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2008-11-16
, 15:08
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#242
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Originally Posted by itschy
I understand why some would feel this way. I don't trust our representatives any more either.
I think they might feel pressed to do this to defend against their own people. The gap between rich and poor, powerful and helpless is getting bigger and bigger and as the powerful have no intention to change this, they start to fear the poor masses and try to keep them in check this way.
And even IF they all do work in our best interest, these tools that are formed now all over the world should never exist in a free country!
But what this comes down to is probability and practicality, as I said before. I don't believe the people claiming guns can all be taken away are thinking this through.
There are just too many guns in the hands of American citizens for that to happen. And while I'm cognizant of frog boiling and slippery slopes, I am also aware of tipping points-- and one would come into play here.
If the government started enforcement action on confiscating guns, then there would be a degree of rebellion. Military force would be required to suppress that. At that point even citizens with no "dog in the hunt" would protest. Things would get bloody-- and on a much larger scale than Kent State was.
The US government would be seen worldwide as just as evil as the regimes we have attacked for doing what we would be doing.
I just don't think we would reach THAT point. We have had evil people in office, true, but they tend to be sneaky. Overt action on their part would have repercussions they could not handle.
And remember: the military soldiers are humans, too. They won't all go for attacks against their brothers for long. There would not be the same polarization that allowed that in the Civil War.
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2008-11-16
, 15:08
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Posts: 3,220 |
Thanked: 326 times |
Joined on Oct 2005
@ "Almost there!" (Monte Christo, Count of)
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#243
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Originally Posted by Texrat
But surely the intended use of a gun (for a normal person, that is) is not to randomly kill people off? It is to be an instrument of deterrent in home and personal defense.
No. That is another inappropriate analogy.
Try to find one where the intended use is the same or close.
__________________
Watch out Nokia, Pandora's box has opened (sorta)...
I do love explaining cryptic sigs, but for the impatient: http://www.openpandora.org/
Watch out Nokia, Pandora's box has opened (sorta)...
I do love explaining cryptic sigs, but for the impatient: http://www.openpandora.org/
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2008-11-16
, 15:10
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#244
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Originally Posted by Karel Jansens
Just like a car, right?
But surely the intended use of a gun (for a normal person, that is) is not to randomly kill people off? It is to be an instrument of deterrent in home and personal defense.
Come on Karel, did you even think before typing?
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2008-11-16
, 15:11
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Posts: 5,795 |
Thanked: 3,151 times |
Joined on Feb 2007
@ Agoura Hills Calif
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#245
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Now we're talking about the motivation of the war in Iraq?
First of all, it is always misleading to talk about the motivation of any group of people. There is no one motivation. People have a bunch of ideas and manage to agree on a course of action.
As is the case with many ideologues (see this thread we are in), the Bush administration was living in a dream world. I think they actually believed: (a) establishing a Santa Monica-style democracy in Iraq would have a ripple effect throughout the region, as other countries would want to emulate the idyllic government in Iraq; (b) they really believed it would be a cakewalk, so why not?, and (c) the rules of war had changed, and they didn't need as many troops as those pessimists and naysayers in the military said they did, because shock and awe meant you could do the whole thing on a shoestring. Besides, (d) the presence of wmds provided a convenient pretext for the invasion.
Unfortunately for us in the US, the real world doesn't follow theory very well, especially when the theory is much simpler than the reality.
Though it would have been much easier for us to wait for Saddam to die (see my comments on Franco earlier), now that we are in Iraq, I hope that we manage to leave the country we broke in a workable situation, rather than a nightmarish one. I am one of the few people who admired McCain when he said that he didn't care if we stayed in Iraq for a hundred years, though I of course voted against him anyway.
First of all, it is always misleading to talk about the motivation of any group of people. There is no one motivation. People have a bunch of ideas and manage to agree on a course of action.
As is the case with many ideologues (see this thread we are in), the Bush administration was living in a dream world. I think they actually believed: (a) establishing a Santa Monica-style democracy in Iraq would have a ripple effect throughout the region, as other countries would want to emulate the idyllic government in Iraq; (b) they really believed it would be a cakewalk, so why not?, and (c) the rules of war had changed, and they didn't need as many troops as those pessimists and naysayers in the military said they did, because shock and awe meant you could do the whole thing on a shoestring. Besides, (d) the presence of wmds provided a convenient pretext for the invasion.
Unfortunately for us in the US, the real world doesn't follow theory very well, especially when the theory is much simpler than the reality.
Though it would have been much easier for us to wait for Saddam to die (see my comments on Franco earlier), now that we are in Iraq, I hope that we manage to leave the country we broke in a workable situation, rather than a nightmarish one. I am one of the few people who admired McCain when he said that he didn't care if we stayed in Iraq for a hundred years, though I of course voted against him anyway.
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2008-11-16
, 16:59
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Posts: 3,220 |
Thanked: 326 times |
Joined on Oct 2005
@ "Almost there!" (Monte Christo, Count of)
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#246
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Originally Posted by Texrat
You said safety checks for car buyers were a bad analogy, because even if a car can kill, it's intended use isn't that.
Just like a car, right?
Come on Karel, did you even think before typing?
__________________
Watch out Nokia, Pandora's box has opened (sorta)...
I do love explaining cryptic sigs, but for the impatient: http://www.openpandora.org/
Watch out Nokia, Pandora's box has opened (sorta)...
I do love explaining cryptic sigs, but for the impatient: http://www.openpandora.org/
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2008-11-16
, 18:36
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Moderator |
Posts: 7,109 |
Thanked: 8,820 times |
Joined on Oct 2007
@ Vancouver, BC, Canada
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#247
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Originally Posted by Texrat
Someone (a European colleague of mine) pointed out to me recently that American politics have a second axis, not just left-right; they also have the "republican" axis, which sometimes aligns with "right-wing" or "conservative," but often it doesn't; the Republican belief in small government and minimal regulations has some right-wing implications, but "republicanism" has many more implications, especially in the area of gun ownership and "libertarianism," that in other countries would be considered fairly left-wing. This has helped me understand the American mindset a lot more.
EDIT: and something else the gun extremists don't want to hear--- you're more likely to completely lose your guns under a right-wing regime than a left-wing regime. The left leans toward liberty (sometimes at the expense of order) while the right leans toward authoritarianism.
Benson sums up this (to everyone else, bizarre) American way of looking at things very nicely:
Originally Posted by Benson
Inflammatory hyperbole ahead:
The European people have largely chosen to have their governments play what I would consider an oppressive role in their lives. Of course they're not considering revolt, because that's what they wanted...
Moreover, it's not so much that we need guns to revolt, as we need guns to be able to revolt, and thus to temper governmental ambition with fear...
Indeed, I'm not at all sure that by the time revolt comes, it won't be entirely too late, but the continual specter of revolt must slow the government in its usurpations, as it has until now, and that is reason enough.
Government-run health care, child care, education, etc. seems somehow oppressive to many Americans. And should their government try to force such atrocities upon them, they always keep their hands resting lightly on their guns.
__________________
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qole.org --- twitter --- Easy Debian wiki page
Please don't send me a private message, post to the appropriate thread.
Thank you all for your donations!
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2008-11-16
, 18:38
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Moderator |
Posts: 7,109 |
Thanked: 8,820 times |
Joined on Oct 2007
@ Vancouver, BC, Canada
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#248
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Originally Posted by geneven
The president-elect of the United States of America wouldn't be where he is today if it weren't for one of the most revolutionary recent changes in the USA, which was entirely accomplished without weapons. It all started with a woman who refused to get off of a bus, and it has led to the election of a black president. Interesting how history works.
My further conclusion is that quick and dramatic revolution against dictatorship is not necessary; a slow and gradual struggle for freedom might be a better course of action.
If anyone is interested in this topic, and fans of using guns to fight against dictatorship might be in that category, I highly recommend Crane Brinton's The Anatomy of a Revolution, in which he demonstrates fairly clearly that an armed takeover of the government only results in the ascendancy of the military wing of the group taking over, and freedom suffers.
__________________
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Please don't send me a private message, post to the appropriate thread.
Thank you all for your donations!
qole.org --- twitter --- Easy Debian wiki page
Please don't send me a private message, post to the appropriate thread.
Thank you all for your donations!
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2008-11-16
, 18:40
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Posts: 3,428 |
Thanked: 2,856 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
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#249
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Originally Posted by Texrat
Lets try this... a gun can be used for sporting puposes and is merely a tool people use for certain puposes.
Just like a car, right?
Come on Karel, did you even think before typing?
A car is also used in sports and is a tool used for certain puposes.
A drunk driver on a crowded freeway can cause as many deaths, if not more, than any assault rifle. And in fact.. in 2005, according to these sites:
http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/f...tatistics.html
http://www.ichv.org/Statistics.htm
There were 39,189 vehicular related death and 30,694 gun related deaths.
So if we are going to control the sale and regulation of potentially dangerous equipment.. we should do it across the board. Especially with equipment that is likely more dangerous than the one you are arguing against.
Now we could look at the NUMBER of vehicles owned vs guns owned.. but that's hard to quantify... most gun owners own more guns than we do cars.. like myself - I own at least 10.. so if we were to add up every firearm vs every car on the streets you'd probably end up somewhere near the same.
Guns and Cars are merely tools. They are both the same. That's what people don't understand.. they are no different than screwdrivers or hammers.. just more complex.
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2008-11-16
, 18:43
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Posts: 3,428 |
Thanked: 2,856 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
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#250
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Originally Posted by geneven
Well Geneven... You and I are on opposite sides in the rest of this thread.. but I love this quote.
Though it would have been much easier for us to wait for Saddam to die (see my comments on Franco earlier), now that we are in Iraq, I hope that we manage to leave the country we broke in a workable situation, rather than a nightmarish one. I am one of the few people who admired McCain when he said that he didn't care if we stayed in Iraq for a hundred years, though I of course voted against him anyway.
QFT as they say.
Try to find one where the intended use is the same or close.
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net