Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

+1 for Sailfish being the first citizen. Handsome linux OS, It will also be good for Jolla to boost Sailfish, having a actual device that is on sale.

Android should be 2nd option for the masses, so Chen and Company deservely get rich and keep boosting handsome devices.

Third OS I think KDE plasma mobile should step in, Ubuntu is not in the race anymore, and I dont see any other distro advertising that they are going mobile. And this project perhaps could be a incentive to them to be faster on development, if their resources permit it.

Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 

@chenliangchen and others, there seem to be some misunderstandings in detail, ...

No, Nemo / Mer / SailfishOS is a GNU/Linux (i.e. an OS based on Linux (i.e. the kernel) and GNU utilities) and some community Distributions (SHR etc.) are, too. And Ubuntu mobile / Touch / for phones was GNU/Linux based as well.

But the development of all (nowadays) purely community-driven, mobile-oriented GNU/Linux-Distributions (e.g. SHR, Maemo5 / Fremantle, MeeGo 1.2 / Harmattan) has stagnated for years, and Nemo / Mer / SailfishOS are the successors of MeeGo / Maemo, as I already pointed out here / see Wikipedia.

No, most manufacturers of (ARM, MIPS etc. -based) SoC do care (but in greatly varying degree) about upstreaming their drivers for the basic functions of their SoCs, e.g. GPIOs, basic Audio, serial buses (RS232, I2C, SPI etc.).
The two crucial points are the video (encode, decode, 3D) drivers and drivers for special peripherals outside of the SoC (camera, touchscreen etc.): These device drivers are often not upstream (i.e. in Linux, the kernel) and sometimes proprietary.
That's why SailfishOS and others (e.g. Ubuntu Touch did) use libhybris together with "Android kernels" to be able to use these drivers, but this is technically not a must (i.e. a mainline kernel could be used, if it supports all hardware of a device and no Android runtime environment is needed).

Basically yes, but Nvidia's Tegras are designed for mobile gaming and tablets, thus their power consumption make them unsuitable for phones.

But you stated, that you already settled on a MSM8953 based design, which is an excellent choice IMO, WRT the Qualcomm Snapdragon 625 (MSM8953) SoC *and* the fact that you are building upon an existing, working design.
Are you really reconsidering this decision?

There already is one, called Freedreno (for Qualcomm's Adreno GPUs).
It has become basically usable recently, in contrast etnaviv (for Vivante's GPUs in various SoCs) and Lima (for ARM's Mali GPUs, but the Lima development has stagnated for a while, already).

But taking care about this and its integration, is the job of the makers of GNU/Linux-Distributions, e.g. Jolla, RedHat, the Debian project, Canonical, SuSE etc.
Do not underestimate the efforts it takes to create and maintain this.

Hence, please focus on creating a device with a well documented and open boot-loader (to make the device "hackable", so one can install whatever OS), while offering at most two choices of end-user-ready OSes preinstalled.

P.S.: While "regular" (i.e. non-mobile focused) GNU/Linux Distributions for ARM processors (Fedora / CentOS, Debian, OpenSUSE, Ubuntu etc.) on handheld devices are "cool" for nerds and hackers, they lack a telephony stack (i.e. no calls!) and applications suitable for touchscreens and for very small screens, making them a really bad fit for an end-user phone.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Just to share another peek from the top. A lot design work is in progress so don't regard it as final version yet. Still very early.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I would love native compatibility with full-fledged GNU Linux distributions, This would seriously be an amazing achievement and this would make the phone a real computer (especially with OTG and an USB-C hub). However, if this turns out to be a blocker because of too many technical difficulties related to hardware/drivers availability, I would still consider Sailfish OS + a good chroot (like EasyDebian on N900) to be a success and to be far superior than whatever can be considered competition to that phone.

Of course if it turns out that natively booting in a full-fledged Linux distribution is an achievable goal, then yay, go for it, but if it turns out being a lost cause and if this goal compromises the whole project itself, remember chroot will not provide the same advantages but would still be an appreciated and useful asset.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

+1 for Sailfish OS. I'm using it for two weeks and already forgot my Iphone 5s. Combined with a great machine and i'm sure it will have success

Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 

From my point of view, this is kind of a "if everything worked, I would prefer to run this-and-that OS" kind of comment. As to why: for me personally, a distro like Arch or Fedora is much more geared towards productivity, which is what I want to use such a device for, after all.

That being said, if it doesn't work well, I'd probably prefer to just use Sailfish.

Yes, I agree that this is the correct (and probably safest) option for Chen at this time.

Yup.

Chen, I think this is the best solution for you: offer Sailfish (for Jolla and GNU/Linux fans) and Android (for the average consumers). And allow the users to unlock the bootloader (for power users), so they can experiment with other OSes if they want.

Thanks for all your efforts!

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Atleast there's support for Adreno 506 GPU from freedreno: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...o-A5xx-Bringup

So if we get the touchscreen, keyboard and wifi working that would gibe me an usable device :) Camera would be bonus.

Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 

Thanks a lot for this.

No I'm not considering to change SoC. What I asked is the reference for future development.

The ultimate goal is to have a GNU/Linux that is open to *any* development, like what Maemo nearly does 10 years ago. Sailfish OS is the most mature choice at the moment but our journey doesn't end here. This is why I want to know all the possibilities that can be achieved in the future.

Telephony support isn't a big issue IMHO. I agree most applications won't run properly on a small screen (Although a lot thinks 5.5 inch is way too big) but I think that's mainly because there is not enough proper handheld Linux machine at the moment. As the device choices grows more applications can be adapted.

(Maybe can also make a stylus for capacitive screen)

Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 

I did not even dare mentioning the stylus in this thread because it's not so useful with Sailfish, but if you have productivity applications running on the device one day (either with a full-featured Linux distribution or with a chroot allowing running desktop applications within Sailfish as EasyDebian did with Maemo), and you manage integrating a stylus within the body of the device on top of that like the N900 stylus, then I'm afraid I'll have to send you love letters every day. Are you. Really sure. That you want this to happen. I mean, are you.

(Not sure about capacitive styluses though, I have yet to find one that really provides the same satisfying experience as on a good resistive screen. I wrote a lengthy post about why I think stylus and stylus-friendly UI/devices are a game changer in the Neo900 thread.)

Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 

This comes another benefit of screen being bigger, we can then have possibility implementing a stylus slot without compromising too much on the structure. (And not make it too thick as N900)

A stylus like Galaxy Note series could be great.

Also remember N900 is 3.5 inch, on a 5.5 inch it may not need to be *that* accurate. :D

But anyway these are the possibilities for the future, will try to keep the topic on the current one.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

For some applications, accuracy is still welcome. Doesn't matter how much I would prefer getting rid of WYSIWYG sometimes, I still have to use LibreOffice quite often. And there is nothing more frustrating than inaccurate character selection in Writer or inaccurate moving of an element in Impress (but the keyboard can help significantly).

If no stylus is implemented within the body of this first device, but we still have access to "desktop" applications in some way, I guess I'll have to carry a capacitive stylus anyway. :D Can be useful, especially on a big screen to reach screen corners or top edge with good accuracy but limited moves.

Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 

We did some analysis on this chipset, compared with other Qualcomm SoCs:

Although this is 6** series, this is more powerful than old 8974 shipset (Snapdragon 800/801) on every aspect.

For daily operation, it's more smooth and stronger than for example 808 to some extent. It uses 4x A53 for normal use.

Power efficiency is awesome! (Being a 14nm processor) Thanks to this chipset my Moto Z Play can get a nearly 3 days average use battery life, and no lag at all.

This chipset is widely used in other brands and proved stable and useful.

Its only weakness (well only "weak" when you compare with flagship SoCs) is on graphic performance and upto 1080p support.

Why we don't want to use SoC like snapdragon 820?

- End user will probably pay 300+ more bucks
- Much more power consumption
- Want to play games? :D Then get a PS4 or Switch:D
- Want 2K screen? I don't see any benefits of 2K resolution over 1080p on a 5.5 inch, unless it's under microscope...

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Damn this really looks awesome.
I really like the N950/Lauta style because the candybar-styled phone is transformable into a keyboard device but still looks like a normal touch-enabled smartphone without looking like a chunky keyboard device.

Are you considering to provide a german QWERTZ keyboard layout (with Ä, Ö, Ü, ß letters), or at least to sell an interchangeable QWERTZ keyboard map?

Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 

I'm sure you know this, but for reference. Running another Linux distro in chroot on Sailfish is easy: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=98882

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Sailfish is the Official Sailfish with AD, Exchange and Predictive Text

I hate Android but I must admit AD makes Sailfish an awesome OS as I have to use WeChat and Whatsapp, And don't have to follow Android's stupid UI design*

I will wait to see how Jolla implements on selling Xperia X's SFOS because as this device is fully open, I want to prevent Android version users (who haven't paid for SFOS) to install unauthorised commercial parts of SFOS.

So a separate image from Jolla would be great for devices pre-load with Android. We will see how it goes.

And I didn't mention this device's UI is supposed to be in landscape most time. Like N900. Android's landscape support is awful. But with Sailfish OS we can adjust from the tablet UI to make home screen landscape friendly. (Or improvement from the landscape patch) IMO SFOS is far superior than Android in terms of landscape UI support. (Shame on Google!)

*On my 5.5 inch Moto Z play, take off the space navigation bar and status bar occupies, the "real content" shows in Android apps is the same as the 5.0 inch Jolla C, when the back key is hidden...

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Damn, I did miss that actually. Thanks a lot. Is it working properly as EasyDebian was or are there still significant caveats?

All excellent news. I agree with you on the landscape capacities of Sailfish, I think I even posted on that matter earlier here when someone said Sailfish is far from providing a good landscape/keyboard-slider experience. Even without the Tablet UI, the landscape mode in Sailfish is not bad at all I think, and it's still an OS that is very portrait/touch-friendly at the same time.

Not sure you can disclose this kind of information at this early stage of the project, but have you been in contact with Jolla regarding the possible ways to settle an arrangement for this device, or is it still too early to investigate before the device is final?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Will start once the keyboard mod is finished, it is the basis of it.

And then with the structural design and refinement that has started, we will be able to have working product to show.

Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 

In regards to the screen size, the manufacturers always give the diagonal size but what is more import to me is the length and width. For example the newest Galaxy Notes have approx 6 inch screen diagonal but are way to narrow for my tastes. Any thoughts here on the screen length and width for the slider?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Really? As someone else said, I think landscape mode in SFOS is a bit embarrassing (seems half finished), and I found it quite frustrating when using a fixed landscape keyboard (TOHKBD).

Want to connect to a new wifi network part-way through typing something? Just rotate your head 90 degrees!

Don't get me wrong, it's usable, but there's really no excuse for not implementing landscape mode throughout all of the settings and home screen. It's not like a ton of back-end code would have to change, just the qml.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

You are referring to SFOS on Jolla 1 / smart phone, which has not all landscape features enabled by default (home screen rotation disabled, some apps don't rotate, etc.).

On the tablet, however, you can see, how well SFOS can work in landscape mode.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I'm not sure, it's been a long time since I last used the TOHKBD (I switched to Jolla C, with some regrets but I needed Android 4.4.4), but maybe my memories are with some patches allowing full rotation of any Sailfish application and screen (did you try that?).

I don't remember the rotate-hassle, except with some Android applications, but again my memory may be a bit selective here. In any case, it didn't look like something that couldn't be improved, seeing the progress that was made in a short time between the pre-tohkbd and the post-tohkbd eras.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I can't answer that. I tried it briefly on my Jolla tablet and it worked, but I didn't test it further.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Yes you're right. That's interesting, but if landscape mode is possible on the phone why have they disabled it?

On the tablet, have they just fixed everything in landscape instead or does it have proper support for both landscape and portrait mode?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Chen, is the keyboard of the device going to be backlit?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Yes definitely

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Only Jolla can answer this question why phones don't support it - I don't know, really...

On the Tablet, you have proper support for both orientations in all Jolla apps, including lock screen, home screen (running apps), events screen and app-launcher.
Tested Jolla apps: Messages, Contacts, Store, Gallery, Settings, Clock, Email, Weather, Calendar, Calc, Media, Documents and Notes :)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Yes. A QWERTZ version will be made.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Speaking of keyboards layouts, will there be a way to type diacritics with a QWERTY keyboard? This is probably only software thing as long as the hardware keyboard offers enough keys to setup two or three dead keys in the layout, so the question is not specifically for Chen, but I wonder if Sailfish allows that.

I'm using a QWERTY keyboard on my computers but have to type éèàêâùç daily in my language. On computers, it's not an issue as I just have to use us_international with dead keys as layout. I'm now used to it. However, my TOHKBD was an AZERTY one and therefore this was not necessary. Given that AZERTY may not happen for Chen's device (it won't for the Moto keyboard mod because of too few requests if I understood correctly), will we be able to use such software layouts and customize dead keys?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

How many different layouts do we have?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Can confirm this. Looks like applications that don't have landscape mode, like some games and the Warehouse client, are not made/packaged by Jolla.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

For what it's worth, no phone running iOS (and I think none running Android either) has landscape mode enabled in the launcher or the system settings. I would guess Apple and Google have both done a considerable amount of testing in this regard and found that below a certain screen/device size, landscape mode in these areas is just not something that makes sense (and I could see why).

Edit: that said, I agree there are some inconsistencies that should be fixed (or: should have been fixed long ago), but Jolla clearly prefer to put their UI team to work on creating unwanted, unnecessary and ugly changes to the cover designs of their applications instead of doing 1-line fixes.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Wait, what ?
Symbian had full portait/landscape working on small screens like the N8's 3.5". This was wonderful. Reading a website in landscape and needed to switch to another application or home to check a widget ? No problem !

Then came "new" OS, like Android where Hangout's home page with list of conversations is fixed to portait (and multitasking view follow it to portait in that case), even if the conversation itself handles both... At least in the 4.X era (don't have newer android to check).
Same for Sailfish on phone, with the example provided before that home and events with its pulley menu are portait even if you are in a landscape application...

Anyway, nothing that some code can't fix, and if there is a keyboard device like chen's to push it, it may not be far away to sailfish, seeing that it apparently is already the case for the tablet.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Chen, we need more pictures, pls.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I have seen requests on the French community about the AZERTY layout, as Kabouik related above.

Seeing as it was not possible to do it for the Moto Mod, is there a way to ensure that it will be available for my French fellow ?

How much orders would you need to make it viable ? Could an additional perk of a few euros for this layout help compensate the fact that there are not much ?
This question would probably make sense also for the scandic layout which didn't made it too.

I personally don't care that much about the layout, but could take an AZERTY one if it helps having more quantity for it.


As we are speaking of buttons, will you provide a camera-shutter button ? shoulder buttons (like on game controllers, but user-mappable to ALT, CTRL, smiley keyboard popup, ...) ?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

chenliangchen, please keep some tl;dr so that one can easily see what's the current status, what has been decided an what not without digging through 20+ pages of posts.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

But as said above in another post, this may be true for "some" applications and maybe the events screen, but is easily fixed with the correct patch(es). I took this screenshot today:

http://reho.st/medium/self/9ed3216fd...6defbbb59a.jpg

Everything is properly rotated. This includes gestures directions themselves, Events screen, Launcher, Homescreen, Device lock screen (including during boot), and all native applications + Android applications that support landscape mode. It took only one patch. I know it's still a patch, but there is some partial support for this without any, and one patch would probably not be considered a dealbreaker for people who are interested in Chen's device in the first place.

I know other French users on another forum who would be interested but have not participated in this thread, but actually I'd be more interested in QWERTY with support for dead keys for an alternative to us_international layout. :D

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

AZERTY layout was rather unfortunate for the Moto Mod, there was only 4 orders on IGG and I can't make it in such small quantity. And I'm not in a position that can afford another SKU with almost no demand other than a few.

But when the situation is better, ie the Keyboard Mod sells well and I will resume the layout for Scandic and AZERTY

I think same will apply to this device, unless there is a clear proof of demand of AZERTY, otherwise it will be made later than QWERTY and QWERTZ. But I DO WANT to make that version, it's matter of time.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

When there is a question, there is an answer. :)

Here is when the slider is closed, and the bottom side of the device. As well as the back of it.

Also part of the back.

We are finalising the Moto Mod development as well as making progress on this one, a lot of work to be done... Next update will be on the second half of this month.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Why don't you test it yourself using TOHKBD? ;)
I have never configured it but If xkb support dead keys then it should works on sailfish.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

It did in n900.