but we also think America the good has been taking a power nap for some time now.

Originally Posted by nosam

Just want to add my 2 cents to this thread:

I wonder if people realize that Libertarians are ultra-conservative. Some of their ideas sound good, and some of them are good, but they are the extreme right (if you ever study politics you learn this).
According to political theory, Liberals believe we can fix problems and will try to do it, conservatives think we should not make changes to the way things are run because it might make thinks worse - they are resistent to change in policies. Libertarians fall to the right of conservatives.

Now of course these are broad statements and the parties we have do not match exactly to the liberal or conservative modes - life is more complicated - but in general it makes sense. Liberals do want change and to try to improve society and conservatives are less likely to try to address social problems. Libertarians are least likely to try to address social problems by government programs - they will actually increase poverty and levels of hunger among US children by reducing any programs that support poorer families.

The scary part to me is that Libertarians don't value taking care of the people in our society who might need it - for example children or the poor or the disabled. Think about if we did away with social security and medicare and any support for families such as food stamps. Some people are honestly trying to live and work but because of things like cancer or other sudden illnesses or disasters, it is hard for them. A libertarians idea would be "lets do nothing" - ie. let the starve, become homeless, die, have no health insurance, etc. Its ok because government spending is bad. People made homeless by Katrina for example - don't help them - government is bad - I don't want MY tax money to help some disaster victim - its MY money.
Its like a type of social darwinism - anyone who needs help its their fault and the gov. shouldn't help. So its okay if children in the us don't have enough to eat, or have health insurance.

I work with the poor in SF, USA and see that sometimes the programs that will help a family to survive and feed the children are a good thing. I am not educated on Ron Paul's platform, so I am not critcizing him, just wanted to share my undestanding of libertarians and also why I think they are too extreme even though some of there ideas may be good.

I think people get sucked into libertarianism because it sounds good on the surface, but they don't realize it is ultra-conservative and may hurt a lot of people in our society by its plan to reduce all support programs.

Originally Posted by Karel Jansens

What I find dishonest, is your claim that libertarians won't care for the needing. Just because libertarians believe that nobody should be forced into "solidarity", does not mean they don't believe in it. Forcing people is wrong, because it's aggression. Besides, who is going to determine who needs help? The gubberment? Yeah, they've been doing a stellar job at that, creating a whole class of dependants.

But I understand where you're coming from: Your whole "raison d'être" depends on the continuation of that class of dependants, so it's quite understandable that you want everyone -- especially yourself -- to believe that you're fighting the Good Fight <TM>.

Originally Posted by Karel Jansens

What I find dishonest, is your claim that libertarians won't care for the needing.

Originally Posted by bexley

The vast majority of Americans don't know what the hell they believe and their equally clueless oligarchy is just a manifestation of that. You guys entertain the idea of a Ron Paul once in a while like you're entertained by a guest star on a show (US presidential politics is little more than an on-going TV show). Worse than Americans' delusions about a potential for change is their short attention span. A year from now: Ron Who?



The nap is more like an irreversible coma. Never in the world's history has there been a super power that has such a weak grasp of its own position. The US has been compared to a child since its days as the New World; now, it can be described as a rich, egocentric teenager that thinks it understands everything.