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joepagiii is offline joepagiii
2008-06-19 , 17:54
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#31
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
You don't know about Patriot Acts 1 and 2?
or the new and improved PA 3...have anyone seen Southland tales...scary...
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Texrat's Avatar
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2008-06-19 , 17:56
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#32
Originally Posted by joepagiii View Post
or the new and improved PA 3...have anyone seen Southland tales...scary...
When we allow wiretapping to the extent that Bush demands, we cede the right to privacy.

That's one.

And yes, Iraq is a factor.
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joepagiii is offline joepagiii
2008-06-19 , 18:05
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#33
i keep angering relatives with the joke that el bushie dont want to give up the seat...usally with an attack scenario and yes it was from the movie southland tales...would be kinda freaky if something like that did happen...dontcha think
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2008-06-19 , 18:12
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#34
Originally Posted by lardman View Post
Over in the UK it's about £1.18/litre which works out at about $8.71/US gallon

Painful hey?!
I can top that: yesterday 1,57 Euro pro liter here in Germany. (ca £1.23)
 
Texrat's Avatar
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2008-06-19 , 18:19
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#35
Originally Posted by joepagiii View Post
i keep angering relatives with the joke that el bushie dont want to give up the seat...usally with an attack scenario and yes it was from the movie southland tales...would be kinda freaky if something like that did happen...dontcha think
Some friends of mine go a LOT further than I'm willing to. The scenario is like yours, in that Bush gets us into war with Iran just before the election and subsequently suspends elections. I'm skeptical (which is why I don't trust what politicos say)... but if something like that does happen (and it's just a step farther than Lincoln went), then that's the end of this great nation.

EDIT: maybe an explanation of my political beliefs could help some understand where I come from.

There are basically 3 types of people who run for office: pragmaticists, idealists and opportunists. I love the former. They do what's in the best interest of the nation, even if the decision goes against party lines. Fred Thompson is one example IMO. Idealists are easy to listen to but hard for me to follow, because they tend to ignore reality at everyone's peril. But I can take them easier than opportunists any day. Bush is a rank opportunist. So was Bill Clinton. McCain was a pragmaticist (it seemed) who disappointed me by changing into the emperor's clothes and becoming a Bush-flavored opportunist. Hilary is an opportunist just like her husband. Obama I'm not sure about.

Opportunists will say whatever or do whatever it takes to get power... ethics or principle be damned. IMO there are far, far too many in office.

Which is why I suggest voting for Ralph Nader.
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Last edited by Texrat; 2008-06-19 at 18:35.
 
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2008-06-19 , 18:31
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#36
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
Nope. More than a "few lies", etc. Everything presented was a deception of some sort (I especilaly get a kick out of them using a student's plagiarized thesis to present the case for war. O the irony). That's well documented by now.
I believe they stated a number of plain truths; it was claimed that the Hussein regime had a history of non-compliance with UN resolutions, for example. I think you hold an irrationally extreme position here.

I'm not so ignorant as to confuse the two, and haven't. Everything about the invasion was wrong. It was all to support the agenda I described above. No noble goal; just imperialism wrapped in "patriotic" rhetoric.
You seemed to slide quite freely from a discussion of the (allegedly fraudulent) rationale, and the resulting consequences due to current trends; I don't blame ignorance, necessarily, but to connect them with "especially" seems to imply a confusion of the two to me, whether deliberate or accidental.

There has been nothing sane about our approach to Iraq... from supporting Saddam in the 1980s to firing him in the 2000s. Read the Smithsonian article I linked. It's the starting point for the broader context.
I said there were two sane approaches; we took neither.

That is nowhere near what I'm talking about. Middle easterners don't hate us for our democracy or success-- that's just the crap spun for the lesser-educated.

The truth is that there are generally 2 classes in the region: the ultra rich and ultra poor. The former have made their billions selling off their nations' resources to the US. The poor don't profit from this and in fact suffer under oppressive monarchies and dictatorships. Thus they easily fall prey to fanatics who (ab)use religion as a tool to foment hatred. The depressed and disilliusioned then take up arms against the true cause-- formerly the British, now the US. Again, read the Smithsonian article.

I have oversimplified the situation for sake of discussion... but surely the critical elements are there. In summary, WE are the root cause of terrorism.
Wrong!

Why are there two classes?
Why aren't there two classes in Alaska, where they also produce a lot of oil?
(Hint: In Alaska, there's no state tax; everyone gets a state dividend check from the oil money.)

The depressed and disillusioned are led to see things that way, of course, but it doesn't follow that we are the root cause.

And since we only use 24% of the world's oil, what about the other consumers? Maybe the thugs wouldn't get quite so rich, but there's a large market outside the US; blaming us for buying the oil is ridiculous, since the gap would exist anyway.

If we developed our own resources (and no I do not mean offshore drilling) and stayed the hell out of other nations, they would have no reason to hate us. They would not give a **** about us. Indeed, we are relative newcomers to the experience... we inherited it from the British.
Perhaps, but as you seem consider economic actions (purchasing oil) to not be staying out of other nations, I can't see that as a realistic approach.

In this case, poppycock. We should not be "interested" in exploiting the oil of other regions. We should be staying closer to home in that respect. International trade is one thing, but when root resources like oil are concerned, it can only lead to the trouble we now experience.
You may not have noticed, but I disagree with the notion that controlling the oil supply in the mid-east was the reason, and so I'm not trying to justify it on those terms.

Next someone will justify US consumption of 24% of the earth's petroleum...[/quote]Well, what's wrong with it, as long as we get it honestly? A rather socialist morality (which I do not hold) is the only justification I can see for why any particular nation's consumption is "too much".


It shouldn't, but it has. "Support the Patriot Act or you support terrorism". You never heard that propaganda? It sure was popular here in redneck land. Fortunately many of the rights restrictions have been slowly struck down by the Supreme Court-- but people (particularly writers) suffered.
Excellent. Except that it's possible to invade Iraq without claiming that, believing it, or passing the Patriot Act at all. I support the Iraq invasion, I don't support the Patriot Act... I really don't have to be for or against anything on the basis of what administration is behind it, and I really don't find another connection that makes them one item.

And Bush has never had a foreign policy. No, that isn't hyperbole.
OK, I agree with Bush on plowing things up, but not on the Patriot Act, paying for old folks' medicine, or much of anything else he did not involving high explosives. Dodged that phrase "foreign policy", so is that better? I'm sure I'm much more popular with old folks now that I phrase it that way, but I was trying to avoid dragging up other specific issues.


Finally, regarding a more recent post:
"The end of this great nation"?

Quite frankly, I can't see it happening; even if it did, though, there's no indication that he'd get away with it. If he could, then the "great" label is revealed as erroneous, and if he couldn't, then it wouldn't be the end.
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2008-06-19 , 18:35
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#37
i havent studied history too particularly well but Grandpa swears it could happen...(87yr old ww2 vet) guy cant remember to put pants on or where he was for the last 40+yrs but he remembers alot of stuff from back then...Texrat it could happen...not too high of a probability but still conceivable and frightening.. good thing i cant be called back up not to say i wouldn't go...just may think twice..
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2008-06-19 , 18:41
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#38
Actually, Benson, I stand by every word I said... but again, I realize I'm not going to persuade anyone that their judgment is wrong. I had to learn the hard way, and overcome my own initial bias, to recognize the crap fed to Americans by politicians. Traveling abroad certainly broadened my perspective... and no, by saying that I am not claiming that leaders of other nations don't lie (I know SOMEone would pounce on that if I omitted the disclaimer ).

All I will say is read and process the Smithsonian article. Then decide for yourself whether to continue holding on to propaganda or start digging into the ugly truths. The latter is a troubling journey.

Oh, and you say "only" 24%??? That's disappointing to me that you would diminish the importance.

One nation. One fourth of the oil.

The other 76% is distributed across the globe. Not evenly, but then, name other nations that come close to our lion's share... and yes, 24% is. And we don't get it honestly. That's incredibly naive, sorry.
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Last edited by Texrat; 2008-06-19 at 18:44.
 
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joepagiii is offline joepagiii
2008-06-19 , 18:45
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#39
once you dig deep enough its all scary...the back room deals...and all that...
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2008-06-19 , 18:51
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#40
Originally Posted by joepagiii View Post
once you dig deep enough its all scary...the back room deals...and all that...
Exactlly. First we support bin Ladin, then we castigate him (I was going to say pursue him but it's obvious by now that has never really been undertaken). First we prop up Saddam, then we fire him when he's of no use for us. And some Americans excuse that ********. Unreal.

Anyway, supporting the Iraq invasion and/or continued presence means first willfully accepting the flawed premises used at the outset (even though the rationales sure stunk to me at the time)... and then willfully disregarding how many lies and examples of malfeasance have been exposed since.

Again, at this point I can't understand how even a single person could continue supporting the biggest fiasco we've gotten into since Vietnam. History will one day shame us all.
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