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Rider is offline Rider
2009-05-17 , 11:27
Posts: 309 | Thanked: 51 times | Joined on Apr 2007
#41
I believe particularly with regard to ebook reading (including pdfs), the 5800 cannot compare with the N8x0? At least I couldn't find a satisfying solution when searching the web about that.
 
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krisse is offline krisse
2009-05-17 , 11:37
Posts: 1,540 | Thanked: 1,045 times | Joined on Feb 2007
#42
Originally Posted by Rider View Post
I believe particularly with regard to ebook reading (including pdfs), the 5800 cannot compare with the N8x0? At least I couldn't find a satisfying solution when searching the web about that.
Yeah, as skatebiker said (and I said too in my original post) Maemo is a lot better for software than the 5800 right now. And the N8X0's physically larger and higher res screen is a lot better for reading ebooks anyway.

The 5800 is the very first S60 touchscreen device, and the very first S60 5th Edition device too, so there weren't too many apps available for it when it launched. That situation will get better over time as more people buy 5800s and more touchscreen S60v5 devices appear on the market (Nokia N97, Samsung Omnia HD, Sony Ericsson Idou are already announced, more are rumoured).

Ovi Store should also improve the situation as it will provide publishers with an easy route to release software on the 5800 and other phones.

In theory S60 5th Edition is backwards compatible with S60 3rd Edition, and a lot of old apps will work on the 5800, but not all of them will work, and even the ones that do work aren't touch-compatible because S60 previously didn't use touch.

So for now the N810 and N800 are far far better for software than the 5800, especially for open source and freeware.
 
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benny1967 is offline benny1967
2009-05-17 , 14:19
Posts: 3,790 | Thanked: 5,718 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria
#43
Originally Posted by krisse View Post
Sometimes it takes longer for an update to appear on OTA, but most ordinary users don't care about getting an update the same day it is issued.

And I wouldn't call that a reliability issue, because once the update becomes available through OTA it continues to be available.

Also bear in mind that firmware rollouts on phones are much more complex than on the tablets, because phones have many dozens of firmware variations for different countries and network-locked variants.
well.... the nokia software updater or whatever its called doesn't ignore country and carrier, does it?

i just remember that when this software first told me an update was available, i canceled the operation and tried to do it OTA because i thought this would be so much smarter. i waited almost 2 months... until i decided it's not worth it, booted windows again and let the software do its job.

so it's not a matter of waiting another day or so....
 
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GeneralAntilles is offline GeneralAntilles
2009-05-17 , 18:09
Posts: 5,478 | Thanked: 5,222 times | Joined on Jan 2006 @ St. Petersburg, FL
#44
Originally Posted by krisse View Post
How is it then that I've constantly had the latest firmware on my 5800, despite never flashing it with a computer?
I don't know, but it certainly hasn't been my experience. I can't even check for updates on the phone.

Basically, after a few days with this device I've discovered a couple things:
  • Symbian is a joke. I don't know how anybody can take such a user-hostile platform seriously (the signed software is insanity, and I'm quite thankful for the centralized software distribution we have in Maemo). The tiered platform software for different devices is a nasty way to up-sell, and I've found that things just don't work very well most of the time (the email client chokes when opening GMail messages about 50% of the time).
  • Nokia's failure to sell phones in the US is completely deserved. I'm fairly certain OTA updates are not available to NAM devices (even though they were advertised on the website), but I can't be sure of this because support (both official and community-provided) is utterly useless. The horror stories about Nokia Care services in the US are further proof if this.

Bring on the high-end Linux phones!
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krisse is offline krisse
2009-05-17 , 19:17
Posts: 1,540 | Thanked: 1,045 times | Joined on Feb 2007
#45
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
I don't know, but it certainly hasn't been my experience. I can't even check for updates on the phone.
Maybe you have a faulty unit?

There have been loads of people who come on here and say "Maemo sucks - X doesn't even work - what a POS!" when it's some feature that does actually work for most people.

Or maybe Nokia simply hasn't made the NAM update available on OTA? But if that's the case that wouldn't be a problem with the actual phone, it would be a problem with Nokia's North American customer service (see below for more on this).



I don't know how anybody can take such a user-hostile platform seriously (the signed software is insanity, and I'm quite thankful for the centralized software distribution we have in Maemo).
Well that's what Ovi Store is meant to correct, it'll allow people to install thousands of items of software from a single application (and Ovi Store should be a LOT easier to use than the current Maemo application manager).

But I wouldn't call a platform "user-hostile" because of its app distribution system, as most users don't install add-on software on their phones. They don't regard phones as computers, they regard them as consumer devices like music players or games consoles: they'll probably stick to whatever is built into the device.

With Maemo you still get people saying "I can't use Maemo it doesn't have any PIM software", not because PIM software doesn't exist but because there's no PIM software built in. They judge the device entirely by what comes bundled with it, whether or not a better alternative add-on exists.


The tiered platform software for different devices is a nasty way to up-sell, and I've found that things just don't work very well most of the time (the email client chokes when opening GMail messages about 50% of the time).
I totally agree the 5800's Messaging client isn't suited to e-mail. In fact the 5800's email client isn't really meant for email, it's basically just the text message app with some e-mail support bolted on to it.

But as it's S60 you can install a third party client instead, for example Profimail is a very popular third party alternative.

And Nokia's confusingly-named "Nokia Messaging" is another alternative (yes I know the SMS client is called "Messaging" too but they're totally separate).


[*]Nokia's failure to sell phones in the US is completely deserved.
I don't think the US is the best place to judge Nokia's output, for many different reasons:

-Only a fraction of Nokia's output is ever released in the US. It seems to consist almost entirely of ultra-cheap models and the occasional sim-free higher end model, but most of it simply isn't available.

-It's not exactly easy to sell phones in the US when the US networks insist on crippling them. All of Nokia's first wave of wi-fi phones had to have wi-fi stripped away to be sold in the US. The European and Asian versions of those phones had wi-fi on all networks.

-American networks have been unbelievably slow in upgrading to 3G, and even 2G coverage in the US is pretty awful by European or Asian standards. That sort of destroys the point of many of the features of modern Nokias and Nokia services.

-American users seem to prefer more computer-shaped while European and Asian users want something more phone-shaped. Nokia's a European company so their devices tend to be phone-like. It's quite telling that Nokia's biggest hit in America appears to be the Maemo tablets, which are their most computer-like product since they stopped making PCs in the 1980s.


I'm fairly certain OTA updates are not available to NAM devices (even though they were advertised on the website), but I can't be sure of this because support (both official and community-provided) is utterly useless. The horror stories about Nokia Care services in the US are further proof if this.
If the problem is bad customer service, then it has absolutely nothing to do with the technical merits of the actual product.

Like I said before, customer service in Europe is pretty good, I've never had problems getting a Nokia device repaired or replaced, and it's always been totally free of charge. It sounds like this standard isn't really adhered to in America.

There have been lots and lots of threads about this topic on here, and part of the reason seems to be America's extremely weak consumer protection laws which mean customer support across the board is pretty crummy compared to other rich countries.

In Europe if you have a problem with a product which doesn't allow you to use it properly, and the maker or retailer refuses to fix it, you can go to a local government office and they will threaten action on your behalf free-of-charge. If the problem still carries on, they will take it to court with the bill paid for by the tax payer.

For example, I was nearly conned out of quite a lot of money by an unscrupulous landlord (who worked for a very large renting agency), and he simply refused to be reasonable. I went to my local office and explained the situation, gave them documents to prove what I said was true, and they then handled the whole thing from there on in using their own lawyers. I got my money back in full, and didn't have to pay a penny or put any kind of effort into it myself.

AFAIK something like that doesn't really exist in the US. If an individual or company in America takes your money and messes you around you're expected to take action on your own through the courts. (That could explain why Americans have a reputation for being quick to sue, because they often have no other method for getting their money back.)
Last edited by krisse; 2009-05-17 at 19:22.
 
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benny1967 is offline benny1967
2009-05-17 , 19:47
Posts: 3,790 | Thanked: 5,718 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria
#46
Originally Posted by krisse View Post
Like I said before, customer service in Europe is pretty good, I've never had problems getting a Nokia device repaired or replaced, and it's always been totally free of charge. It sounds like this standard isn't really adhered to in America.
I cannot agree here. I've had two issues when I needed Nokia customer support, and both were trips to hell.

First I had my 770 repaired. 9 weeks. 9 damn weeks, and I got back a different unit with large scratches on the cover. It WSODed shortly afterwards.

Then I tried to get Ovi sync working. Took them one month to find out they couldn't help me. It was hilarious:
Me: "... fails with a server error..."
Nokia: "... there might be an issue with the server ..."
Me: "... oh. Thanks. Now?"
Nokia: "Delete everything and start all over again."
Me: "Didn't work. Now?"
Nokia: "Tell us your firmware version and which browser and OS you're using on your PC."
Me: "Firmware is 4.22. Browser and PC are not involved."
Nokia: "Tell us which browser and OS you're using on your PC."
Me: "Windows XP and IE" (you need to do this, otherwise you get the "we don't support linux" answer)
Nokia: "OK. We forwarded the ticket to our technical experts."
Me: "So?"
Nokia: "They say you should upgrade your firmware to the latest version."
Me: "I have 4.22 and you know I have 4.22 and this is the latest version your software says is available."
Nokia: "How are you today? Feeling excellent I hope. You're right, 4.22 is the latest firmware."
Me: "My problem is still unsolved."
Nokia: "You could re-install the firmware. Maybe this helps." (After 1 month!!!)
Me:


Nokia....
 
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GeneralAntilles is offline GeneralAntilles
2009-05-17 , 19:50
Posts: 5,478 | Thanked: 5,222 times | Joined on Jan 2006 @ St. Petersburg, FL
#47
Originally Posted by krisse View Post
Maybe you have a faulty unit?
Faulty, as in it didn't ship with update server information and that information is apparently unavailable? . . .

Originally Posted by krisse View Post
There have been loads of people who come on here and say "Maemo sucks - X doesn't even work - what a POS!" when it's some feature that does actually work for most people.
It goes way beyond the OTA stuff, the software just isn't very well put together, it's not very pleasant to use and the platform isn't very good.

Originally Posted by krisse View Post
Or maybe Nokia simply hasn't made the NAM update available on OTA? But if that's the case that wouldn't be a problem with the actual phone, it would be a problem with Nokia's North American customer service (see below for more on this).
If this is the case, wherever the fault lies, it's still a problem with the phone (and thus Nokia's fully deserved failure in the US).

Originally Posted by krisse View Post
Well that's what Ovi Store is meant to correct, it'll allow people to install thousands of items of software from a single application (and Ovi Store should be a LOT easier to use than the current Maemo application manager).
I'll believe it when I see it. But, really, how long has Symbian been around? It's taken them since when to get reasonable software distribution together?

Originally Posted by krisse View Post
But I wouldn't call a platform "user-hostile" because of its app distribution system, as most users don't install add-on software on their phones. They don't regard phones as computers, they regard them as consumer devices like music players or games consoles: they'll probably stick to whatever is built into the device.
The application distribution, installation and security system is user-hostile.

Originally Posted by krisse View Post
But as it's S60 you can install a third party client instead, for example Profimail is a very popular third party alternative.
For-pay. Yeah, I'll wait for Fremantle's Modest, thanks.

Originally Posted by krisse View Post
And Nokia's confusingly-named "Nokia Messaging" is another alternative (yes I know the SMS client is called "Messaging" too but they're totally separate).
Be great if it worked, but it doesn't.

Originally Posted by krisse View Post
-Only a fraction of Nokia's output is ever released in the US. It seems to consist almost entirely of ultra-cheap models and the occasional sim-free higher end model, but most of it simply isn't available.
Bull. Almost all of Nokia's stuff is released in the US, it's just not often provided with contract.

Originally Posted by krisse View Post
-It's not exactly easy to sell phones in the US when the US networks insist on crippling them. All of Nokia's first wave of wi-fi phones had to have wi-fi stripped away to be sold in the US. The European and Asian versions of those phones had wi-fi on all networks.
Well, that, and Nokia insists on providing terrible support for their unlocked phones. Don't use the carriers as a scapegoat.

Originally Posted by krisse View Post
-American networks have been unbelievably slow in upgrading to 3G, and even 2G coverage in the US is pretty awful by European or Asian standards. That sort of destroys the point of many of the features of modern Nokias and Nokia services.
I don't know how much travelling you do in the US (I'd guess not much judging by this statement), but the vast majority of metropolitan areas in the US have perfectly fine 3G coverage, and 2G coverage is acceptable elsewhere. Either way, comparing places like Europe and Japan to the US is silly. You guys don't have anywhere near the landmass to cover.

Originally Posted by krisse View Post
If the problem is bad customer service, then it has absolutely nothing to do with the technical merits of the actual product.
This is an issue of the software platform, though.

Originally Posted by krisse View Post
There have been lots and lots of threads about this topic on here, and part of the reason seems to be America's extremely weak consumer protection laws which mean customer support across the board is pretty crummy compared to other rich countries.
Yet plenty of US companies manage to provide perfectly good customer service (I'll point to Apple doing a no-cost repair that totals out to more than the cost of the machine new on my 5-year-old G5).

Originally Posted by krisse View Post
. . . free-of-charge . . .
Ha! Remind me how much you guys pay in taxes a year? And how much more expensive electronics are over there? Trust me, you're paying for your consumer "protection" laws whether you realize it or not.

Originally Posted by krisse View Post
For example, I was nearly conned out of quite a lot of money by an unscrupulous landlord (who worked for a very large renting agency), and he simply refused to be reasonable. I went to my local office and explained the situation, gave them documents to prove what I said was true, and they then handled the whole thing from there on in using their own lawyers. I got my money back in full, and didn't have to pay a penny or put any kind of effort into it myself.
Yes, contract law is a wonderful thing. We have it over here, too.

Originally Posted by krisse View Post
AFAIK something like that doesn't really exist in the US. If an individual or company in America takes your money and messes you around you're expected to take action on your own through the courts. (That could explain why Americans have a reputation for being quick to sue, because they often have no other method for getting their money back.)
So your options are, pay somebody with taxes to handling everybody's problems or only pay when you yourself have a problem.
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attila77 is offline attila77
2009-05-17 , 20:50
Posts: 3,319 | Thanked: 5,610 times | Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland
#48
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
Either way, comparing places like Europe and Japan to the US is silly. You guys don't have anywhere near the landmass to cover.
I'd recommend refreshing your database on the respective sizes of Europe and the US
 

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skatebiker is offline skatebiker
2009-05-18 , 08:30
Posts: 542 | Thanked: 117 times | Joined on Sep 2008 @ 52 N, 6 E
#49
Originally Posted by krisse View Post


So all four times that I have updated my 5800 by OTA, I was actually hallucinating?

How is it then that I've constantly had the latest firmware on my 5800, despite never flashing it with a computer?

It's pretty much the same as the tablets, though there's no automatic alert about updates being available. You can flash it with Windows if you want, or you can download the updates directly onto the device. Flashing via a PC tends to be traditionally more reliable than OTA in theory, but I haven't had any problems with OTA updates on the 5800 so far.
......
Luckily, for the Linux users, you can use VMware Player for Linux (download it free, really free no trial, from www.vmware.com) to run Windows XP in it and install PC Suite and Nokia Software Updater within the VMware session. I reflashed my 5800 successfully that way.
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Rider is offline Rider
2009-05-18 , 17:01
Posts: 309 | Thanked: 51 times | Joined on Apr 2007
#50
Originally Posted by skatebiker View Post
Luckily, for the Linux users, you can use VMware Player for Linux (download it free, really free no trial, from www.vmware.com) to run Windows XP in it and install PC Suite and Nokia Software Updater within the VMware session. I reflashed my 5800 successfully that way.
May work, but not to be recommended.

I know of a case where someone tried the same with Parallels/Mac and the result was: the phone was bricked.
 
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