[RFC] On the roles of Maemo Council and Maemo e.V. - Page 18 - maemo.org

joerg_rw | # 171 | 2014-10-04, 01:09 | Report

"again not fusing" incorrect, the fusing happened immediately after referendum, by declaration that you already quoted (and that been symmetrical with none of the predecessors being discarded, they simply formed one entity) This declaration been unanimously by whole coucil and clearly stated that both councils are one, ad infinitum. AFTER TWO STEPPED DOWN since otherwise you can't merge two bodies which are not identical! So we couldn't do it *in* refrendum since the vote and making both councils identical was not done at that point. However it GOT DONE. And that's what I promised to electorate. PERIOD

again, what's your point? what's the difference anyway? Sorry dude, you start to bore me (oops, that statement is incorrect, scrap "start to"). There's ONE council and it obeys at least two sets of *identical* rules. Call it whatever you like, it stays The Council. And it has three "jobs". When you change the rules for one of the three jobs in an incompatible conflicting way, then one physical entity will serve two logically unrelated duties, and the "job" that changed the rules has basically created its own local shwouncyl with this, regardless of the other two rulesets staying coherent and unchanged, and the same body would have to obey two different sets of rulesets.
A hires you to walk to the attic at 12:00:00 and check visibility distance by looking out the window. B does exactly same. Even C hires you to do exactly that. When you walk to the attic at 12:00:00 and look, are you A's employee, B's or C's? Now B says you have to do same at 15:00:00 again. Still no problem. But when C changes rules and says at 12:00:00 you have to check water height of the brook in front of your house, you can't do all three jobs anymore.

Oh, and I can smell your hate oozing out of every of your 837 body orifices, green and slimy. the disrespect you utter with every single "a" you type is so obvious I don't need to tell anybody about... (just kidding. We call this "persiflage")

btw: a "this referendum was meant to be about something different, but somehow it turned into something completely wong" doesn't mean the result of the referendum is any invalid, after all the electorate elected about the exact text of the referendum, not about what somebody meant it should have been. sorry for MT that I disagreed on running a referendum that had a "question" text which had not been agreed upon unanimously. I leave it up to you to learn why. Hint: got to do with not changing rules in a way that puts damage to those who relied on the old rules. We had a lawyer voicing up here, he might help you out.

Last edited by joerg_rw; 2014-10-04 at 04:21.

foobar | # 172 | 2014-10-04, 10:28 | Report

All this "we have 1 council with 2 rule sets and 3 jobs" has made it even more clear to me that I strongly favor a solution that keeps the eV lean regarding the entites within it.

The eV is indeed not 'the enemy'.

IMHO, the council (as a legal entity) should be (legally, of course...) removed from the eV. The board should of course delegate daily business of running servers, moderation, etc. to working groups within the community, JUST AS IT IS NOW. The board doesn't have to do all the jobs by itself. There could, of course, be a 'steering group' that makes sure all the jobs are adequately staffed, etc. Whether that group is called 'Council' or 'The Community Guys' or whatever...

Last edited by foobar; 2014-10-04 at 10:40. Reason: added 'legally, of course...'

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shawnjefferson | # 173 | 2014-10-04, 17:17 | Report

Originally Posted by pichlo View Post

I was once a member of a club with about 30 members. That's at least on the same order of magnitude as those ~100 active voters. We had a Prersident, a VP for membership, a VP for this, a VP for that, a Treasurer, two Sergeants in arms... in all, about 10 roles. Due to the small size of the club some people held multiple roles, so there was a Board of about 6 officials.

What we did not have was a council. The Board had the executive power (ordering materials, handling finances, organizing events...) and was responsible directly to the GA (the remaining 24 club members).

In my mind this club works exactly the same way (maybe not right now, but that should be the ultimate goal). The President represents the club officially. Negotiates with Nokia and Jolla, speaks with lawyers etc. The Treasurer handles the bank account. The VP for Membership handles the user accounts, bans, refraction points, permissions etc. Sergeants in Arms are the techstaff. They look after the hardware, maintain the website, garage and repositories. Simples.

In our club, all these roles were rotating on an annual basis. I am assuming the same here, though I am ready to stand corrected. Are the BoD permanent? If they are, what happens if one of them gets run over by a bus?

You can also have the MCev board delegate these tasks to anyone else (assuming that it is not a task that needs to be done by a director by law). It could very well work this way:

1. GA elects MCev Board.
2. MCev board delegates specific tasks (the things that Joerg mentions mainly) to volunteers from the larger maemo community (probably don't even need to be official members of the GA.)

In this case, there is only one election: The MCeV board. I have no idea why this wouldn't work for our small community. In my mind, it creates an organization that are all pulling in the same direction. If the MCev BoD wants to do some of the tasks, then great! Less managing of different roles. If they don't, then #2-delegate.

If you really like the idea of a "council", it can be done by #2, without the election. That way people can come and go all they like on "council", and the community isn't forced into an election to just get these day to day tasks completed.

Best of both worlds. You get a legal entity, responsibility to the community, and you still have the ability for other people to get involved and help the community in the ways they like.

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joerg_rw | # 174 | 2014-10-05, 05:48 | Report

Originally Posted by foobar View Post

IMHO, the council (as a legal entity) should be (legally, of course...) removed from the eV.

There IS NO LEGAL entity "council"
O M F G!

and "assign duties to groups" - OMG again! And who does that assignment? YOU? And then you sit back and watch the slaves work? Nobody assigns duties to groups, there are volunteers that offer to help, and council coordinates and shares info. THAT'S ALL, and that's been like this since four years. Now you think you can do it better? FINE! Come up with a better concept than what you just offered! You think board can do this better? WHY? Because nobody elected the board?

Last edited by joerg_rw; 2014-10-05 at 05:55.

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joerg_rw | # 175 | 2014-10-05, 06:04 | Report

Know what? you asked for a Emperor Chemist for lifetime, I'm not the one to stop that. I actually hope you will manage to keep him in duty for the next 20 years. While I sit back, with sardonic grin, and watch that mess.
II step down from council, and I quit membership in that great new MCeV which I idiotically helped to establish. Have fun kids. Be silent and don't bother me, please

foobar | # 176 | 2014-10-05, 07:11 | Report

Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post

There IS NO LEGAL entity "council"
O M F G!

Of course there is. Council is mentioned in and established by the bylaws ("§6 Organe des Vereins, §8 Vorstandsrat") which makes it a legal entity within the eV.

Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post

and "assign duties to groups" - OMG again! And who does that assignment? YOU? And then you sit back and watch the slaves work? Nobody assigns duties to groups, there are volunteers that offer to help, and council coordinates and shares info. THAT'S ALL, and that's been like this since four years. Now you think you can do it better? FINE! Come up with a better concept than what you just offered! You think board can do this better? WHY? Because nobody elected the board?

Excuse me? Can you please be serious for just one minute? Whether you call it 'assign' or 'call for volunteers [and then assign]' or 'delegate' (as I did) doesn't really matter at this point, does it?

The board of course needs to be elected regularly. There is no such thing as 'for life'.

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Wikiwide | # 177 | 2014-10-05, 12:48 | Report

Quick reply...

As shawnjefferson helpfully explained, Board would delegate tasks to volunteers. Not that different from what is happening now?..
Bylaws... It will be very helpful when all the e.V. documents are on Wiki in English. Maybe, I am asking for too much, but feeding the text to Google translate each time, and digging into the broken-English to understand the meaning of this or that, it tiresome.
Especially, it is confusing when it was previously said that e.V. can easily function without a council, and 'lets keep e.V. lean, aka no council' and 'there are not going to be that many members in GA of e.V., given that there are not that many people actively participating in TMO politics (83 voters in the last election)'.

I guess it's time to step up Star Wars propaganda (from a simple 'skywalker' tag), to distract readers from arguing over 'lost in translation' nuances...
Jedi Code : There is no emotion, there is peace.There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.There is no passion, there is serenity.There is no death, there is the Force.
Sith Code : Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Mine : There are emotions and passion in present, and there is goal of peace and serenity in the future. The knowledge is a seashore, with shells and dead animals stranded on it; the depths of ocean of ignorance hide the monsters yet unseen. The death is non-existence, as incognizable as emotionless peace and passionless serenity. Passion gives more than strength and power, and neither of the three guarantees victory. The only chains imposed on you are those which you impose yourself, and they can never be broken, only changed to accommodate your own changes. The Force is a concept unknown, which should be questioned at every moment, like nature is questioned by a scientist, like society and morals are questioned by a philosopher, instead of depending on it.
The words about seashore and ocean seem to be a paraphrase of the half-forgotten quote of Isaac Newton: "I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

Best wishes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Per aspera ad astra...

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Win7Mac | # 178 | 2014-10-05, 16:45 | Report

Originally Posted by Wikiwide View Post

It will be very helpful when all the e.V. documents are on Wiki in English.

Here you go: http://wiki.maemo.org/MaemoCommunity_eV

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Wikiwide | # 179 | 2014-10-06, 22:54 | Report

Originally Posted by Win7Mac View Post

Here you go: http://wiki.maemo.org/MaemoCommunity_eV

Quick reply...
Alright... Here is goes:
Passive/all members elect Council;
Active/GA members elect Board;
Board executes Council's and GA's rulings.
Iiinteresting...
Best wishes. Thank you!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Per aspera ad astra...

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chainsawbike | # 180 | 2014-10-07, 05:27 | Report

in the by-laws, in section 7:
(5) The Board of Directors executes the Council's and General Assembly's rulings.

there is always data lost in translation, so could someone please clarify whether that statement is binding?

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