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2009-04-27
, 16:52
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Posts: 5,478 |
Thanked: 5,222 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ St. Petersburg, FL
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#182
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Originally Posted by lemmyslender
Where, exactly, is the third application? If it's some random .deb on the internet, I'd say they better damn well not mess with it. The "top-notch" isn't so much a raised bar to create an exclusive club as a goal everybody in the community should be working towards. That's why we hire people like Jeremiah to help developers package their applications and get them to users.
Doesn't doing it this way just result in a larger set of "blesseed" apps? New user gets tablet, goes to extras, sees there's already 2 "top notch" similar apps, and fiigures why bother with a third? Make the "top notch" bar too high and you'll stiffle competition anyway, or just lead to the creation of multiple repo's like now.
Either way, 2 options are better than the one you'd get when you're bundling things.
The point everybody seems to be ignoring, though, is that, when Nokia's involved, it's not as simple as just "bundling" things. There will be certain requirements and limits placed on them that the community is unlikely to like very much. When you make your product a part of the Nokia experience, it has to conform to the Nokia experience.
Originally Posted by lemmyslender
If newbies never show up here, then they never get an opportunity to become community members. Now, I'm not saying that we should hamstring our product to get people to show up here, but the whole-and-complete out-of-the-box experience that Apple offers just isn't what this platform is about.
I'd bet that if Nokia chose from the "top notch" extras apps, a lot of new users wouldn't find there way here because they wouldn't need to. Ship a "bare" unit, and you'll get a ton of newbies here asking how to install * or which one of * similar appss should I use (despite any included instructions or stickies). Worse yet, many would feel the tabblet "sucks" without evn explorng the Extras repo (enabled or not).
__________________
Ryan Abel
Ryan Abel
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2009-04-27
, 17:43
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Posts: 1,950 |
Thanked: 1,174 times |
Joined on Jan 2008
@ Seattle, USA
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#183
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Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles
It isn't what this platform is about for you. Bundling won't stop people like you (or me or any regulars on this forum) from doing what each of us want. But that we want to tinker doesn't mean the Tablets can't be sold to the vast majority that does not want to tinker.
[T]he whole-and-complete out-of-the-box experience that Apple offers just isn't what this platform is about.
Like jolouis said, "one of the biggest problems with the NITs for newcommers has always been "What the heck do I do with this thing?"; I mean my brother is an exceptionally techie guy, but he was only interested in the tablets after I explained to him all the stuff that he could install and do with it beyond what it appeared to be on the surface."
I have a close friend who was a long-time high-level engineer at Applied Materials. Inspired by my enthusiasm for the N800, he bought an N810. He played with it a little bit, decided he didn't really want to bother with it in his free time, and returned it and bought an iPod Touch.
My girlfriend traded in her N800 for an iPod touch, and it wasn't until I saw her using the touch that I saw what she had wanted the N800 to do! And they were things I could have installed and tweaked to her satisfaction.
Nothing you have said shows the cause-and-effect of how bundling well-developed apps would actually hinder developers. You say that bundling "chosen" apps would discourage people in the open source community from developing alternatives or advancing development of the bundled apps. But I look at tear (competes with the provided MicroB), Advanced Backlight Statusbar Applet (competes with the provided Backlight control), Maemo Mapper (competes with Wayfinder), emelfm2 (competes with the provided File manager), the myriad apps that compete with the built-in media player, etc., and I don't see the innovation-killing effect to which you refer. (Don't get hung up on the word "competes" -- I just mean they occupy the same or overlapping niches.)
It seems to me that you have some sort of Purist notion that, were Nokia to follow it, would just be a way to shoot itself in the foot. Let them make something with mass appeal but permit the developers and the more adventurous to take it without restriction to new places.
(Really, GA, it's rather strange, you wouldn't be upset if Nokia were to eliminate the stylus and stylus holder -- which really would limit certain development for such a Tablet; but you object to bundling -- which wouldn't actually preclude any development at all.)
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2009-04-27
, 18:00
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Posts: 631 |
Thanked: 837 times |
Joined on May 2007
@ Milton, Ontario, Canada
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#184
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I can kind of see what GA's trying to get at with the bundling thing, as trying to bundle third party/other people's apps into your final product means you're now liable for the failure of any/all of those apps to meet customer requirements since they're part of your "sold product". Again, okay good motivation NOT to bundle things, got it... but I still maintain that there are good, open alternatives that achieve the same goals as bundling but without the issues. Just as always, give the user the choice... but the choices have to be big and obvious... and the users have to be made aware that they have the choice. I mean even if the damn box had a big picture of the app manager and said "You can install all kinds of other cool apps to do things like X, Y and Z" it would be a step in the right direction. And I'm still going to bring up the idea of meta packages or app grouping which I really hope will be vastly improved in the future, as right now it's better than it was, but there's still a long way to go before the average end user will pick the thing up and be able to find the software to meet their needs, let alone install it and get it working...
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2009-04-27
, 18:10
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Posts: 2,869 |
Thanked: 1,784 times |
Joined on Feb 2007
@ Po' Bo'. PA
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#185
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I see this as a giant "Do Over" for the Maemo community.
Maemo.org* this time can do, and is doing a lot pre-release. Much more than what was done before the N800 IMHO.
The advantage this time is that the FOSS developed by the community for Diablo will supposedly run out of the box, on a Fremantle device. This was not always the case with the software developed for the 770 NIT. As a result searches often turned up confusing results and simple answers to questions often lead down the wrong path.
This time around everyone who uses an NIT that runs Diablo can provide advice to new users of Fremantle.
Also the typical Fremantle "nooob" is not your sister-in-law or someone who needs the box opening experience to help justify their leap of faith and (major purchase) into a geeky world that they really don't understand to well.
I was at my sisters wedding this w/e and they are avid sailors. The rehearsal dinner, wedding, reception, and next day brunch were all held at yacht clubs up and down LBI. Family and friends were all from out of town or had boats in the various marinas.
I had my N800.
It made many new friends.
A whole class of potential new users were turned-on to what it could do and because sailors have limited space, it's size was the main attraction. Once they saw that it could bring up charts via Maemo Mapper, tidal info via gtktide, pick up the marina's or the many new WiFi hot spots, find and direct someone to the only open liquor store, many loved the concept.
However, after seeing my nieces and nephews entertained for hours with a few flash games, the tablet dropped so hard that the battery popped out and slid across the floor, and the fact that all I did was wipe off all the sticky finger prints, put it back together and it was good to go... had many approaching me the next day asking "where do I get one of those dang things?".
IMHO, the new users we speak of will be more tech savvy than a typical iPhone user and will know what they could do with the device...
...and BTW my sister-in-law still "couldn't wait for me to show up" so I could show her how to do something on the iPhone she has had since December.
* (Are we allowed to use an upper case "M" if we start a sentence with maemo.org or are we supposed to look like maroons to the outside world ?)
Last edited by YoDude; 2009-04-27 at 23:10. Reason: Linkage
Maemo.org* this time can do, and is doing a lot pre-release. Much more than what was done before the N800 IMHO.
The advantage this time is that the FOSS developed by the community for Diablo will supposedly run out of the box, on a Fremantle device. This was not always the case with the software developed for the 770 NIT. As a result searches often turned up confusing results and simple answers to questions often lead down the wrong path.
This time around everyone who uses an NIT that runs Diablo can provide advice to new users of Fremantle.
Also the typical Fremantle "nooob" is not your sister-in-law or someone who needs the box opening experience to help justify their leap of faith and (major purchase) into a geeky world that they really don't understand to well.
I was at my sisters wedding this w/e and they are avid sailors. The rehearsal dinner, wedding, reception, and next day brunch were all held at yacht clubs up and down LBI. Family and friends were all from out of town or had boats in the various marinas.
I had my N800.
It made many new friends.
A whole class of potential new users were turned-on to what it could do and because sailors have limited space, it's size was the main attraction. Once they saw that it could bring up charts via Maemo Mapper, tidal info via gtktide, pick up the marina's or the many new WiFi hot spots, find and direct someone to the only open liquor store, many loved the concept.
However, after seeing my nieces and nephews entertained for hours with a few flash games, the tablet dropped so hard that the battery popped out and slid across the floor, and the fact that all I did was wipe off all the sticky finger prints, put it back together and it was good to go... had many approaching me the next day asking "where do I get one of those dang things?".
IMHO, the new users we speak of will be more tech savvy than a typical iPhone user and will know what they could do with the device...
...and BTW my sister-in-law still "couldn't wait for me to show up" so I could show her how to do something on the iPhone she has had since December.
* (Are we allowed to use an upper case "M" if we start a sentence with maemo.org or are we supposed to look like maroons to the outside world ?)
Last edited by YoDude; 2009-04-27 at 23:10. Reason: Linkage
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2009-04-27
, 18:26
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Posts: 5,478 |
Thanked: 5,222 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ St. Petersburg, FL
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#186
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Originally Posted by GeraldKo
None of these applications are bundled, so using them as examples to refute my point about the harm bundled applications will likely come to doesn't make much sense.
Nothing you have said shows the cause-and-effect of how bundling well-developed apps would actually hinder developers. You say that bundling "chosen" apps would discourage people in the open source community from developing alternatives or advancing development of the bundled apps. But I look at tear (competes with the provided MicroB), Advanced Backlight Statusbar Applet (competes with the provided Backlight control), Maemo Mapper (competes with Wayfinder), emelfm2 (competes with the provided File manager), the myriad apps that compete with the built-in media player, etc., and I don't see the innovation-killing effect to which you refer. (Don't get hung up on the word "competes" -- I just mean they occupy the same or overlapping niches.)
Originally Posted by GeraldKo
I think, unfortunately, you totally missed my point about why bundling things is bad, so I'll summarize it for you:
It seems to me that you have some sort of Purist notion that, were Nokia to follow it, would just be a way to shoot itself in the foot. Let them make something with mass appeal but permit the developers and the more adventurous to take it without restriction to new places.
In order for Nokia to agree to bundle community applications, those applications are going to have to fit into the Nokia experience, this experience is not going to be the same experience you get with these applications as pure community projects. You are going to be disappointed by the requirements Nokia places on these projects.
To address 3 of your given examples directly, Advanced Backlight can never be bundled because it doesn't fit with Nokia's simplified user interface guidelines. It exposes too many options to the user, which is a problem both in testing and certification and in the user's experience with the product. Maemo Mapper can never be bundled because it walks a legal gray area by using Google/Yahoo/Microsoft's maps. Finally, emelfm2 can never be bundled because it exposes users to parts of the filesystem that could lead to rather sever system damage.
The only point that's really worth addressing in this discussion is what requirements Nokia would place on bundled applications, and it's the one point that everybody else seems to be dead-set on ignoring.
Originally Posted by GeraldKo
Really, it's rather strange how totally you've missed the points I was trying to make.
(Really, GA, it's rather strange, you wouldn't be upset if Nokia were to eliminate the stylus and stylus holder -- which really would limit certain development for such a Tablet; but you object to bundling -- which wouldn't actually preclude any development at all.)
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Ryan Abel
Ryan Abel
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2009-04-27
, 18:28
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Posts: 5,478 |
Thanked: 5,222 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ St. Petersburg, FL
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#187
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Originally Posted by YoDude
maemo.org is never, ever capitalized.
* (Are we allowed to use an upper case "M" if we start a sentence with maemo.org or are we supposed to look like maroons to the outside world ?)
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Ryan Abel
Ryan Abel
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2009-04-27
, 18:35
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Posts: 5,478 |
Thanked: 5,222 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ St. Petersburg, FL
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#188
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Originally Posted by jolouis
Yes, this is a large part of it.
I can kind of see what GA's trying to get at with the bundling thing, as trying to bundle third party/other people's apps into your final product means you're now liable for the failure of any/all of those apps to meet customer requirements since they're part of your "sold product".
Originally Posted by jolouis
. . . and these are the alternatives I'd like to pursue.
Again, okay good motivation NOT to bundle things, got it... but I still maintain that there are good, open alternatives that achieve the same goals as bundling but without the issues.
Originally Posted by jolouis
Making the Application Manager experience compelling and fun should be at the absolute top of our list. It should be well advertised, easy to get to, and fun to use. We need to make Extras as high-quality as possible to encourage Nokia to enable it by default and advertise it, and we need to help Nokia to put together a strong UX in h-a-m.
Just as always, give the user the choice... but the choices have to be big and obvious... and the users have to be made aware that they have the choice. I mean even if the damn box had a big picture of the app manager and said "You can install all kinds of other cool apps to do things like X, Y and Z" it would be a step in the right direction. And I'm still going to bring up the idea of meta packages or app grouping which I really hope will be vastly improved in the future, as right now it's better than it was, but there's still a long way to go before the average end user will pick the thing up and be able to find the software to meet their needs, let alone install it and get it working...
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Ryan Abel
Ryan Abel
| The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to GeneralAntilles For This Useful Post: | ||
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2009-04-27
, 18:48
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Posts: 5,478 |
Thanked: 5,222 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ St. Petersburg, FL
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#190
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Originally Posted by daperl
Is it really necessary to flame me for answering questions?
Yes, thanks for reminding everyone. We surely wouldn't want anyone going to the eevil MAEMO.ORG.
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Ryan Abel
Ryan Abel
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