Both seems to be not exactly true, which been points I started to strongly question in that e.V. bylaws. It's the core problem that the e.V. can do whatever GA decides and is NOT obliged to listen to The Maemo Community (which win7mac happily bashes *me* to have a wrong definition when I generalize "Community==Electorate", but one line later *he* redefines community as being a handful elitist members of an arbitrary e.V. I feel reminded on some territorial annexation we recently seen, and the plot it been done by and justification given for it)
Quick reply...
The discussion here is more interesting-heated than fireworks I heard exploding this New Year's Eve. Apologies for talkativeness - it may be my sleepiness talking :-) [I seem to have lost ability to differentiate between different kinds of chocolate candies - they are all nut-filling-surrounded-by-chocolate. White-milk or brown-cocoa, does not matter.]
To quote the bylaws: "The Board of Directors executes the Council's and General Assembly's rulings." So, if the Board decides to work without the Council, "Council" has to be replaced with "Passive Members" - that would be a complicated paperwork, indeed, to go through whole Bylaws, if somebody wished to do without Council.
Currently, it's quite fine and nice, interconnected, as it is... Is it defined what to do in case of conflict between rulings of GA and rulings of Council?..
At this moment, there are no fees. And amount of fees is something determined by GA. So, join GA, and make sure GA isn't going to enact fees - problem solved. And, it's not like people would vote to create fees upon themselves, anyway - they would rather donate voluntarily, instead.
To see an annexation, one would need to see a map first. And I do not see the map. I do not even notice Moderators posting on TMO, anymore. Much less, Admins - they are here, or the server wouldn't be running, but Council and Board get much more publicity-visibility.
Am I raising too much noise and racket? Maybe. I just fear that one day maemo.org will be a ghost town. Some rooms are becoming empty, or inhabited by ghosts and robots. Or is it my hyperactivity speaking?
We almost beat the previous election in terms of number of candidates, but that's almost - 11 became 10 [no pressure, just sadness]. I wonder, what's the graph of number of candidates over years of elections? And of voters? Will we see higher voter turnout this election? We can only hope.
Best wishes. Thank you. Happy New Year.
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Per aspera ad astra...
why would anybody bother to vote for a council that can get overridden by a club of two (1?) dozen peeps in GA, who decide on their own who may become member of their club, if they need to pay for such membership or not and how much, and generally has already hijacked maemo completely? Hoping that this club would allow stable long term democracy just because of laziness, own interest (not to pay fees themselves), or just goodwill, is ... naive.
Maybe tomorrow I should drum up 50 "friends" in my neighborhood who all will apply for e.V. membership, then immediately start an extraordinary GA and change all that bylaws and whatnot stuff in a way I think is appropriate (for me, or for whatever are my aims tomorrow). First thing to decide: rent a Datscha for a fine party paid by the donation funds that The Maemo Community once transferred to HiFo for *maemo* purposes, and they thought they were the ones to decide what those purposes are.
How would you stop me? Except by doing same thing before I could... Or maybe that already happened and we're just waiting to see it? I just wonder about legal implications for HiFo when giving away the Maemo Community assets to undefined random location where they are free for basically everybody to pick them up. I'm just happy I bailed out of that mess of responsibility and failure to see the risks.
So... is there a three sentence answer to the Maemo Community, GA and eV question in regards to separation?
Something... you know; without personal attacks, analogies, legalese and/or conversation that harkens back to a discussion that a lot of people might not be?
The discussion around that seems to be the most contested. Not as to who they are, but the separation and powers therein.
why would anybody bother to vote for a council that can get overridden by a club of two (1?) dozen peeps in GA, who decide on their own who may become member of their club, if they need to pay for such membership or not and how much, and generally has already hijacked maemo completely? Hoping that this club would allow stable long term democracy just because of laziness, own interest (not to pay fees themselves), or just goodwill, is ... naive.
Maybe tomorrow I should drum up 50 "friends" in my neighborhood who all will apply for e.V. membership, then immediately start an extraordinary GA and change all that bylaws and whatnot stuff in a way I think is appropriate (for me, or for whatever are my aims tomorrow). First thing to decide: rent a Datscha for a fine party paid by the donation funds that The Maemo Community once transferred to HiFo for *maemo* purposes, and they thought they were the ones to decide what those purposes are.
How would you stop me? Except by doing same thing before I could... Or maybe that already happened and we're just waiting to see it? I just wonder about legal implications for HiFo when giving away the Maemo Community assets to undefined random location where they are free for basically everybody to pick them up. I'm just happy I bailed out of that mess of responsibility and failure to see the risks.
I do not know what happens when decisions of GA and Council are in conflict; that's why I wouldn't say that will of Council can be overridden by GA, or vice versa.
Board cannot reject an application for GA membership, as long as its filled in properly.
GA decides whether members of GA pay fees or not, yes. That's probably a left-over from golf-club-laws, where some kind of steady income is needed to maintain the golf-field, or whatever.
Democracy will be here, as soon as eV will be large enough. People, by default, have goodwill (altruism) and self-interest (egoism). I would even go as far as say that for a smart person, altruism and egoism are equal (lead to the same decisions and outcomes), but that's my personal opinion.
About 50 "friends"... Read the Bylaws:
The inclusion as an active member is executed by the Board upon written or electronic request and requires three months of passive membership. Active members retain all rights and obligations of a passive membership.
Any and all of the *.maemo.org members are welcome to join GA. However, "immediately" is a word contradicting the paper bureaucracy, since parsing the application forms will requite a bit of time... Especially during holidays. And for small Board.
And I am fairly sure that if GA attempts to hold an extraordinary meeting with a "not-proper" purpose, then the time (four weeks?), between public declaration of agenda and the meeting itself, will be quite enough for "proper" members of *.maemo.org to both send overwhelming number of applications to Board (to make sure GA is not hijacked by "not-proper-mindset") and to contact the Council - see my question: what happens in case of a slightest conflict between Council and GA, since Board executes both Council's and GA's rulings.
Best wishes. This ironing out of Bylaws' wrinkles is really helpful, since many people wouldn't even try to read them, otherwise? Looking at myself :-)
So... is there a three sentence answer to the Maemo Community, GA and eV question in regards to separation?
Something... you know; without personal attacks, analogies, legalese and/or conversation that harkens back to a discussion that a lot of people might not be?
The discussion around that seems to be the most contested. Not as to who they are, but the separation and powers therein.
What is exactly the question?
Council is elected by *.maemo.org members who are also known as passive members.
*.maemo.org members are welcome to apply for eV membership, and Board cannot refuse them as long as the form was filled in properly (three months of *.maemo.org membership, and some other restrictions may apply, read the Bylaws).
Board is elected by eV members who are also known as active members.
Board executes Council's and GA's rulings.
Board represents eV legally and is elected once each year.
Board has a chairman, a secretary and a treasurer?
Council is elected once every 6 months.
Council is responsible for meetings, elections and such?
For example: Council may rule to hold a coding competition, Board would pay whatever the expenses are?
Council may raise awareness about eV membership, Board would do the paperwork of parsing application forms received from applicants?
Best wishes. Thank you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Per aspera ad astra...
A peaceful, yet naive approach to clear the air betwixt the prior back and forth that... really made no sense. I lost count of what was being said, so I'm asking for the separations and then minimizing the confusion therein. Guess I wasn't clear...
Originally Posted by
Council is elected by *.maemo.org members who are also known as passive members.
*.maemo.org members are welcome to apply for eV membership, and Board cannot refuse them as long as the form was filled in properly (three months of *.maemo.org membership, and some other restrictions may apply, read the Bylaws).
Board is elected by eV members who are also known as active members.
Board executes Council's and GA's rulings.
Board represents eV legally and is elected once each year.
Board has a chairman, a secretary and a treasurer?
Council is elected once every 6 months.
Council is responsible for meetings, elections and such?
For example: Council may rule to hold a coding competition, Board would pay whatever the expenses are?
Council may raise awareness about eV membership, Board would do the paperwork of parsing application forms received from applicants?
Best wishes. Thank you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Per aspera ad astra...
Awesome. So using this as an example, why does confusion still run rampant?
A peaceful, yet naive approach to clear the air betwixt the prior back and forth that... really made no sense. I lost count of what was being said, so I'm asking for the separations and then minimizing the confusion therein. Guess I wasn't clear...
Awesome. So using this as an example, why does confusion still run rampant?
Because eV-active-members aka General-Assembly sound like "elite" of *.maemo.org members, 'selected' by chaotic self-nomination?
Because GA has power over Board, and nobody has power over GA?
Because there is no clearly defined mutual-control between Board and Council, when re-election of one would automatically mean re-election of the other, at the same time?
By the way, why "articles of association" can be changed by either Board or GA? Shouldn't it be Council or GA, then, since Board is to execute rulings of GA and Council?
It's just plenty of confusion. While Board and Council are familiar concepts, GA is not.
One point that was raised, is that anyone can became a passive member by just registering an Maemo.org account and there is no identity check whatsoever. You can call yourself whatever you want to, and you do not even need to be a human to do it
Becaming an active member means officially applying for the membership, and providing proof of identitity.
It was argued that this may be a hurdle for somebody who wishes to remain anonymous, for one reason or another.
I myself do not feel this is a serious argument, as same applies for membership of any officially registered voluntary organization or club. There might be however some that cannot stomach this
At this moment, there are no fees. And amount of fees is something determined by GA. So, join GA, and make sure GA isn't going to enact fees - problem solved. And, it's not like people would vote to create fees upon themselves, anyway - they would rather donate voluntarily, instead.
Fees could be introduce for regular members only, not for Community.
I wouldn't consider a fee of a few bucks per year a problem. This way we could at least assure the small amount needed for administration will be there and that people who became inactive will resign membership. But that's totally up to GA members.
What's needed is a clarification which rulings can be made by Council and which by General Assembly.
For now, in MC eV regulations, the only responsibility particularly mentioned for Council is to hold all elections and referenda.
Furthermore, Council responsibility could be explicitly defined to
- organize Coding competitions*
- advise Board in taking adequate action to community requests (in addition to GA requests)*
- trigger simultanous Board and Council reelections (red button)*
- adjustment of General Regulations (instead of GA; Council election rules being part of it should probably remain "protected" by community referendum)
* Could be done by simple change of General Regulations, Bylaws may remain untouched.
Responsibilities that should remain dedicated to GA:
- election of Board
- adjustment of Bylaws (which is a requirement; GA instated them and they need to keep authority over them)
And for completeness, responsibilities that should remain dedicated to Board:
- having full authority in any business activity
- hiring maemo.org staff
- adjustment of Board Regulations
