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2008-03-24
, 23:43
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Posts: 4,930 |
Thanked: 2,272 times |
Joined on Oct 2007
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#22
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Originally Posted by Eugenia
I'm not sure how much of that kind of state is preserved; as I understand, some (at least) is from OS2008 forward. But you're home free with the later versions. "Should" is a strong word, but it does seem a long time in coming.
>Upgrading to any later versions will be done (as I understand it) through package manager.
This is good to hear. But it's something that should have already been done, as we are in the third major iteration of the OS. I don't want just my apps to be backed up, I want everything to be exactly as it was before, after the upgrade reboot. My applets' positions, my preferences for the third party apps etc.
>Anyone really like the x86 architecture?
I do. I also like how Windows XP is well equipped to run older Windows apps and even DOS apps which are important for some old businesses. I dislike Linux's carelessness of breaking APIs and ABIs all too often and sometimes for no good reason, and I also dislike Mac OS X's ease too (OSX is not very compatible with itself either, at least 20%-30% of apps fail when upgrade to a new major version, especially drivers -- my husband is forced to stay on 10.3.9 because of his 3 large printers and 3 film scanners that don't work well or at all on newer versions of OSX). Vista on the other hand has problems with compatibility too, which is why I am still on XP and I am not going to move away from it (I use XP for my Creative Commons videography editing). I use Linux and OSX too for my other work.
x86 memory management is a mess because of efforts to maintain compatibility with certain inherited wierdnesses.
As long as you don't write system-level assembly, or a compiler whose job it is to produce it, you'd never experience that, and it does seem (from the top) as good a platform as any other.
Edit: In case you care to read more, here is an article on x86 memory cruft.
Last edited by Benson; 2008-03-24 at 23:50.
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2008-03-24
, 23:56
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Posts: 18 |
Thanked: 8 times |
Joined on Mar 2008
@ Foster City, CA, USA
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#23
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Actually, my first job out of college was on an AI project written in x86 assembly. So I do know what you mean. But I don't program in asm anymore, so it doesn't affect me. If I write a line of code anymore it would be C# or at the very least C++.
I mean, sure, looking at the x86 platform from the hardware engineer or low level software guy, sure it's a pain in the butt. But I am not one of these guys. I don't care about the difficulties they had to go through to make it work. As long as it ultimately works, I am good with it.
I am sorry for not taking the geek approach on it, but I am over that part of geekiness. There was a time that I had 12 OSes on a single PC. There was a time when SGI loaned me that $20,000 IRIX machine for 2 months and I would geek out with it until 4 AM.
But I've had it. If it doesn't work as I expect it, *as a Joe User*, I don't bother with it. That's how 99% of the computer/mobile users are too. I decided to go with the flow because I grew older, and my patience was wearing thin. This is why I don't like platforms that add more work and complicate my daily life *as a user*. This is why I dislike compatibilities problems, because they are added work.
BTW, I am fully aware that "user easiness" means "engineer difficulty". For something to stay compatible it requires extra engineering effort. But you know, I am not really interested in hearing out these difficulties, cause users don't care (I know my electrician brother doesn't, or my house builder father). You see, the darn thing cost $400. This "extra work" that the engineers did, should be included in that price. And if not, add an extra $30 to the price. I much rather PAY beforehand a few extra dollars for extra engineering rather than pay later with my time and my sanity cursing on the thing.
Again, I don't mind breaking compatibility between their first try and the second, or after lots of years, but breaking again on the second and third try within a year, I found that way too much, and I truly believe it hurt their business. When I first heard that they will break compatibility again, I was really sad about it because I had high hopes for their success in a more broad consumer market.
Last edited by Eugenia; 2008-03-25 at 00:04.
I mean, sure, looking at the x86 platform from the hardware engineer or low level software guy, sure it's a pain in the butt. But I am not one of these guys. I don't care about the difficulties they had to go through to make it work. As long as it ultimately works, I am good with it.
I am sorry for not taking the geek approach on it, but I am over that part of geekiness. There was a time that I had 12 OSes on a single PC. There was a time when SGI loaned me that $20,000 IRIX machine for 2 months and I would geek out with it until 4 AM.
But I've had it. If it doesn't work as I expect it, *as a Joe User*, I don't bother with it. That's how 99% of the computer/mobile users are too. I decided to go with the flow because I grew older, and my patience was wearing thin. This is why I don't like platforms that add more work and complicate my daily life *as a user*. This is why I dislike compatibilities problems, because they are added work.
BTW, I am fully aware that "user easiness" means "engineer difficulty". For something to stay compatible it requires extra engineering effort. But you know, I am not really interested in hearing out these difficulties, cause users don't care (I know my electrician brother doesn't, or my house builder father). You see, the darn thing cost $400. This "extra work" that the engineers did, should be included in that price. And if not, add an extra $30 to the price. I much rather PAY beforehand a few extra dollars for extra engineering rather than pay later with my time and my sanity cursing on the thing.
Again, I don't mind breaking compatibility between their first try and the second, or after lots of years, but breaking again on the second and third try within a year, I found that way too much, and I truly believe it hurt their business. When I first heard that they will break compatibility again, I was really sad about it because I had high hopes for their success in a more broad consumer market.
Last edited by Eugenia; 2008-03-25 at 00:04.
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2008-03-25
, 01:15
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Posts: 5,478 |
Thanked: 5,222 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ St. Petersburg, FL
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#24
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Originally Posted by Eugenia
Blame the upstream folks, not Nokia. Declaring the API as "stable" on OS2007 would leave us with GTK 2.6 and major breaks between maemo and upstream. OS2008 brought us inline with upstream (with GTK 2.10). That means much easier porting for developers (look at the Transmission port) and more applications available for the enduser.
I don't fundamentally disagree with this. What I dislike is that we have had three different iterations of the software that all was package/API incompatible with the other ones. And all of that in LESS than 3 years!!! That's just too much to bare as a user, or as a developer. When the N800 came out with OS2007, the software should have been good enough to be declared API "stable" and from then on to work on keeping compatibility, for at least a few more years. Thank God that Nokia at least supported OS2008 on the N800, cause otherwise I would be much more unhappy about it.
Yes, it's quite true the device isn't ready for consumers, but it's not meant to be. It's a developer-targeted device which Nokia is using to help develop the platform. Wait for step 5 of 5 for the consumer-device.
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2008-03-25
, 01:17
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Posts: 282 |
Thanked: 69 times |
Joined on Dec 2007
@ Penniless Park, Fla.
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#25
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- first, please allow me to apologize for any disparagement... i will try to be more objective in my reading of your reviews from the viewpoint of a consumer using a commercially marketed device...
- i guess what causes me so much trouble is that these devices are nothing more than fancy toasters... vessel platforms running code that [for the most part, and more importantly for the technical user] works and works quite well...
- perhaps my expectations are lower and that i'm most pleased with base functionality?
- at any rate, life is too short, and i wish to publicly state here that i do acknowledge your long-running coverage of our technical market...
- so thank you for pointing out what i consider a most embarrassing display of vitriol, and i pledge to endeavor to be more understanding and not so quick on the email/forum 'trigger'...
regards...
- i guess what causes me so much trouble is that these devices are nothing more than fancy toasters... vessel platforms running code that [for the most part, and more importantly for the technical user] works and works quite well...
- perhaps my expectations are lower and that i'm most pleased with base functionality?
- at any rate, life is too short, and i wish to publicly state here that i do acknowledge your long-running coverage of our technical market...
- so thank you for pointing out what i consider a most embarrassing display of vitriol, and i pledge to endeavor to be more understanding and not so quick on the email/forum 'trigger'...
regards...
Originally Posted by Eugenia
I can only ask you of being more objective to the way you criticize me. I know my reviews are to the best of my ability. Besides, the N810 got a 8/10. How much more positive do you want me to get? But as you both you and I know, it's not the review that bothered you, but your prejudice of 6 years ago against me. And honestly, that's not fair.
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2008-03-25
, 04:04
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Posts: 18 |
Thanked: 8 times |
Joined on Mar 2008
@ Foster City, CA, USA
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#26
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Linux_author, thank you, apology accepted.
>- perhaps my expectations are lower and that i'm most pleased with base functionality?
I am an old user of gadgets, including Palm, Zaurus and WinMob, so maybe what I am after is the best of all in one.
>- perhaps my expectations are lower and that i'm most pleased with base functionality?
I am an old user of gadgets, including Palm, Zaurus and WinMob, so maybe what I am after is the best of all in one.
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2008-03-25
, 10:55
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Posts: 2,535 |
Thanked: 6,681 times |
Joined on Mar 2008
@ UK
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#27
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Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles
Unfortunately, 3.0's also going to break compatibility. And it's not entirely fair blaming upstream here for two reasons:
Blame the upstream folks, not Nokia. Declaring the API as "stable" on OS2007 would leave us with GTK 2.6 and major breaks between maemo and upstream. OS2008 brought us inline with upstream (with GTK 2.10). That means much easier porting for developers (look at the Transmission port) and more applications available for the enduser.
1) I can run a Gtk+ 2.6 app on my Ubuntu box running 2.10.
2) Nokia chose to go with Gtk+.
Companies choose their suppliers, and can't be absolved of all blame when that supplier does something "stupid".
Now, it so happens in both the OS2006, OS2007 and OS2008 moves that I agree with the choices made at the technical level regarding backwards compatibility; even if I still think Nokia/Hildon should do more to hide the pain of porting. <off-topic>Changing all instances of GtkWindow to HildonWindow? Why can't the computer do that?</off-topic>
Yes, it's quite true the device isn't ready for consumers, but it's not meant to be. It's a developer-targeted device which Nokia is using to help develop the platform. Wait for step 5 of 5 for the consumer-device.
Cheers,
Andrew
__________________
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org
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2008-03-25
, 13:11
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Posts: 1,743 |
Thanked: 1,231 times |
Joined on Jul 2006
@ Twickenham, UK
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#28
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I agree with aflegg on all that he says here.
Particularly on his disagreement over the fact that the n810 is not a consumer device.
The Nokia 770 was not a consumer device, but the N800 and N810 are cleary targeted to the end user.
And they well fulfill end-user expectations if the user uses and sees it for what it is meant to be: a sofa/travel/fun companion.
As for the Backup/Restore issues, much as to be accounted to bad developer/porter practice.
The backup/restore application can and should be instructed on what more it has to backup, as for this developer tutorial: Use of Back-up Application
We can't and should not blame Maemo here, they gave us the tool. We (developers/porters) just need to use it.
Last edited by anidel; 2008-03-25 at 13:15. Reason: removed: "i.e. an N-series device" and added backup information
Particularly on his disagreement over the fact that the n810 is not a consumer device.
The Nokia 770 was not a consumer device, but the N800 and N810 are cleary targeted to the end user.
And they well fulfill end-user expectations if the user uses and sees it for what it is meant to be: a sofa/travel/fun companion.
As for the Backup/Restore issues, much as to be accounted to bad developer/porter practice.
The backup/restore application can and should be instructed on what more it has to backup, as for this developer tutorial: Use of Back-up Application
We can't and should not blame Maemo here, they gave us the tool. We (developers/porters) just need to use it.
Last edited by anidel; 2008-03-25 at 13:15. Reason: removed: "i.e. an N-series device" and added backup information
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2008-03-25
, 18:49
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Posts: 481 |
Thanked: 65 times |
Joined on Aug 2007
@ Westcountry, UK
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#29
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Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles
why does any of that matter though. Why should a consumer care?
Blame the upstream folks, not Nokia. Declaring the API as "stable" on OS2007 would leave us with GTK 2.6 and major breaks between maemo and upstream. OS2008 brought us inline with upstream (with GTK 2.10). That means much easier porting for developers (look at the Transmission port) and more applications available for the enduser.
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles;159702Yes, it's quite true the device isn't ready for consumers, but it's not [i
Where exactly does it say 'not for consumers' on the nokia website? I just looked - it didn't. In my local PCWorld there is a stand for it - clearly aiming it at consumers.meant[/i] to be. It's a developer-targeted device which Nokia is using to help develop the platform. Wait for step 5 of 5 for the consumer-device.
It is meant to be a consumer device, unless you can find something from nokia that says it isn't.
If you advertise yourself as a consumer device, you cant then say 'oh it is only a developer tool' when people say it doesn't work right.
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2008-03-25
, 19:10
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#30
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Originally Posted by anidel
By hardware styling and most functionality, true-- but keep in mind what Nokia reps have said about the evolution... GA's comment was accurate in that respect. Even the N810 is not yet the typical consumer device.
IThe Nokia 770 was not a consumer device, but the N800 and N810 are cleary targeted to the end user.
Just wait.
Originally Posted by tabletrat
There was an official announcement from Nokia stating exactly that. Unfortunately, Google is failing at turning it up...
It is meant to be a consumer device, unless you can find something from nokia that says it isn't.
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Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
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Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Last edited by Texrat; 2008-03-25 at 19:19.
It's simply not there yet. Granted, OS2008 is ALOT closer than any of the previous OS, which I've used, but it's still simply not consumer-level yet. Like it or lump it, when Nokia threw that "N" on the front of the tablet, it welcomed people looking at the Internet Tablets from a consumer standpoint.
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