Alternative history: What if Jolla never existed? - Page 23 - maemo.org

Copernicus | # 221 | 2015-11-24, 18:28 | Report

Originally Posted by itdoesntmatt View Post

you simply want continuum from microsoft but in an open source form?

Here's my thing: way, way long ago, I had a PC running DOS / Windows 3.1. Yeah, that long ago. But I was also using Unix workstations at my university. Eventually, I did what many people were doing, and installed Linux on my PC. This allowed me to use the same environment and the same utilities as on my work machines. Along comes Windows 95, and everyone in the Windows world has to migrate their world to the new OS; but, I was able to keep rolling along with Linux. A few years later, boom, the Windows 9x line is being scrapped, everybody has to switch to Windows NT/2000/etc. (which finally brings some of the nice features that other OSs, like, say, Linux, have had all along), and everyone has to switch again. Or, like me, just keep using Linux.

At one point, I finally acquired an Apple Mac Mini to see what it was like (especially with the new OS X, based on BSD Unix!). It was nice, but eventually Apple dropped support for the PowerPC. At which point, I (of course) installed Linux, and just kept rolling on.

Then, I picked up an N900, because, you know, Linux.

I'm mostly living in a world where I don't need to keep switching between operating systems, because the OS I like keeps migrating onto my devices for me. I already have the "Internet of Things" going on here -- I'm able to communicate fairly easily to pretty much anything with a CPU in my house, because everything with a CPU is running Linux (or something like it) right now.

This is, I think, an aspect that folks are missing today; as a software engineer, you may constantly be looking for the most disruptive technology. Consumers, though, are more likely looking for the least disruptive technology. That's why Windows has hung on for so long; that's why Apple is so conservative in their UI choices; that's why other mobile manufacturers stick with Android to the exclusion of all other options. If you can offer the consumer something that does what they need, but doesn't disrupt their existing workflow significantly, you'll have a winner.

The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to Copernicus For This Useful Post:
Bundyo, eekkelund, Feathers McGraw, juiceme, minimos, mrsellout, nodevel, pichlo, salyavin, smoku, wicket

ZogG | # 222 | 2015-11-24, 18:29 | Report

Originally Posted by Stskeeps View Post

The world has also massively changed since 2011 in many regards; which is why I'm trying to see things from today's perspective.

I have a question and i would like to get straight answer. You might not tell all details or not answer at all, but if you do, please be straight.

Why only today, didn't you see it coming and have you done anything to change the situation within Jolla at last few months(though in my perspective this situation was there way longer)?

The Following User Says Thank You to ZogG For This Useful Post:
pichlo

ZogG | # 223 | 2015-11-24, 18:32 | Report

Originally Posted by MartinK View Post

I think this would certainly be an interesting project - sounds a but like an open source boot to Qt.

A big advantage would be certainly the relatively small amount of work needed to have something running and being able to basically run Qt apps on Android as first class citizens and without the Android bloat & spying crap. That sounds kinda like Firefox OS done right (Firefox OS does not use libhybris but basically gutted down Android with Firefox running fullscreen).

I can also imagine porting my apps to this platform as long as Python 3 is available as they & their deps already run on Android (after a substantial amount of work).

On the other hand I can also see some potential disadvantages and open questions:

If you want to do something Google is not interested in doing/supporting (or does not want you to do) you will be on your own and might need to write stuff from scratch that is easily possible on normal Linux distros.
Also any changes in the underlying Android base system might require to carry the resulting patches forever as Google would not be likely to merge them & to make them work with any changes Google does in the future.
Loosing control of your base system - Google dictates the direction of the platform and the project could not reasonably expect to change it, even if it is heading in a detrimental way. Also note that while this is highly unlikely, Android (minus kernel) is under BSD - Google could pull another Android 3 if it wanted (not releasing source or giving access only to partners).
Every non-android library you would want to use would need to be rebuild against Bionic - this is sometimes easy, but sometimes not trivial thing due to Bionic being a broken mess. So by default (until someone ports the needed libs) this means loosing any remaining compatibility with non-Qt based software.
If someone wanted to make this closer to "normal Linux" he would basically need to "unbreak" the system vs modifying normal Linux to be suitable for mobile devices. Still this could be eventually possible if the project is popular (eq. slowly replacing Android stuff and converging back to "normal" Linux).
What about multitasking and task switching/windowing ?
How would software distribution be handled ? - The existing Android packaging mechanisms probably could not be used.
Not normal but embedded Linux - which is a difference many seem to underestimate. (example: try to unpack a tar archive on a stock Android device, not to mention using ssh - good luck ).

Ha, one of the good guys from TMO wrote N9 like launcher in QML on top of Android

The Following User Says Thank You to ZogG For This Useful Post:
tortoisedoc

Stskeeps | # 224 | 2015-11-24, 18:44 | Report

Originally Posted by ZogG View Post

I have a question and i would like to get straight answer. You might not tell all details or not answer at all, but if you do, please be straight.

Why only today, didn't you see it coming and have you done anything to change the situation within Jolla at last few months(though in my perspective this situation was there way longer)?

Let's see if I understand the question - you're wondering why I haven't done anything to explore and fix Jolla with what I'm talking about here.

Who says I didn't?

It's important to take a distinction between Jolla and SailfishOS "companies" and two different paths.

SailfishOS has a certain path forward; where it matters that it's a full GNU/Linux system, to be properly technologically independent of Android. With BRICS countries, vendors unhappy about Google hitting them with MADA agreements, people wanting a GNU/Linux mobile system etc. That has it's own set of volume. There's no real innovation in a mobile phone system today - it's all catch-up, the market is screwed up. It needs disruption - the business model in mobile phone market is essentially to steal your attention, addict you, direct the money of your wallet and let you consume content. I don't believe in that business model.

Jolla has to me represented being the brand of people powered, privacy and personalizable. While we've had our failings. And that direction would be more free to do what's right for those goals, including doing something enabling great ideas. There's ample potential, well, at least until things started going up in flames, which was never the plan, to still have Jolla brand represent that. But SailfishOS took priority for most of time, to keep the development sustainable. Software is super expensive to develop.

I resigned earlier this month to become my own company again, while being able to support both Jolla and SailfishOS agendas; with my primary focus on Jolla angle (did anybody notice I was at Slush?) and taking that further (naturally, that may be complicated today) And also be able to push crazy open source projects without it being connected with a corporate agenda.

It's clear that whatever comes next and is disruptive software, has to be decentralized, made by the people, for the people, proper open source. And has to be sustainable. Hope to talk more about this as it emerges.

Honest enough for you?

Last edited by Stskeeps; 2015-11-24 at 19:04.

The Following 31 Users Say Thank You to Stskeeps For This Useful Post:
abyzthomas, acrux, aegis, billranton, Bundyo, Casanunda, Copernicus, delmar, ejjoman, endsormeans, Feathers McGraw, Fellfrosch, itdoesntmatt, Jordi, juiceme, JulmaHerra, m4r0v3r, Mara, minimos, mrsellout, nodevel, P@t, pycage, rcolistete, salyavin, Shadowdog, tealc, tortoisedoc, wicket, Zeta, ZogG

pycage | # 225 | 2015-11-24, 19:02 | Report

In an alternative history, we wouldn't have tablets, but the netbook hype would have continued and the devices became better and better. I'd have a 10" inch netbook with eInk display running (MeeGo?) Linux with a battery that lasted for weeks.
Instead I now have a 10" netbook (that originally came with MeeGo but now runs Elementary) with TN panel and a noisy fan running Linux and a battery that lasts for two hours if lucky...

And a tablet that I have to charge every two or three days but cannot do real work with.

The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to pycage For This Useful Post:
Feathers McGraw, itdoesntmatt, minimos, pichlo, rcolistete, Shadowdog, ste-phan

itdoesntmatt | # 226 | 2015-11-24, 19:04 | Report

and stskeep if it is possible to know, opening or not opening sailfish os UI (silica) was an internal vivid discussion? you were blocked by investors? only curiosity but of course, reply only if you can and want.

the second question is instead requiring a reply either if you want or not (ahahaha, i am joking, but really i hope you will reply). what about Nemo mobile project? is it still going on and are you still going to support it? What do you think we could do to support it? (donations maybe?)

Last edited by itdoesntmatt; 2015-11-24 at 19:16.

The Following User Says Thank You to itdoesntmatt For This Useful Post:
juiceme

javispedro | # 227 | 2015-11-24, 20:10 | Report

Originally Posted by pycage View Post

Instead I now have a 10" netbook (that originally came with MeeGo but now runs Elementary) with TN panel and a noisy fan running Linux and a battery that lasts for two hours if lucky...

If that's the Dublin Ideapad, please, do the world a favor and burn it with fire! Or nuke it from orbit!

I've never seen a better example of a reasonable idea ruined by the poorest execution possible. I mean, swivable screen with sth like 0.1deg viewing angle????

Originally Posted by pycage View Post

In an alternative history, we wouldn't have tablets, but the netbook hype would have continued and the devices became better and better.

I'd would said that hybrids are basically the realization of that dream, today. They're small (a rare thing these days), quite portable, decent batteries, low power CoreMs/Atoms, and most even with unlocked bootloader out of the box.

As I mentioned on an earlier page, this is another of the reasons I now have a Surface running Gentoo and have all but abandoned the "mobile computing" dream.

My dinosaur dream:
I'd still probably buy something sized like a 3DS XL, as long as it ran full x86_64 and thus I could reuse my favourite PC OS/distro on it without much work. Input methods: trackpoint, stylus, keyboards.

Last edited by javispedro; 2015-11-24 at 20:16.

The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to javispedro For This Useful Post:
Copernicus, endsormeans, juiceme, rcolistete

Dave999 | # 228 | 2015-11-24, 20:35 | Report

Did you ever think that naming was more important than you think and that you underestimated the badness of the name selected?

I would name the phone and the tablet something like jPhone and jPad, Sail Phone Sail tab or what ever you could come up with other than jolla phone or jolla or what ever it's called officially. Jolla phone and jolla tablet sounds like an internal name. Did you ever discuss naming?

If you didn't I would name it sail phone in this universe.

Last edited by Dave999; 2015-11-24 at 20:41.

pycage | # 229 | 2015-11-24, 20:37 | Report

Originally Posted by javispedro View Post

If that's the Dublin Ideapad, please, do the world a favor and burn it with fire! Or nuke it from orbit!

No, I assure you it's not.

It's the Asus x101, pretty much the only netbook that was sold with MeeGo preinstalled a few days before Intel killed MeeGo. I like its formfactor so I'm still using it for lightweight stuff. If only the battery lasted longer...

smoku | # 230 | 2015-11-24, 21:03 | Report

Originally Posted by javispedro View Post

My dinosaur dream:
I'd still probably buy something sized like a 3DS XL, as long as it ran full x86_64 and thus I could reuse my favourite PC OS/distro on it without much work. Input methods: trackpoint, stylus, keyboards.

Check Sony VGN-UX.

The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to smoku For This Useful Post:
endsormeans, Feathers McGraw, minimos