cursor means wanting a computer, see this poll for a Blackberry device (with Blackberry OS at this time):

https://reho.st/crackberry.com/sites...?itok=5FF7B3-i
https://crackberry.com/plenty-users-...kberry-classic

The scope of the poll is rather limited, but it's still several thousand votes and it shows most people were using the cursor for a mobile OS. Increasing productivity does not necessarily mean turning the phone into a computer. But with a landscape HWKB phone, you could actually do it when needed, as long as you have a cursor, and that doesn't mean it would be a bad phone otherwise.

pichlo 2018-08-02 14:48
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1546876)
Ok. Guys. And how many smartphone os have curser available? Yeah. I’m talking OSes that people actually use?
Very few. Don't you get it? That is exactly the point!!!

Mind you, I do not believe for a single second that customers "do not want" a pointing device. Or a keyboard. Or a device the size they can actually use. But they cannot have that, because the manufactures do not give them the option. Because it is easier for the manufacturers to do it that way. So the customers have to settle.

I can see that in your case the marketing ploy worked perfectly. You have my full commiseration.

imaginaryenemy 2018-08-02 15:21
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabouik (Post 1546877)
New Blackberry phones running Android have this feature for instance.
My last two BlackBerry devices (one BB10 and one Android) have had capacitive keyboard functions. They appear to be normal hardware keyboards but have some touch sensitive aspects that don't involve pressing the keys. For example, a double tap on the keyboard (not a key press) brings up a movable cursor that can be placed by moving your finger across the keyboard.

I love this feature. It would be great to be included in any hardware keyboard device. I can only assume, however, that this feature would be well outside of the budget that Chen has. I would rather have a phone without it, than no (chen)phone at all.

Kabouik 2018-08-02 15:34
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginaryenemy (Post 1546894)
can only assume, however, that this feature would be well outside of the budget that Chen has. I would rather have a phone without it, than no (chen)phone at all.
I agree with you, but maybe using an optical trackpad as the previous Blackberry phones, the Samsung Omnia or the HP keyboard I linked before would work for a fraction of the cost, and much easier integration (the whole keyboard doesn't have to be reworked for that). What new Blackberry phones have is the fusion between a touchpad and a keyboard, and that must be more complex than a mere (and small) optical trackpad:

http://reho.st/rimblogs.files.wordpr...pg?w=300&h=265

http://reho.st/img.dxcdn.com/product...ku_40583_1.jpg

Dx was selling them for just 10€ (currently out of stock), but I'm sure those or alternative models could still be sourced somewhere. I think I have seen smaller trackpads too.

Also, since it's optical and not based on conductivity, it can be used with gloves (but I don't expect the hwkb to be very comfortable with gloves :D):

http://reho.st/rimblogs.files.wordpr...ram1.jpg?w=800

Could be useful for simple (no typing) use in winter, although it isn't really a serious argument.

Dave999 2018-08-02 15:40
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
So we shall add even more festure requests to the chenPhone.then we have to wait even more. Why not build a qwerty device in its most basic form and see if that works. Even that takes years. Jolla tried lots of stupid things and wasted our money on stupid things instead of building a tablet and ship it to its backers.

If chen manage to build one it much easier to build version 2 with extras. Both when it comes to finance and technical issues.

Kabouik 2018-08-02 16:03
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
You are absolutely right, we just can't ask all the features that come to our mind. My previous posts months ago in this topic show how much I agree. I even believe I stepped against the Blackberry keyboard/touchpad in the past because it seemed just way too complicated to achieve. However I didn't think about optical trackpads, yet they look much simpler, easier to integrate, cheaper, and videos of Blackberry trackpads in use are very convincing. In the end, Chen will decide anyway and he already has is prototype in mind, we are not doing any harm as long as we are not falling into science fiction requests.

To be honest, I am not setting my hopes too high for this, but since there are real use cases and it's less fantasy/gadget than a solar panel or a subwoofer, it doesn't seem so unreasonable to discuss the concept. It would be a competitive advantage against the Gemini and many other phones, a solar charger or can opener extension, would not.

It seems the Ali Baba's cave for mobile optical trackpads is here: http://www.crucialtec.com/eng/busine...s_otp.php#tab3

Quote:
Its performance has been proved by global customers such as Samsung, BlackBerry, HTC etc and shipped over 200millions.
https://reho.st/0x0.st/sWYr.png

https://reho.st/0x0.st/sWYs.png

Dave999 2018-08-02 20:01
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabouik (Post 1546900)
You are absolutely right, we just can't ask all the features that come to our mind. My previous posts months ago in this topic show how much I agree. I even believe I stepped against the Blackberry keyboard/touchpad in the past because it seemed just way too complicated to achieve. However I didn't think about optical trackpads, yet they look much simpler, easier to integrate, cheaper, and videos of Blackberry trackpads in use are very convincing. In the end, Chen will decide anyway and he already has is prototype in mind, we are not doing any harm as long as we are not falling into science fiction requests.

To be honest, I am not setting my hopes too high for this, but since there are real use cases and it's less fantasy/gadget than a solar panel or a subwoofer, it doesn't seem so unreasonable to discuss the concept. It would be a competitive advantage against the Gemini and many other phones, a solar charger or can opener extension, would not.

It seems the Ali Baba's cave for mobile optical trackpads is here: http://www.crucialtec.com/eng/busine...s_otp.php#tab3



https://reho.st/0x0.st/sWYr.png

https://reho.st/0x0.st/sWYs.png
Good. What about solar charger built in?

Kabouik 2018-08-02 20:11
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
It is always a pleasure engaging in a discussion with you, Dave.

endsormeans 2018-08-02 20:40
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
y'know what you get when you ask all the features that come to mind?
that has already happened somewhere else...
answer : an unfinished neo
or a finished Homer mobile
https://media.giphy.com/media/k8bMS52B9ejSw/giphy.gif

Dave999 2018-08-02 20:52
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabouik (Post 1546915)
It is always a pleasure engaging in a discussion with you, Dave.
Likewise! The pleasure is mine!

I wonder when/if Chen will announce the specs next year or this year. Or two years from now. Whats your take on that?

Dave999 2018-08-02 21:01
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by endsormeans (Post 1546917)
y'know what you get when you ask all the features that come to mind?
that has already happened somewhere else...
answer : an unfinished neo
or a finished Homer mobile
https://media.giphy.com/media/k8bMS52B9ejSw/giphy.gif
Possibly. But this project is top secret and the good part is that chen Manged to design and deliver the MotoQwerty so he has a trackRecord that beats the neo 1 vs 0. But OFC, a device is more Complex. We will just have wait and see.

He also have absoluty no obligation and can walk away if he finds out there is trouble on the horizon. The neos both relesed spec and collected money. Big difference. I think that is a key to success.

catbus 2018-08-03 14:44
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Hmmm... So no subwoofer? (Bummer)

I'm still waiting Livermorium. Let us hope that Chen can deliver it to us...

[edit]stupid typos ;)[/edit]

endsormeans 2018-08-03 15:00
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Never heard of a subfoower before..
Are they substandard foower dancers...?
can't be ...why would Chen fit substandard dancers inside the device?
Must be "sub" as in "miniaturized" ..foower dancers...
that makes more sense ...
easier to fit a bunch of foower dancers if you shrink them down...or design them in the lab...
the ethical ramifications either way...
as well as cross border visas in each deice for all those "subfoowers"...
would be a legal and bureaucratic nightmare...
I can't see it happening...

Personally I can do without "subfoowers" ...
never cared for the dancing....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DFIGUUlMiI

endsormeans 2018-08-03 16:15
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
subfoowers may not be feasible with today's tech ...
but it certainly sounds cooler...

Love the username too...
The imagery it evokes...

https://i1.wp.com/makezine.com/wp-co...trip=all&ssl=1

actually...
you don't have an avatar catbus...
the preceding pic would be purrfect..."beep-beep!"

catbus 2018-08-30 15:00
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Now that Purism Librem Phone is almost dead, Livermorium is our only hope

Use the Force, Chen!

Dave999 2018-08-30 15:36
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by catbus (Post 1547772)
Now that Purism Librem Phone is almost dead, Livermorium is our only hope

Use the Force, Chen!
Help Us, Obi-Chen Kenobi!

deutch1976 2018-08-30 16:14
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by catbus (Post 1547772)
Now that Purism Librem Phone is almost dead, Livermorium is our only hope

Use the Force, Chen!
Hello there. Your statment is based in what?

gerbick 2018-08-30 17:11
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by catbus (Post 1547772)
Now that Purism Librem Phone is almost dead, Livermorium is our only hope

Use the Force, Chen!
Something happen?

Fellfrosch 2018-08-30 18:02
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1547778)
Something happen?
Just some delays. But to be honest anything else would have surprised me a lot. So at the moment I would say librem 5 is far away from being dead.

catbus 2018-08-30 18:17
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
https://youtu.be/QFQzv4OsHxc?t=17s

I said "Almost"...

gerbick 2018-08-30 19:16
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by catbus (Post 1547785)
Somewhat sensationalist. Delays surrounding the yet to be delivered chipset was at least communicated as it happened and not publicly denied or silently lacking in any updates like so many other projects.

But I do understand your meaning now more clearly.

claustn 2018-08-31 12:26
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
How would you use the qwerty keyboard with the screen in vertical position? With the numbers pad worked, but with a 5-6" sceen makes no sense in my opinion.

wx9 2018-08-31 13:12
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
That's doable via the portrait keyboard a-la Sony Clie NX70v/NZ90.

Also: Samsung Alias 2 with the weird e-ink keyboard

endsormeans 2018-08-31 14:11
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Well...
Give the purism boys a bit ..
Then ...worry.
People tend to be a bit antsy with delays nowadays....

Ach!
Chen....please do not do a Y.A.S. (yet another smartphone)...
Trailblaze! Instead...
Make a communicator for the cool boys...
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...ukdsy7pjkb1YOg

And a tricorder for the devs...
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...ekLmjoRDdlDNOw

Hell...don't they still have a boumty on creating real ones?
I recall vaguely ...not sure it has been accomplished yet.
I do remember some group out west here in Canada ...had some successes down the tricorder road...

If you can build qwerty keyboard mods...Chen...
A tricorder should be a breeze...
:D

mscion 2018-08-31 14:24
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by catbus (Post 1547785)
Ha ha! Love it! I just got an email update from Purism folks saying everything is hunky dory. Although I saw no mention of chip delays.

Regardless, "What's another year?" Dunno but I think I'll have a beer...

deutch1976 2018-08-31 14:28
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by endsormeans (Post 1547847)
Well...
Give the purism boys a bit ..
Then ...worry.
People tend to be a bit antsy with delays nowadays....

Ach!
Chen....please do not do a Y.A.S. (yet another smartphone)...
Trailblaze! Instead...
Make a communicator for the cool boys...
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...ukdsy7pjkb1YOg

And a tricorder for the devs...
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...ekLmjoRDdlDNOw

Hell...don't they still have a boumty on creating real ones?
I recall vaguely ...not sure it has been accomplished yet.
I do remember some group out west here in Canada ...had some successes down the tricorder road...

If you can build qwerty keyboard mods...Chen...
A tricorder should be a breeze...
:D
Something like this
https://tricorder.xprize.org/ :p

catbus 2018-08-31 17:20
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mscion (Post 1547848)
Ha ha! Love it! I just got an email update from Purism folks saying everything is hunky dory. Although I saw no mention of chip delays.

Regardless, "What's another year?" Dunno but I think I'll have a beer...
Sarcasm is difficult and I can not write it properly enough in English... But some understood it... Thanks.

Dave999 2018-08-31 17:50
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Yes. A device for cool kidz is indeed needed. How many do devices do you think is needed to get a spot in the assembly line?

Do anyone know if chen still working for this phone to reach the market?

cferrism 2018-08-31 22:30
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
All updates here and on Indiegogo would suggest he is but he has been laying low of late with very little in the way of updates on either (which I am currently assuming is because he is awaiting delivery of the final parts to get keyboards mods out the way and close that chapter before hyping the next project)

If I'm honest I'm skeptical that it will get built and hit the market with the type of speed needed to be relevant and make the money required or be at the price I can afford for need to break even (happy to be proven wrong liangchen)

I think it's all a waiting game until one of the big players such as Samsung gets bored of the generic easy money and decides to dabble in something a bit techy retro for publicity and to give the engineers their creative dignity back....but I'm currently 10 years + and a whole lot of whisky down waiting for it to happen and my dirty secret is in that time I've embraced Android and and WhatsApp and Android pay are now a part of life.....d@mn how I miss dabbling with my phone


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