MartinK | # 381 | 2015-09-16, 00:18 | Report

I know this was not really center on all of us but still...

Because we have been there since at least the N900 times (since 2010 for me at) and we do think this (an almost full powered classical Linux distro running on a mobile device) is the way to go ?

Not the various more or less embedded hacked together toy operating systems...

That's why we are there, pointing to various issues, problems and bugs - so that things can be fixed and improved! Because we do care and want Sailfish OS/Nemo/Mer to be successful!

So is sometimes hard to see the same mistakes that Nokia did to be redone by Jolla and most importantly not willing to let people help them - it's because we care...

bluefoot | # 382 | 2015-09-16, 00:55 | Report

= i have absolutely zero counter argument (or even point to elucidate in the first place) so I'm just going to cry and troll.

but to answer your question, most people with any interest came from the N900 era, and a few were 'newbies' who only boarded after the N9. people have been continually willing to let Jolla and Sailfish get away with murder because of rose tinted spectacles, myself included. were it not for the glory days (well - halcyon days), very few would have even given jolla the time of day, let alone stuck around until now. the reason there was such a huge exodus of developers and community members in the weeks and months after the jolla phone's launch was because a lot of people realised just how bad the situation was and how unlikely jolla were to improve things remotely soon. to some extent i realised that too, but I honestly thought it could be made serviceable, or that the remaining community members could help fix it. the latter's been impossible for the reasons discussed this evening, and the former seems as far off now as it did ~22 months ago in terms of having a competitive or commercially viable product.

unless there's immediate and significant improvement it's just barmy to stick around. if you can't find something that suits you somewhere within the now vast and varied Android ecosystem, you probably aren't looking very hard. UP is developing very quickly and seems like they'll be the only ones to challenge MS on the desktop integration front for the forseeable future. things don't have to be as much of a struggle as they are with Sailfish for users or developers in alternate ecosystems.

rationally, like many here, i should have left long ago ... but there's the self defeating time invested / inertia and the naive hope for a better tomorrow. I've been hoping that Sailfish would improve to a point where I could make a choice to stay or go, but unless something fundamental has changed since 1.1.9 and tablet have been signed off, it won't be a choice, it'll be a forced exit.

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Last edited by bluefoot; 2015-09-16 at 01:03.

ZogG | # 383 | 2015-09-16, 04:44 | Report

Mer is just a core. It's like you would say any device using *nix or linux as kernel are enough opensourced (iOS and PS3/4 are based on opensource freebsd and a lot of opensource tools, but it doesn't help you, does it?)
There is a huge difference between functional OS that you can set on your phone and use (btw do you have and hw that is 100% supported by mer/nemo except jolla as they do not provide the way to flash) and set of tools to build your own (see it as LFS).

In addition they actually said they would open source before phone launch and few times later, they said it again before tablet campaign and their PR uses "opensource" word too much and not it a proper way. Marc in his video told that Sailfish 2.0 is open on campaign(and where Marc now :P)

ZogG | # 384 | 2015-09-16, 05:01 | Report

Actually you are right on your point of view, but you are wrong in general.
As you see there is even decrease of devs interested and contributing to Nemo as Jolla not only failed to make it easier, they made it even harder with "in-door" development (last time i checked).
AFAIK even @w00t (ex sailor) posted about lack of organization and documentation and co-operation on that matter somewhere on forum (@w00t correct me if I'm wrong).
And you can say that jolla (that actually controlling Nemo and Mer) do not have to do anything for me or you on that matter, you should understand that developers don't own anything to Jolla as well and if there is choice between A project and B, where A is hard to jump in and B has proper bugzilla(from start) and proper documentation and community friendly, why would he bother to work on A, if there a lot of B-like projects.

ZogG | # 385 | 2015-09-16, 05:05 | Report

You see it as black and white mate. And that's the problem.
Btw it is not Jolla forum, they refused to cooperate with TMO and thus why are you spending time wasting on arguments on this forum instead of productive use of your time on TJC, oh wait... because TJC is FAQ engine and now is a mess as they used wrong platform for communication/bug report/everything else that is not suitable to use on FAQ engine ;P

ste-phan | # 386 | 2015-09-16, 05:29 | Report

As a consumer with limited funds rather than investor I have very few options to Support Jolla with Sailfish.

2 stickers with Jolla logo: deployed
All hardware (tablet / phone) purchased: done
Providing feedback on TJC: ongoing
Try to hype friends into Sailfish: done and failed
Donate to developers of native applications: done.

Become developer: no time and interest and I am of the same opinion as sensible people stated above, what's the use if Saiflish keeps the interface part for telepathy or how is it called closed source? Can't implement SIP in a worthy way, something I would start with on a phone.

Again, I would like to purchase the software Sailfish in a form originally intended by the Jolla crew in their idealistic free from Nokia Elop days.
Here I have purchased an alternative ROM for my Kindle Fire. Purchase, install , play. Tired of new OS? Run uninstaller to invert operation and get back to original OS.
http://www.perfectlyandroid.com/

An "old" phone loaded with an officially supported 100 Euro Sailfish license would make very original Xmas presents compared to latest Galaxy S.


Another way I would support Jolla is through their indiegogo campaigns. If they would search for support to implement the top 10 jolla together most voted or requested items.

dcaliste | # 387 | 2015-09-16, 07:28 | Report

To add some words to this Open Source discussion. I'm contributing to Sailfish-office and more recently to Nemomobile for the simple reason, that they are components that I use every day. The Jolla phone is my only phone. I cannot contribute to something that would stay as a toy on a board, I don't have enough time for that, so everything that is fully Open Source but lacks the capability of being my main phone in mundane life is a no go for me, sadly

About the direction chosen by Jolla, I don't simply understand why they are not releasing as Open Source all the small applications of SFOS (calculator, calendar, mail…). That they keep Silica closed source, I can understand because they don't want to see a fork being done by a bigger player and being pushed out later. But for the small apps, they are linked (because of Silica) hard to SFOS and cannot be forked easily to work somewhere else. So they don't risk anything at all ! The argument of displaying bad code seems unvalid to me since the office application code is pretty well written IMHO. The argument of not being on control anymore is neither valid, since they can accept or reject any pull request they would receive. The only reasonable explanation that I imagine is a lack of Open Source advantages understanding from the management…

Stskeeps | # 388 | 2015-09-16, 07:31 | Report

Stay tuned.

JulmaHerra | # 389 | 2015-09-16, 08:06 | Report

It seems that quite many here take it all black and white from their own perspective. For some

I remember that discussion and reasons why TJC was formed in the first place. They did it because for some community minded people they simply were not welcome here. If my memory doesn't betray me, you were one of the most vocal opponents. However, they didn't want to just create another TMC to cannibalize the communities here. Somehow even that has been turned into negative thing here....

Being like that, I don't find it that surprising if not many developers are willing to spend much time here. After all, it requires certain twist in character to wish being ripped apart publicly with no intention for anyone to actually see anything but heir own agenda.

javispedro | # 390 | 2015-09-16, 09:23 | Report

Please note that IMHO, in the absence of valid reasons for going closed source, the default should be free software. In this day and age, I'm just no longer entertaining the opposite point of view.

I could see valid reasons to close down say the Twitter client, or maybe Chinese handwriting recognition which seems to be a humongous effort without workable free software alternatives.

But the n^th iteration of the mail client being closed source? It has reached the point where I think they're shooting themselves on the foot.

There's this dooming sensation that Ubuntu will manage to ship a way more free software phone sooner than Jolla, if they haven't already; and the ironic part of it is that it will probably ship more components made directly or indirectly by Jolla employees than Canonical employees.

My message just points out that after that point it will be harder for me to justify Sailfish. But that is an opinion and I'm sure that others find e.g. cover actions more important

Mer, Replicant, etc. do not currently ship devices with support and that's something I'm willing to pay for. Note this would be closer to the role I wish Jolla had: selling working Mer devices and supporting them.