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johnkzin's Avatar
johnkzin is offline johnkzin
2007-12-05 , 17:54
Posts: 1,878 | Thanked: 646 times | Joined on Sep 2007 @ San Jose, CA
#11
Originally Posted by Karel Jansens View Post
IMHO, the best road forward vor the Itablets would be the minimalist track: Take out the GPS, the hardware keyboard, even the camera and just leave us with a platform like the 770: CPU, screen and memory.

Nokia should concentrate on giving the Itablets the best possible peripheral connectivity: Why not throw in two USB ports? Bump up the Bluetooth possibilities and, for heaven's sake, keep two SD expansion ports.

And how about making a case that incorporates a BT or USB keyboard?
I mostly agree, except on the keyboard. I'd even go with no camera at all.

For the keyboard, I like the sliding/tilting screen in their most recently publicized patent application. And I'd prefer to have an actual keyboard on teh device.

But, if there were 2 sister models available at the same time, like the N800 and N810, I would definitely want the keyboardless model to have a "case with built in keyboard". I had thought about how to make such a case for the N800 but didn't get very far.
 
bexley is offline bexley
2007-12-05 , 18:03
Posts: 160 | Thanked: 7 times | Joined on Nov 2007
#12
Yea, ditch the camera. They belong on phones for people who don't care too much about the quality of anything they use, but I think that most people for whom a tablet is suited really don't have much use for a crappy camera. They'd also earn serious users' respect by not spending time to make a capability for something as gimmicky as video chat. Subtract camera and GPS, add re-add two SD slots. If they listened to "serious" users, that should've happened.

I like the idea of GPS, but obviously it was too early to try to add it to a device like this. Or, they just made some basic mistakes and this is the only way for it to progress to be better in the next N***. BT GPS devices are tiny and affordable, so I share everyone's complaint in this regard even though good GPS in a tablet is a huge, huge plus to me.

With the GPS fixed, keyboard and screen likely improved and who-knows-how-many-GB of flash memory in the N810's successor, it should be a winner and make the N810 look like a transition model, which it kind of is. I mean, 810 is just 10 more than 800, right?
Last edited by bexley; 2007-12-05 at 18:07.
 
Karel Jansens's Avatar
Karel Jansens is offline Karel Jansens
2007-12-05 , 18:09
Posts: 3,220 | Thanked: 326 times | Joined on Oct 2005 @ "Almost there!" (Monte Christo, Count of)
#13
Originally Posted by bexley View Post
You guys are making me think of trading my N810 with an N800 owner who wants to upgrade. I'll have it in my hands tomorrow when I visit my sister in NY and will post my reaction.

GPS was one of the main attractions for me, and so was the keyboard, but now I hear many complaints about the GPS. And I've not heard many complaints from N800 users about how they wish they had an easier way to type.

Is this just because you're all used to keeping text input to a minimum, or because you find the touchscreen adequate for writing emails and chatting (when you can't use a BT keyboard)? Maybe a bit of both?

For me, a tablet needs to be almost as easy as paper for note-taking in order for it to earn a spot in my pocket. Quick text input via the touchscreen seems clumsy, probably impossibly so when walking or on a bumpy train, and takes almost all of your visual attention while it would seem that a hardware keyboard would let you type while reading or looking at something else (essentially: note-taking) or maybe even walking. I've never used a touchscreen to type though, so inform me if I'm exagerating its inferiority to a hardware keyboard. I know that the N810's keyboard isn't perfect, but tactile things are generally much easier to adapt to and get better with than writing on a touchscreen, which takes mostly hand-eye coordination. That said, is handwriting-recognition or the software thumb keyboard the preferred way to type for most people with the N800? How fast are people on the software KB?

I'll be getting a BT keyboard too for the N810, but I think that I'd be carrying it with me all the time if I had the N800, whereas I'll only take it on overseas trips with the N810. I could only assume in this case, since I didn't have the option of holding an N810 in my hands before ordering it. Well, I did, but then I'd have to wait at least a month...not possible.
I have a few gadgets with thumbboards, so I feel quite confident in stating that the N800's virtual thumbboard isn't inherently more difficult to use than any of the "real" ones I've tapped upon (Pepper Pad, Psions, SE P910i, Treo). That's not to say that I find any of them specifically easy to use but for quick, limited text input in the absense of decent HWR (see below), they're "good enough".

For quick, lengthy text input, nothing really beats a real keyboard. I have two BT keyboards, the ubiquitous StowAway/iRiver (which is very nice, but has no separate number keys) and an older, non-HID "Smart Keyboard" (which does have separate number keys, but has smaller keys, is harder to be made to work with the Itablets and can realistically only be used on a rigid horizontal surface). I can type away all day long on both of them without any hassle (well, not all day obviously, as BT connections suck gogo-juice and make your Itablet stop).

OTOH, I have on occasion given my opinion about good handwriting recognition, which IMHO only exists on the Newton platform and -- as a less userfriendly subset -- as the Windows-only program CalliGrapher/PenOffice. It is my opinion and experience that for creative, immersed writing nothing really beats writing by hand: The eye-hand coordination is perfect, the involvement of the writer with his text is a lot better and it is AFAIK the only text input method where the writer can see both his hand and the text written. It may not be as quick as a keyboard, but at the end of the day I seem to have more left on the screen written than typed. Also, I seem to have developed a weird sort of keyboard dyslexia where I often mangle letters typed. This disorder does not occur when I write.

But, as always, YMMV and more of that jazz...
 
pdonner is offline pdonner
2007-12-05 , 19:30
Posts: 35 | Thanked: 0 times | Joined on May 2007
#14
Well I won't ding Nokia on the keyboard because they did include the soft kbd from the N800. I think using one or the other is a matter of preference. I never used the handwriting with the N800. I like to have the soft kbd to just browse and write quick emails or IMs. I use the hard keyboard for longer emails but frankly I may not have as much use for it on the N810.

I also have a BT KBD which I carry around with me incase I need to do a lot of typing. So, I guess with me, the jury is out on whether or not the h/w kbd is necessary. I suspect a lot of commuters will find it useful. I am a traveler... ;-)

I hope the GPS problems are software related. I don't recall what GPS they are using but if they are using a Sirt II or III they should have a decent unit on-board that competes with the other companies' units' performance. The mapping software itself leaves a lot to be desired but I have commented about this. I suspect Nokia will fix this soon since they are putting a lot of eggs in the geo-location services related basket and if their product sucks, they just won't have any customers (and revenue). I still think the GPS onboard is a good idea, but for Pete's sake, Nokia fix it! (...probably out to wander on over to bugzilla but haven't had enough time to characterize the problems correctly). In the meantime I am going to continue to use my Garmin Mobile 10 and Maemo Mapper which work fine...on my N800 (testing them on the N810 but seems to work fine also).

Waiting for a 4GB MiniSD so I can actually attempt to do something with the N810 I have. Hopefully the 8GB units will be available for sale soon. 16GB...not holding my breath (besides they will probably be 1/3 - 1/2 the cost of the N810 when they first come out anyhow).
 
haokah is offline haokah
2007-12-05 , 19:44
Posts: 33 | Thanked: 5 times | Joined on Nov 2007
#15
Originally Posted by pdonner View Post
The mapping software itself leaves a lot to be desired but I have commented about this. I suspect Nokia will fix this soon since they are putting a lot of eggs in the geo-location services related basket and if their product sucks, they just won't have any customers (and revenue).

I hope Nokia fixes it, or goes with someone who can.
I emailed wayfinder support about not being able to use degrees, minutes, and seconds with a decimal. ( like those found on www.geocaching.com )

and they replied:

"Unfortunately it is not possible to change the format of how the
coordinates can be typed into the Wayfinder software."

Maemo mapper like the format, though!
 
pdonner is offline pdonner
2007-12-06 , 01:12
Posts: 35 | Thanked: 0 times | Joined on May 2007
#16
Yeah, I am really puzzled about the GPS. You'd have thought that they'd at least have looked at some competitors' equipment and functionality. The software is like a first attempt at implementing GPS functionality. Almost not worth trying IMO. This is a mess, especially, if they intend to make big bucks off of GPS-related services. Most of us tinkerers have some patience but the regular suit that can rely on the GPS is going to toss the N810 into the garbage.

So I have messed around with the internal GPS a bit more. Once I got the ephemeris data downloaded to the GPS (which took quite a while - I must say I thought the unit was broken because it took SOOOO much longer than my Garmins - I have 3 or 4) it now locks in within a minute or so (if outside or at a window, not in the interior of the house - I have LOTS of windows).

The big problem I see (besides the software is that the GPS sensitivity really does suck. Not sure what they are using for hardware so can't say if it is the GPS or the software that talks to the GPS. However, if I put my unit in the window, I lock in. When I move it about 3 feet, I lose most if not all the satellites. If I walk around my house the satellites signals go up and down like yoyos, if they are even there. The signal levels change so rapidly, I'd wager a guess that the problem is in the GPS. If this is the case, they may not be able to fix it. This would really suck.

The other thing about the sensitivity is that if I leave the unit in the window, stationary, the individual satellite signal levels go up and down very quickly (each sat varies differently). No stability. The sats are moving in orbit and when there is weather you'd expect some variation but this is like watching the bar graphs on my stereo while I am playing heavy metal. If I compare it to my Mobile 10, side by side, the 10 does not vary as wildly in such short periods. Granted this could be partly due to the software polling period (variation between the Garmin and the Nokia software) but this does not explain the total loss of signal experienced with the N810 GPS.

With my Garmin Mobile 10, the unit (using Bluetooth) stays synched up and the satellite sensitivity does not vary very much at all, as I move through the house. Granted, I may get a few more satellites if I am outside or next to a window but I do not lose my position info.

I did get Maemo Mapper to work with the internal GPS. Only problem is that the sensitivity problem also exists with Maemo Mapper (so I will stick with the Mobile 10).

Anyone else feeling like a ginea pig?
 
Hedgecore's Avatar
Hedgecore is offline Hedgecore
2007-12-06 , 01:45
Posts: 1,361 | Thanked: 115 times | Joined on Oct 2005 @ Toronto, Ontario, Canada
#17
I'm not a player in the GPS game. What hardware does the N810 have? Are there any other GPS units on the market with the same hardware? How do they perform?
 
TA-t3 is offline TA-t3
2007-12-06 , 12:37
Posts: 3,841 | Thanked: 1,079 times | Joined on Nov 2006
#18
The N810 GPS is supposed to have a SiRF star III GPS chip, which is considered to be among the very best chipsets and widely used. It's very strange to hear about these problems. Maybe the antenna is inferior?
 
HowieG is offline HowieG
2007-12-06 , 13:00
Posts: 32 | Thanked: 6 times | Joined on Nov 2007 @ Derby, UK
#19
Originally Posted by TA-t3 View Post
The N810 GPS is supposed to have a SiRF star III GPS chip, which is considered to be among the very best chipsets and widely used. It's very strange to hear about these problems. Maybe the antenna is inferior?
Yes, the problems may be down to antenna location and performance more than software or chipset. Also, isn't the N810 covered in metal? If so, not the ideal material for encasing a GPS antenna. Most GPS units I know with an internal antenna have a plastic housing. Does reception stength vary with position of the hands around the N810 too? Too bad there isn't a socket for external antenna.
 
jds54 is offline jds54
2007-12-06 , 13:24
Posts: 18 | Thanked: 1 time | Joined on Nov 2007 @ cromwell,ct
#20
I think you are correct about antenna placement being the issue of bad performance.
Nokia should have done a better job of designing a product that was to compete with stand alone GPS units.
I did understand when buying that installed software was for location only. It takes some time to initiate but it eventually does that.
However due to the poor performance of the receiver I would not buy voice and direction software pckage from them.

In my opinion they rushed this product out as a convergence device when it was not ready to be one.

If you need GPS for travel buy stand alone product.
If you want a small internet tablet then N810 works well.
 
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